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INFO: Autobody and Paint Q&A

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    Posted: 05-February-2012 at 9:18PM
As one of our resident Professional AutoBody & Paint Technicians I asked if we could have a section
for bodywork and painting so our members who have little or no experience or even Novice  have a place to ask questions and find information about bodywork and paint and can learn about products, techniques and procedures.

We have many DIY (Do It Yourself) members who although don't do it professionally as a career
 have professional quality skills and they as well as myself would be glad to help with 
any questions you may have

So whatever your skill level is,if you have any questions feel free to ask  and I as well as the other members will try to answer and explain as best we can so you can understand and learn how to do some of the work yourself which certainly will cut costs on your repairs to your vehicle.


How to navigate this thread
all procedures I explain the title will be in large bold letters so they are easy
to find when browsing through the pages of this thread


Edited by 72 GTS 429 - 29-February-2012 at 12:55PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fordpower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-February-2012 at 2:26AM
sounds like a great idea.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote srwith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-February-2012 at 3:07AM
Hmmmmmm, Glad someone came up with that idea. Who would have thunk it. This should help someone like myself who experance is only with spray can'sWacko. I think my finger will hurt from pushing that little button all dayDead. Glad to see this.
two loves, torino's and bike riding. drive and ride safe.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TV 2M8O Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-February-2012 at 3:56AM
Originally posted by srwith srwith wrote:

Hmmmmmm, Glad someone came up with that idea. Who would have thunk it. This should help someone like myself who experance is only with spray can'sWacko. I think my finger will hurt from pushing that little button all dayDead. Glad to see this.


Need to get you one of these to alleviate the finger cramps....





It REALLY does the trick!! I love mine....

TV 2M8O OUT
JOE
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Project Blog: http://tv2m8o.blogspot.com/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote unlovedford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-February-2012 at 4:03AM
Hahahaha. I have 2 of those. Actually, they really do work.

I have had the finger cramps before (kept alternating different fingers and both hands) and the little arrow indentation on your fingertips. Best 14 dollar paint job around at that time. Ahh, memories.
Joe
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TV 2M8O Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-February-2012 at 4:05AM

Jeff,

Thanks for setting this Body Work Forum up... I will DEFINATELY be utilizing it in the upcoming months as I try and tackle the R&R of my drivers side inner rear quarter structure!!!
 
Look forward to all the insite and tips on how to get PROFESSIONAL results from all our membership for my upcoming repair!


Edited by TV 2M8O - 06-February-2012 at 4:06AM

TV 2M8O OUT
JOE
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also check out the many Project Update threads for photo's of actual repairs
legend onirot  aka Malcolm's 73 Gran Torino has some awesome rust repair photo's and even though he is not a professional Autobody Technician by Trade I can tell you this,he certainly has the skill off a Pro when he fabricates those repair patches from scratch with flat sheetmetal and cut's and bends it to shape to replace the pieces missing where he has cut out the rusted metal.

There are other skilled members as well like such as Psquare75,Eliteman76,Mule323,Grande Verde,Ron Earp and Yodaforce have done body repairs and or painting on thier cars and these are just  some that come to mind and I have seen their progress and work in the Project Update section.I appologize if I didn't mention your name and you have the skillz to do body & paint but I can't lest and mention everyone here but this just shows that there are guys who don't do it Professionally as a career  can do professional quality work,so don't be affraid to try it yourself and learn as you might find out that you too might have the talent and didn't even know it was hidden in you till you try.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-February-2012 at 6:54AM
Well as a response to the above spray can handle I will tell you this that Spray Can paints can add up in price to have enough paint to do a panel and it would be better to get a cheap gravity feed Spray gun either off the internet or if you have a local Harbor Frieght store they have inexpesnsive Graity feed spray guns that work well and no need to buy an expensive gun for a single project.
there are other brands on the interent that work well and are inexpensive and even a step up from HF bu don't knock the HF guns as I use one for my primer gun,that way If I forget to clean it out and let some 2 part primer harden in my spraygun i'm not worried if I ruin it as I paid $15 and if I can't clean it out and get it working again I can throw it out and buy a new one cheap.
I have however had that happened and just scraped out the harden primer and get as much of the particles out then fill it with thinner and let it soak then finish cleaning it later.
still works god to this day.just be sure to clean your equipment when your finished using it so it works properly the next time.

anyway my point is you can sometimes buy a pint or quart of inexpensive autopaint cheaper then what it cost you for multiple spray cans of paint.Say your painting a fender for example ust to put some paint on it to protect it till someday you get it painted properly.you might need
3-6 cans to get enough coverage and coats on there and then you have what usually is a cheap enamel paint which later when sanded and a auto paint is applied over top bites into that cheap enamel paint and wrinkles it all up and now you have a nightmare as it all has to be stripped off.
so why not save some headaches and buy a cheap Gravity feed spray gun as it doesn't take a huge compressor to use these types of guns as the fluid comes out even without air connected to the gun by pulling the trigger.The air is what atomizes the paint and makes it spray in a fan pattern.

Also I don't recommend using the cheap spray can primers to go over your sheetmetal or bodywork on the body as it is lacquer type primer and the automotive Uerethane paints don't tick to it even when sanded,trust me fond this out the hard way on a little dent when I was prepping a vehicle for paint and didn't have time for the auto 2K primer to cure as I need to paint the vehicle and get it done so the paint was cured to deliver the job the next day.guess what I had to keep it another day as when I was spotting in the inside lip on the bottom of the door I had tapped off the outside panel as I didn't want any overspray on the fresh paint and when I removed the masking paper and 2 in masking tape I use the paint peeled off the area where I had used the spray can primer  cause it was a lacquer product and used a Basecoat/clearcoat Urethane automotive paint but the paint stuck fine round that area and only peeled off on the spot with the spray can primer.Also I used all the basecoat color to paint the job and only had a tiny bit left to spot in the inside bottom lip which I used.I had no money to go buy more paint the correct factory color so I had to go into my paint cabinet and pull out paints and mix them together and custom tint a color close enough to spot it in so you couldn't tell.Thankfully I'm very good at color matching and can custom tint a color,but you see my point as why I tell you not to use them if at all possible.

It's fine to prime and paint small parts on the car with spray can but when it comes to the actual body,save yourself some grief and go get the auto paints and supplies at an autobody paint supplier and do it correctly with the correct products.It might cost a little but if you DIY then you will save on the labor costs which is also what makes taking repairs to a shop expensive not just the paint and materials.

I use spray paints all the time detailing out parts under the hood or suspension but when it comes to the sheet metal body part especially the exterior won't use spray can paints.

there are specialty paints for the trim and such and even for interior that I will use in spray can form but it is not just cheap enamel or lacquer paint but automotive type put in a spray can for easy use
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GranTorinoSport Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-February-2012 at 11:58AM
Thanks Jeff!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GTW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-February-2012 at 12:07PM
This should help me, as I have zero experience with body work and welding.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pikeapn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-February-2012 at 5:05AM
Like many others, the only experience I have with painting is using the cheap Wal-Mart spray paint.  How hard would it be to do a Kandy paint job like this: http://villainscc.com/Images/SFRandC07/images/RandC48_JPG.jpg 

What would the detailed process be for doing a quality job like that?

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Kandy Color Paints
leave it to professionals,only for experienced painters 

More then an Amateur could handle and better left to professionals like me.
Custom Paint is a whole other ball game and don't recommend it for a beginner or novice painter as that is experienced professional grade and the candy paint and materials is not cheap so it is better left to someone who has experience with candy paints.Even professional auto painters don't all know how to shoot candy properly, it's not like shooting regular colors and easy to get light and dark shades in it from not applying it evenly or Zebra stripes as we call it with light and dark stripe looking variances in the color.

This is one I did and I know what i'm doing so it looks awesome
it's a two tone candy fade and the transition is flawless and blends well as many don't know how to do it correct even when they can do one color candy good but there is a secret to doing a fade and I don't give that out for free,that costs money as i'd rather not have alot of people know how as it lessons the competition



Edited by 72 GTS 429 - 29-February-2012 at 12:51PM
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Originally posted by GranTorinoSport GranTorinoSport wrote:

Thanks Jeff!
 No problem that is why I requested we add this section so i can give tips to guys without alot of experience to be able to try and do the repairs themselves as the labor can kill you on restorations
 Now if they live close enough they can  learn or pay me to do it,but others further away might not know where to find a gut with my talents so it helps to learn yourself.
I have enough experience that I can become an instructor ad actually plan on dropping off my resume to the Vocational Technical School where I learned AutoBody.I wouldn't mind becomin a teacher if the pay was decent as it's easy for me to teach then bust butt to do collision work
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pikeapn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-February-2012 at 10:44AM
WOW!!!!  That Avalanche looks INCREDIBLE!  I really want to learn how to do that, but there aren't any auto painting classes anywhere around my area.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-February-2012 at 1:35AM
thanks,That was my first complete vehicle with candy and a two tone fade to boot.
I had done small stuff like motorcycles and some signs but not a complete vehicle.
I have enough custom paint experience to know how to do a fade and enough to know how to apply the candy and tat is what was important.All the other stuff I see go around with candy has stripes or light and dark shades and just looks terrible.I came out great and I was happy that was just done end of last year.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mule323 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-February-2012 at 2:01PM

Alot of today's urethanes look very close to candy and aren't incredibly difficult to spray. If you're looking for true candy or fades, Jeff is right on the mark, find a pro. They're a mega pain in the butt if you don't know what you're doing. They do look killer though. By the way Jeff, you did do a heck of a job on that Avalanche. Really nice fade.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psquare75 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-February-2012 at 2:23PM
Nice job on carrying the fade around inside the door jambs. No one does that (or wants to pay for it.)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-February-2012 at 4:54AM
thanks guys I like to do things nice.the truck was painted before with the same paint scheme but it looked horrible in the door jambs as it was barely covered and had light and dark spots along with ton's of fisheyes as they never cleaned the jambs properly. Under the hood was the same way but opted to paint that gloss black as it was not a chromed out show motor so doubt it will get opened at shows and saved on the expensive kustom paint.I did the jambs cause I had to as it was done before but done very poorly and with the Lambo doors it added a nice touch as you could see it all and matched the outside.It's not cheap though and that total cost was $7K for the bodywork and kustom paint job and that was giving the guy a break as I wanted to get some of my work out on the streets as all his friends kandy paint jobs had Zebra stripes and light and dark shades in the paint.
Normally that would have been a $10K build for all the bodywork involved with the huge wheels and the truck was a rebuilt wreck and had to redo most all the previous hack body work to make it somewhat right.


Edited by 72 GTS 429 - 16-February-2012 at 4:57AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-February-2012 at 2:47AM
Rick had asked in his progress thread about prepping his engine compartment for paint as he is having a new motor built and now it is time to detail the engine compartment as the car recieved
a color change to look like the Gran Torino Movie car and the firewall was not done at the makeover stage.

there are various stages of degree you can go and just depends on the end result and how factory concours correct you are looking for but I tend to like to use quality automotive paints
as I am a paint and body guy but some like to save money or don't have alot of spray gun experience or the equipment so they opt for the spray can method which can be fine also.
Durability will vary depending on what brand you use with that method.
Paint type's and tips

here I copied some recommendations to his question as others can benefit and find it here easily later.
Originally posted by 72 GTS 429 72 GTS 429 wrote:

well if you want to match the outside I say to  go with a Basecoat/Clearcoat Urethane system.
on the firewall.
If you want ease of one step then get the color made into a Single Stage Urethane where the color is glossy in the end.
stay away from flat or semi-gloss unless it is a good automotive  2k Clearcoat for the final finish which can be made flat or semi-gloss but why wouldn't you want it gloss as dirt and grime are easier to clean off a gloss surface and besides it blings compared to flat or low gloss.

Now on the inner wheel wells  and radiator support that stuff was black and either use a Chassis Black  like from say Eastwood Company or other brand or get a good Automotive Satin or Semi-gloss black as that is what was correct from factory,or go custom and paint them Gloss black, it is your choice but I find it better to spend the extra and get a decent quality automotive paint then go with cheap store bought paints such as Rustoleum and such.
Now people will argue that the cheap stuff is fine and will last just as long and be durable
but just depends on the level of  restoration your looking to get on what is better to use

Not everyone goes overboard with their engine compartments as they are not seen much unless it is parked at a show with the hood up but usually the ones who trick out the engine with dress up
components take some time and detail out under the hood and it pays off when you go the extra mile.
Not in money recieved ,but in the appreciation from others and if you ever have your car judged at shows as that attention to detail is what wins awards so just depends on what your looking to do
and how factory correct on which paints to use





Edited by 72 GTS 429 - 29-February-2012 at 12:46PM
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he also asked about primers


Primer type and tips

Originally posted by 72 GTS 429 72 GTS 429 wrote:

most likely your gonna sand it to get rid of any surface rust and such so you will have bare metal.
do not use a rattle can primer unless it is a self etching primer but they are not meant to be topcoated and should have a sealer or 2K primer over it.Etch primer is just an adhesion coat for bae metal as your regular primers are not meant to go over bare metal unless it is a DTM(Direct to Metal) primer which is a 2K primer that as some epoxy properties to it.

Epoxy is the best and it is a 2 part system on the most part which has to be mixed and sprayed in 
a spray gun but it is the only primer that is water proof and I have even sprayed epoxy primer  and left it as if done right it will leave  nice Satin finish and you can buy PPG brand in like 5-7 colors
If you do use an automotive grade epoxy primer I suggest you prep the part for paint and do a wet on wet as Epoxy is hard to sand so if you let it cure it needs to be sanded before topcoat color but if you let it flassh off to a tacky state you can put your topcoat color right over it before it fully cures and the color will bond to the tacky epoxy but if you let i dry to long it will need to be sanded first before topcoat,
The epoxy will act as a primer/sealer and the PPG has two mix formulas one for primer
and one for primer/sealer which is thinned with reducer to make it so it cures faster and the topcoat can be applied over it in a wet on wet situation.Anything you plan on priming with Epoxy and let cure mix it without the reducer so it has a thicker build and when you sand it it won't break throuugh if you apply the appropriate minimum of 2 coats.
There are less expensive brands of Epoxy primers and will do just as well and if it's being topcoated it don't matter if your using the more expensive brand like PPG DP Epoxy but I do like the DP as like I said it can be left without topcoat and works good on underbody stuff.
It looks pretty close to the chassis paint if you put enough on and give it the satin finsih as when you reduce it it tends to turn flat when it dries so if I reduce it to make it flow out better and dry smooth with no or less orange peel I put on more coats so when it dries it has the satin finish.
That way you can use one product and save on buying chassis black which needs some type of primer over bare metal.

Say you use the etch primer in a spray can over the bare metal it should be sealed with either a 2k
primer or primer/sealer.I just use Epoxy as the etch primer is not needed with Epoxy as it is meant to go over bare metal and like I said is the only primer that is water proof



Edited by 72 GTS 429 - 29-February-2012 at 12:46PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fordpower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-February-2012 at 11:44AM
Ok I drilled out all the welds on the rad support now what do I do with all the holes
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72BlackGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-February-2012 at 12:00PM
And you did that to accomplish what? Panel replacement? Rust repair?
 
Short version:
Generally when you remove (drill out) the spot welds, a replacement panel is then inserted to replace a rusted or damaged one and then the holes are welded up solid to secure the old panel to the new panel.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-February-2012 at 2:31PM
well I can't tell you unless you give me more info on what your trying to do
i'm not a mind reader,Need to know what Make model and year of car your working on and what your trying to do to give you proper procedures
Photo's are helpful to,to see what your drilling out and why


Edited by 72 GTS 429 - 28-February-2012 at 2:34PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fordpower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-February-2012 at 3:02PM
ok if I can figure out pic again will post I removed a radiator support from parts pinto and damaged one from my good car.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-February-2012 at 3:26PM
ok if it's  welded in core support your suppose to use a spot weld drill to drill out the spot welds as
you only drill through the first layer of metal leaving the under structure metal solid with no holes.
If you used a regular drill bit and through drilled it then your gonna have issues
.Purpose is when you put the new piece on there will be holes in the top piece and the back will be solid and you grind the metal around the wholes to clean off the paint for welding,make sure you grind any old welds smooth and use the weld thru primer like explained on the 1st page  of the Welding & Rust Repair thread,before putting your new piece on.Follow the instructions I listed and what you do is clamp  it in place then fill your holes with weld till the hole is filled solid.That is what is known as a plug weld then grind your welds smooth.If you through drilled both layers,take a piece of copper pipe and flatten the end with a hammer.Using a glove to hold it,hold the flat end against the backside of the hole and then weld your holes shut be filling in the hole with weld/The weld will not stick to the copper and keeps your welding wire from going through the hole as you weld.Grind it smooh and weld thru primer and then you will be ready to attach the new piece with the holes or plug welding and the holes on the other metal will be solid so now the wire will not go trough and jut fill the holes with weld till solid



Edited by 72 GTS 429 - 29-February-2012 at 1:02PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fordpower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-February-2012 at 12:17AM
used the spot weld bit went to far on a few. Copper that's what I need.Ok now to learn to weld.Might post pic its not a torino .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote woodpecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-February-2012 at 12:56AM
Hey Jeff,
 
Good idea getting this thread / topic started.  I am one of the DIY's with little experience on body work.  One major thing that I'm going to try and tacle this year are those $%^&&^$ rust bubbles under my vinyl top.  Some of them are very small and can barely be felt others kinda crunch when you run your hand over them.  So I don't know, but I might have to replace a small section of metal in the roof where it is really bad.  Luckily the really bad place is in a flat area.
 
I'm concerned about getting the trim off.  Never can seem to figure out how that stuff is put on there.  do you have an pointers on removing trim?  I don't have any pictures yet but will post some later after I get the top peeled off.  I hate to take the top off as I just got the car running good and can now drive it down the street and back.  What suggestions do you have for primer?  I hear some good stuff about epoxy primers.
 
A little about my car;  72 GTS, bright red, black vinyl top, sport roof, n code, c6 tran, traction lock, rim blow wheel, factory air, rear window defrost, rallye equip group, laser strip (missing). 
 
It's gonna look ugly for a while.
 
Thanks,
Jeff
 
 
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Winshield and back glass molding removal


for the windshield and back glass molding you will need a windshield molding tool to release the clips.
You slide it under the molding and it hooks the clips, then pry the clip open by rocking the tool onthe triangle or pull slightly to the center to release the clips from the molding but be careful not to snag the edge of the glass with the tool as it will crack the glass.
 the tools can vary buy this is one design and they are cheap


 now for the side quarter i'm not 100% sure but i think the moldings either pry up and have plastic clips or the may have a few T bolt clips also that you need to access from inside the trunk.I know the formal roofs have some T-bolts that have to be removed from inside the trunk.
Never did a fastback with vinyl so  not sure if they have any bolts from inside or just clips


Edited by 72 GTS 429 - 29-February-2012 at 12:43PM
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Joined: 17-July-2008
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote woodpecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-March-2012 at 12:28AM
Great information on removal of the moldings.  I'm a little more confident about removing them now.  Thanks fo the info.
 
Jeff
1972 Gran Torino Sport, fastback, bright red, 429
1924 Ford Model T, Tudor
1977 Lincoln Mark V
1967 Pontiac Grand Prix Convertible
1948 Buick Super Sedanette
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-March-2012 at 2:46AM
Good luck to all with their projects and someone else will have to answer your technical questions as I can no longer do it as I have to be able to edit my own threads and now I can no longer do that as 
I don't have the privilege of editing at all and have to make changes or correct typo's so if I cannot edit I will not be doing it at all.
Sorry you can thank those who complained about me as now the others have to sufffer as well
hopefully another skilled professional or  atleast an experienced member can help you with any
Paint And Body Technical stuff
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