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INFO: THE coil spring thread

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Eliteman76 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 09-November-2009 at 12:34PM
OK, after all the posts in a progress thread, figured maybe we should start a dedicated thread!
 
As promised, here are the OEM GTS 1972 spring rates:
'72 Torino fastback Fr.  Spring Code
351 CJ std.  (early)         4Z
351 CJ std. (late)         94
351 CJ HD         4Z
351 CJ comp. (early)         3Y
351 CJ comp. (late)         7T
429 std.         4Z
429 HD (early)         5A
429 HD (late)         8A
429 comp (early)         3Y
429 comp (late)         7X
351 CJ & 429 Police         7X
CODE    lbs. # of coils wire dia. free length
94 2030 10 1/4 .648 18  7/8
3Y 1920 8  3/4 .740 19  1/4
4Z 2116 10  9/16 .652 19  1/4
5A 2200 10  9/16 .652 19  9/16
7T 2089 9  1/8 .728 15  15/16
7X 2199 9  1/8 .728 16  1/8
8A 2152 10 .670 18  13/16

 

 

REAR SPRINGS lbs.
351 CJ & 429 std. susp. 840-880
351 CJ & 429 comp. susp. 900
Police car 1000

application   code
 std. susp-early  7S

 "     "                     A/C

 4Z
 "     "                     P/S  94
 "      "                A/C & P/S   4Z
 std. susp-late  7S
 "        "               A/C  94
 "       "               P/S  7S
 "       "             A/C & P/S  4Z
 HD susp  7T
 "   "                  A/C  7X
 "    "                 P/S  7T
 "    "               A/C & P/S  7X

 

 

CODE 7S = 1gray stripe & 2 red, 1908 lb.,10-1/8 coils, .637 wire dia., 18-15/16 free length

 

(All other codes, see table below)

 

All information listed is for a '72 GTS fastback w/ 400 engine

----------------------------------
For those that belong to the Fairlane Club of America, here is the link to my original posting there, and Jack Grice's reply:
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-November-2009 at 1:10PM
Great info!! Where did you get that stuff from?

Where it says, all info is for 1972 Fastback with 400, what is that refering too? I am curious what the factory codes are for my car, since it is a 1972 fastback with 400 engine (P/S, no A/C).

I wish that those specs would have included the load height, then it would be very easy to calculate the spring rates.

I think we can still calculate the spring rates, but we have to use a much more complicated formula:

spring rate = Gd^4 / 8ND³

G = 11,250,000 Torsional Modules for steel (constant)

d = wire diameter in inches

N = number of active coils

D = Mean coil diameter

8 = constant for all springs

The problem is, we have the number of coils, but we need to know how many are active (active coils are the ones not touching anything). So for example, if 3/4 of the top coil touches the top mount, and 1/2 touchs the lower mount, then 1 1/4 coils are NOT active.

We also need the mean diameter, which the diameter in the middle of the coil wire. We don't have any diameter listed for the OEM springs, but all Moog replacements are 4.04" inner diameter, so maybe we can assume OEM has the same diameter. So mean diameter should be inner diameter plus wire diameter.

With that info, we should be able to come up with some rough spring rates, as long as we can figure out what the number of non active coils (I would assume this should stay constant between different springs).





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eliteman76 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-November-2009 at 1:38PM
From the research I had done, along with Interceptor460, He found that a 1976 Chevy Impalla with a 454 actually had a shorter spring, with a higher rate, thicker coils, but I've never been able to get a set myself to test.
 
With springs...I've said this before...it's a matter of personal choice. SOme guys will deal with a dump truck ride, others don't feel the need for a super stiff spring.
 
Another thing to keep in mind...when you increase springs, you need to consider your shocks as well.
 
Andy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 73GTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-November-2009 at 2:00PM
This is a very interesting subject. I'm trying to follow along best I can, but the math is a bit much for me. I have been looking at different springs for my car and trying to decide the best choice. I want springs on the front and rear that make the car handle exceptionally well, but not ride like a truck. Mine is a '73 GTS that I'm putting a '70 429 CJ in. I got interested in the CVPI springs from Torinogts73c's comments on how well he liked these springs. I just don't know how well they would work with the heavier engine. I was looking at front and rear springs for a '77 LTD II wagon also. The numbers look good, but I'm not to well educated in this area.
Thanks guys for all your help!
Jim
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-November-2009 at 3:13PM
After doing some reading, it appears for coil over springs they consider two complete coils inactive for spring calculations. I am not sure if that applies for short/long control arm suspension. If it does, the spring rates are as follows:

Code     Wire Diameter     Number of Coils     Mean Coil Diameter     Spring Rate
94     0.648     10.250     4.688     292
3y     0.740     8.7500     4.780     572
4Z     0.652     10.625     4.692     285
5A     0.652     10.625     4.692     285
7T     0.728     9.1250     4.768     511
7X     0.728     9.1250     4.768     511
8A     0.670     10.000     4.710     339
7S     0.637     10.125     4.677     279

Even if the my assumption on the non-active coils isn't correct, this would at least give us a comparision on which springs are stiffest.

For reference, Moog lists the following Springs:

Part # Spring Rate

8166    282
8302    318
8170    360


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote crispy23c Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-November-2009 at 3:19PM
GREAT stuff!!  Andy, can you post the striping code table that is mentioned on the bottom of your post?  I didn't see it. By that I mean color stripe codes.
And...
Here is a link to more information and codes for the Crown Vic Police Springs.  Not to derail the thread, but I know that others here (like me) are considering installing CVPI front springs in their Torinos:
 
Link says rear, but it lists important info on the front springs too.


Edited by crispy23c - 09-November-2009 at 3:30PM
Chris P. '73 GTS FastBack 351CJ-4V Triple black


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-November-2009 at 3:28PM
Originally posted by Eliteman76 Eliteman76 wrote:

From the research I had done, along with Interceptor460, He found that a 1976 Chevy Impalla with a 454 actually had a shorter spring, with a higher rate, thicker coils, but I've never been able to get a set myself to test.
 

With springs...I've said this before...it's a matter of personal choice. SOme guys will deal with a dump truck ride, others don't feel the need for a super stiff spring.

 

Another thing to keep in mind...when you increase springs, you need to consider your shocks as well.

 

Andy


Well the stiffest '76 Impala Spring is Moog 6446 - rated at 514 in/lbs. It has a 4.03 inner diameter, .01" smaller than the Torino.

If we compare it to the 8170 Torino spring, we can use the load rate of 2375 lbs as the approximate spring load.

So, 2375 lbs / 514 in/lbs = 4.62 inches.

So, this spring will be compressed 4.62 inches with 2375 lbs of pressure on it.

Now, 16.77 in - 4.62 in = 12.15 inches

So, this spring will actually be 1.25" higher than the Torino spring which sits at 11" with 2375 lbs of pressure on it.

Maybe it was another part number?

I agree Springs are very preference oriented. I would like to figure out all the OEM spring rates so we all know what we are starting with. That way, we can all make better spring choices.

Personally, my goal would be to make my Torino handle like a and ride like a CVPI. These cars have next to no body roll and ride stiff but not harsh.
Vince

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psquare75 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-November-2009 at 2:42AM
In REAL Laymans terms, what does this mean?

In all of my cars, I always ran stock rear springs and small block front springs with a big block, for stance, along with full poly bushings in the biggest sway bars I could find.. My Cougar has Bilstein CVPI spec shocks.. I can stand on the rear bumper and bounce and the car doesn't deflect much at all. I never had a complaint on ride?


Edited by Psquare75 - 10-November-2009 at 2:45AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psquare75 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-November-2009 at 3:05AM

I'll throw more into the mix. You guys are dealing with the earlier cars.

the heavier 77-79 cars have even more MOOG #s

MOOG Part # 8544
Frt Susp; w/o A/C
 
Spring # Inside Dia Bar Dia Install Height Load rate (lbs) Spring Rate (Lbs/in.) Free Height
8544 4.04 0.672 12 2150 322 18.69
MOOG Part # 862
Frt Susp; w/A/C; Heavy Duty
Spring # Inside Dia Bar Dia Install Height Load rate (lbs) Spring Rate (Lbs/in.) Free Height
 
862 4.04 0.705 12 2250 396.5 17.77
 
 


Edited by Psquare75 - 10-November-2009 at 3:08AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psquare75 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-November-2009 at 3:41AM
uploads/573/springs.xls
 
I uploaded an XLS file I just created with all of the moog spring rates I found in an online catalog that uses 'our' type of spring ends.
 
Now I have no idea what to do with these numbers, but if you tell me how to crunch em, I'd be happy to. Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-November-2009 at 2:31PM
Originally posted by Psquare75 Psquare75 wrote:

uploads/573/springs.xls
 

I uploaded an XLS file I just created with all of the moog spring rates I found in an online catalog that uses 'our' type of spring ends.

 

Now I have no idea what to do with these numbers, but if you tell me how to crunch em, I'd be happy to. Smile


Those all have the same ends, but they won't all work because of the size. Almost all Torino springs have an inner diameter of 4.04", so they'd have to be close to that to work in our cars.

I made an Excel sheet that has all the Torino springs Moog lists for Torinos 72-76. Year catagory in the chart is the first year the springs are used, sometimes they are used in other years as well. The standard and CVPI Crown Vic springs are listed as well. If you look at the springs, it looks like the 72-73 cars have lower (11" approx) load heights vs 74-76 (12" approx).

I also included a small spring calculator chart on the side of the chart. You can use this to compare using different springs.

Use this page to find out what your "stock" Moog replacement spring would be for your Torino:

http://101part.com/coilsprings/ford/torino.htm


Find what the load rate of the spring your car has stock. So we'll use a 1972 Torino with a 429 and HD suspension - spring 8170. Stock this sits at 11" load height and has a 360 in/lbs rate. Now lets compare this to the 1974 HD spring because it has the heigher 411 in/lbs spring rate. So use the load weight from the spring (this is the approximate load your car puts on the spring) and enter this into the first blank box on the calculator. Then use the spring rate and free height of the new spring you want to compare it to.

In our example, we'd use 2375 load weight, 411 spring rate, and 17.16 free height. And the result is 11.4. So this spring will sit higher than the stock spring at the same load weight. So, although we'd get a stiffer spring, the stance of the car will suffer.

I hope this makes sense. Of course I am not sure how accurate these load weights are, so this can only be used as an estimate to help choose a spring.

If we can get some accurate measurments on the front suspension of the Torino, there is the potentional to get accurate load rates for an individuals car. There is a formula than with those measurements than can figure out if there is x weight on the front wheels, then the front spring will have y weight exerted on it.

Torino_Springs_2.xls

Edited by 72FordGTS - 10-November-2009 at 2:33PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eliteman76 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-November-2009 at 2:34PM
This is what I like seeing!!
This is good from the point it helps to consolidate the info.
 
I will have to check on the FCA site if I can get the info.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-November-2009 at 2:47PM
Originally posted by Psquare75 Psquare75 wrote:

In REAL Laymans terms, what does this mean?


Which part are you refering to?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psquare75 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-November-2009 at 3:49PM
Well. thinking goes like this. I have springs that call for a ride height at 12". Is it safe to say they sagged a bit and went to 11"? If thats the case.. I want 1" lower... so 10" installed height.
 
stock rate is 322 lbs.
 
I'd go a bit stiffer, and 10" installed height.. with the 4.031- 4.04 coils.
 
5428 works..
 
2650 lbs / 393 in lbs = 6.74"... subtract from free height of 16.83.. I get 10.08"
 
(2650 is the weight of a 460 in a 76 Torino... I guess I will use that as a guideline/starting point).
 
It's for an early 80s Caprice.
 
I don't want a go kart ride.. I always felt the best way to go was soft springs and really thick sway bars... combine that with thin sidewalls.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rtgreen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-November-2009 at 2:48AM
Here is some more helpful information for anyone looking to replace springs.
 
This is from Eaton Springs Website.
 
Spring Tech 101
72 Gran Torino Sport Q 4spd

1996 GT- H/C/I swap, SCT

1995 Bronco - 5.0 5spd.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-November-2009 at 7:50AM
Originally posted by Psquare75 Psquare75 wrote:

Well. thinking goes like this. I have springs that call for a ride height at 12". Is it safe to say they sagged a bit and went to 11"? If thats the case.. I want 1" lower... so 10" installed height.

 

stock rate is 322 lbs.

 

I'd go a bit stiffer, and 10" installed height.. with the 4.031- 4.04 coils.

 

5428 works..

 

2650 lbs / 393 in lbs = 6.74"... subtract from free height of 16.83.. I get 10.08"

 

(2650 is the weight of a 460 in a 76 Torino... I guess I will use that as a guideline/starting point).

 

It's for an early 80s Caprice.

 

I don't want a go kart ride.. I always felt the best way to go was soft springs and really thick sway bars... combine that with thin sidewalls.

 

 


Well, you're on the right track. The only problem is, these heights are all at the coil spring. Since the lower control arm acts as a lever, 1" at the wheel, won't be 1" at the spring. So these coil springs you selected will sit 2" lower than the stock springs. I am not sure how that would translate at the wheels, but I would think it would be more than 2" at the wheels because of the lever action.

I think those springs would work, but my educated guess is that they might drop the car more than you'd expect.

Edited by 72FordGTS - 11-November-2009 at 7:50AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-December-2009 at 9:01AM
I emailed Mike the "spring guru" over at Eaton springs. I asked him about the number of inactive coils for Torino springs. Because the Torino has one square end and one tangential end, only 1.5 coils are inactive. I guess this makes sense when you think about it.

So I recalcualted the spring rates for OEM springs, which are a little lower than the original numbers I posted.

    Torino Spring Rates             Â 
                    
OEM Springs                    
Code     Wire Diameter     Number of Coils     Mean Coil Diameter     Spring Rate
94     0.648     10.250     4.688     275
3Y     0.740     08.750     4.780     533
4Z     0.652     10.625     4.692     270
5A     0.652     10.625     4.692     270
7T     0.728     09.125     4.768     478
7X     0.728     09.125     4.768     478
8A     0.670     10.000     4.710     319
7S     0.637     10.125     4.677     262
91     0.628     10.500     4.668     239
92     0.628     10.500     4.668     239
7R     0.615     10.125     4.655     231

If someone can put that into a more readable chart it would be appreciated.

Also, if anyone has anymore OEM spring specs for any year Torino, please send them to me and I will calculate the spring rates.

Is there anyway to make this thread sticky? It's good reference for the future.


Edited by 72FordGTS - 02-December-2009 at 9:02AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote interceptor460 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-December-2009 at 5:46PM
 On my 74 460 PI torino my front springs were p/n D4AW 5310AVA . Also it had a lime green or yellow tag with the part number and the letters (SHE) on it. In my old TRW book this coil  is listed as p/n CS8336. The wire dia. is 4.04 inches and the wire is .720 inch thick. The installed height is 10.50" and free height is 17.12" . The spring rate is 449.7 lbs. and load in lbs. is 2975. I have found a chevy coil spring for 74 caprice with 454 engine . The TRW p/n is CS5552 inside dia is 4.03 inches free height is 16.22 inches and installed height is 10.50 inches. Load in lbs. is 3025 lbs. The spring rate is 542.8 lbs. and wire is .740 inches thick. I find it would be a good all around coil spring for this car.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 73GTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-December-2009 at 3:05AM
Originally posted by 72FordGTS 72FordGTS wrote:

Originally posted by Psquare75 Psquare75 wrote:

uploads/573/springs.xls
 

I uploaded an XLS file I just created with all of the moog spring rates I found in an online catalog that uses 'our' type of spring ends.

 

Now I have no idea what to do with these numbers, but if you tell me how to crunch em, I'd be happy to. Smile


Those all have the same ends, but they won't all work because of the size. Almost all Torino springs have an inner diameter of 4.04", so they'd have to be close to that to work in our cars.

I made an Excel sheet that has all the Torino springs Moog lists for Torinos 72-76. Year catagory in the chart is the first year the springs are used, sometimes they are used in other years as well. The standard and CVPI Crown Vic springs are listed as well. If you look at the springs, it looks like the 72-73 cars have lower (11" approx) load heights vs 74-76 (12" approx).

I also included a small spring calculator chart on the side of the chart. You can use this to compare using different springs.

Use this page to find out what your "stock" Moog replacement spring would be for your Torino:

http://101part.com/coilsprings/ford/torino.htm


Find what the load rate of the spring your car has stock. So we'll use a 1972 Torino with a 429 and HD suspension - spring 8170. Stock this sits at 11" load height and has a 360 in/lbs rate. Now lets compare this to the 1974 HD spring because it has the heigher 411 in/lbs spring rate. So use the load weight from the spring (this is the approximate load your car puts on the spring) and enter this into the first blank box on the calculator. Then use the spring rate and free height of the new spring you want to compare it to.

In our example, we'd use 2375 load weight, 411 spring rate, and 17.16 free height. And the result is 11.4. So this spring will sit higher than the stock spring at the same load weight. So, although we'd get a stiffer spring, the stance of the car will suffer.

I hope this makes sense. Of course I am not sure how accurate these load weights are, so this can only be used as an estimate to help choose a spring.

If we can get some accurate measurments on the front suspension of the Torino, there is the potentional to get accurate load rates for an individuals car. There is a formula than with those measurements than can figure out if there is x weight on the front wheels, then the front spring will have y weight exerted on it.

Torino_Springs_2.xls
 
Good info, but the spring load rates are moog rates which some are different from the factory load rates.
Jim


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-December-2009 at 4:16AM
Originally posted by 73GTS 73GTS wrote:

Good info, but the spring load rates are moog rates which some are different from the factory load rates.


Yes, that XLS file is for Moog springs only, not factory springs. If you see a couple of posts up, I have the specs for the factory springs (for '72 Torinos). The aftermarket has far fewer spring choices than the factory options. However, since it's unlikely to get factory springs anymore, we are stuck with using Moog. That's why you can look up the specs of the factory and see if the aftermarket makes one close to the original. Otherwise, you may need to get custom springs to match the car's originals.

Don't forget load rates are simply the weight applied to the spring at the load height, it's not the spring's capacity. For example, a spring with a 2500 lb load rate and an 11" installed height, simply means that when the spring is compressed to 11", it has a load of 2500 lbs on it.
Vince

1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car
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