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INFO: THE coil spring thread

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BackInBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-February-2011 at 9:28AM
Springs:
From my past days with my Mustang I ran with 720 lbs/in rate in the front.   Handled well and didn't ride to rough for the street.   Made up for the lower spring rate for Autocross with larger sway bars and Koni shocks. 
 
From a previous post reference from Eliteman76...stating run no less than 700 lbs/in, I would agree.   I liked the setup on my Mustang, but with these big Torinos I'm leaning toward 820-880 lbs/in in the front.   With the loading in the rear, I'm thinking 350-380ish lbs/in.  
(PS Poly bushing everywhere of course and my ride is a 73 GTS with a 351 Cleveland.)
 
Anyone have some track time with a stiffer spring setup that can comment.   It would help to not reinvent the wheel here if someone has some track experience.  
 
Shocks:
Any feedback here would be helpful.   Aside from the typical higher priced options like QA1 coilovers and stock setup with something like Koni....anyone have a setup that worked for them?  
(PS I'm trying to build my GTS to handle corners as well.   Trying for the high 0.8s in a typical skid pad)
 
Misc Comments:
Front:  Geometry looks ok with some lowering spindles maybe.  Can't go to low, 1" at the most, because the underside scrapes.
 
Rear:  The stock tri-angulated 4 link looks OK except the upper arms are really short.  This looks like it will bind under compression.  Anyone relocate the upper trailing arms or use a torque arm setup?
 
Sway Bars:   I can't find any aftermarket bars larger than 1 1/8" in the front.   This large a car I would think a 1 1/2" bar is needed.  
 
Sorry, but is probably outside the scope of this thread.   If people have more suspension discussions perhaps we should start another thread.   I didn't find anything regarding these topics.
 
 
-John
1973 GTS
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BackInBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-February-2011 at 8:21AM
Originally posted by Billy C Billy C wrote:

Originally posted by Rockatansky Rockatansky wrote:

 
"With its undesirable combination of biggest body, heaviest curb weight, and wimpiest powerplant, the Challenger performed as expected -- in last place."
 
makes ya wonder if Dodge even tried to compete in the handling arena?
Clap

Well, based on that article I could take one of them any day but every new challenger I have pulled up next to at a red light so far wants nothing to do with me after he (or she) sees my car violently want to twist apart with a few neutral revs of the motor. 

By the way, that new Genesis Coupe with the 3.8 track pack is wicked. Now that is a car that could out handle any Torino, any day, but I consider that a sports car and the Torino a muscle car. You gota remember what you are comparing.  I can fit more chicks in my Torino than some bone head ricer could fit into his Genesis. Wink

This will be my last off topic post in this thread. Cry 
Back to the springs..Geek
Check out Kenne Bell's work on challengers.  http://www.kennebell.net/superchargers/dodge/Challenger/challenger.htm
Those hemi motors have a lot of potential.   650HP with only 8 psi.  Some of the hemi's internal geometry was based off lessons learned off the old NASCAR dual over head cam hemi.  The DOHC hemi that Chrysler was developing to beat the Ford SOHC 427 before the rule came into effect excluding the motors from competition.
 
Agreed.  I can't make the Torino handle like a small tuner car with its short wheelbase.   I just want to build it to handle as best that it can and remain a fun street car.   The torino is pretty top heavy as compared to the Genesis or the like.   Lowering is necessary except I just dont have much clearance due to the low hanging headers and exhaust.   I dont like dragging the car over speed bumps, etc.   I want to keep it streetable.
 
I used the Challenger as a reference because it is a modern car with reasonable handling qualities that is pretty close to the wheelbase of the Torino. 
 
PS  Eliteman76 had a cool idea with the new ford 6.2L mod motor as a transplant, but that is for another thread.  Wink
 
Back to the thread topic of springs...quick summary.
It looks like most are swapping to the CV front springs (~710lbs/in) and the wagon springs for the rear or a stock spring rate.   I'm also assuming people are running with 1 1/8" front sway bar and the 7/8" rear bar with those springs??


Edited by BackInBlack - 15-February-2011 at 8:36AM
-John
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BackInBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-February-2011 at 2:25AM
Originally posted by cowboyupdjcarl cowboyupdjcarl wrote:

All this talk on the front springs...
 
What about the REARS...
 
What MOOG Cargo Coils is anyone running?
More info I found in the MOOG book at O'Reilly's and on the phone with Andy
REAR SPRINGS
    Free HT Install HT Rate/Weight Price
72-79 ALL CC801 14.5 9.75 192/870 95
Wagon CC803 14.19 9.75 305/1330  
75 torino CC807 15.25 ?? 180/1000 114.99
73-76 Wagon CC811   10.5 315/1350 81.99
79 and newer ALL CC819   12.69 200/780 95
 
Looks like CC801will keep stock height, 803 will be ROCK HARD, 807 might raise the rear a little but be a decent ride, the 811 is rock hard and higher,819 is WAY taller but softer ride
 
So I am getting a set of 801's for the yellow car that will have the wheels tucked inside the wheel lip, but probably need the 807 for the 3.5BS slots on "Ol' Brown" to give it a little more height and stiff to make sure it doesn't rub on top of the tire.
 
Rear:  (Additional info)
cc801   variable rate       192 lbs/in
cc803   variable rate       305 lbs/in   
cc807   variable rate       180 lbs/in
cc811   variable rate       315 lbs/in 
cc819   variable rate       200 lbs/in
 
Front:  (from previous post)
MOOG Part # 80090
1998 - 2002 Crown Vic
1998 - 2002 Mercury Grand Marq
Inside Dia Bar Dia Install Height Load rate (lbs) Spring Rate (Lbs/in.) Free Height End Type
4.04                            0.781                   11.75                     2034                       710                          14.38                      One Square End and 1 Tangential End
 
 
In the interest of better handling I'm going to use a stock rate spring in the rear.  I'm not going to use the variable rate springs and may have to order constant rate springs for the front and back.  
 
The front I plan on using the CV spring which is 710 lbs/in or order a 850 lbs/in constant rate spring.   I intend to keep the stock ride height.   Right now I have 4" clearance from the headers to the ground lowering isn't an option unless I build custom headers and use oval exhaust pipes.
 
Point of reference...I found a Crown Vic Specs built for Bondurant Driving School by Jack Rousch.  It used Eibach springs 1000 lbs/in in the front and 160 lbs/in (both constant rate) in the rear (stock height) with a 2" NASCAR style sway bar in the front and stock 0.7" in the rear.   Obviously, this is for track use and would be a harsher ride on the street which is why I'm backing off the rate in the front.  
 
Just FYI for anyone interested.
Instructor Car
1999 Police Interceptor Crown Victoria
ENGINE: 1999 SVT Mustang Cobra 4.6L 4V.
320 HP.
Full length Cobra windage tray with modified Mark VIII oil pan.
Emissions controls removed.
Custom Bondurant engine calibration.
Custom H – pipe with catalytic converters removed.
Borla custom dual exhaust system.
Custom cooling system including production 6.8L V10 water pump and radiator, engine driven fan with custom shroud and an 18” electric cooling fan.
1995 SVT Mustang Cobra R engine oil cooler.
Battery relocated to trunk.
WEIGHT: 4,800 Lbs.
TRANSMISSION/ 1999 SVT Mustang Cobra T-45 5 speed with carbon fiber blocking rings.
DRIVETRAIN: B & M Ripper Shifter.
Custom steel drive shaft with safety loop.
3.73:1 axle ratio with production limited slip.
FUEL SYSTEM: Custom 22 gallon racing fuel cell.
1999 SVT Mustang Cobra fuel pump.
Custom stainless steel and braided fuel lines
SUSPENSION: Front:
Eibach 1000 lb per inch springs.
Monroe Shocks with custom calibration.
Winston Cup style 2” diameter solid front sway bar with custom links.
Modified alignment settings:
Camber 1.8 degrees negative
Caster 7.0 degrees positive
Toe 0.0 degrees.
Rear:
Eibach 160 lb per inch springs.
Monroe shocks with custom calibration.
Production .708 diameter solid sway bar.
Production Watts linkages.
BRAKES: Production Crown Victoria disk brakes.
Performance Friction 90 compound race brake pads.
Baer Brakes custom steel braided brake lines.
Custom brake cooling ducts.
WHEELS/ 1995 SVT Mustang Cobra R 17 X 9” wheels.
TIRES : Goodyear Eagle HP Ultra 275/40/R17.
INTERIOR: 1999 SVT Mustang Cobra instrument cluster.
Four point safety harnesses at all four seating locations.
Six point fully integrated Roush safety cage.
10 lb dry chemical fire extinguisher.
Halon fire suppression system with four nozzles.




Edited by BackInBlack - 18-February-2011 at 2:42AM
-John
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psquare75 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-February-2011 at 2:33AM
I'd be interested to see what that sway bar setup looks like and how it could be easily adapted to our cars. 
Paul
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BackInBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-February-2011 at 11:46AM
I will post what I figure out.   This helped me figure out the approx spring rates for what I want to do with the car.  I will probably go a little lighter on the front springs (850ish lbs/in vs the 1000lbs/in) and go with a big front sway bar.   
 
Im just figuring out what I want to do.  I will probably get to the suspension brakes over the summer if I can survive the heat out here.
 
This is an interesting off-the-shelf Moog spring that might work for the front.   I might use this one and cut it down to size.
PN                             In dia    wire dia      load                  rate             install height  Free height
CC648 4.056 0.875 2300 870 12.75 15.25 One Square End and 1 Tangential End
 


Edited by BackInBlack - 18-February-2011 at 11:50AM
-John
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GA Army Vet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-March-2011 at 2:36PM
Question, my neighbor did the "bounce test" and the pass front shock is bad.
 
I LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE, and love some more my torino. But I want it safe. Ok the issue is I love the soft floating ride. I live in gov housing so there is alot of speed bumps here. With my back being the way it is, I can finaly get over the pain enough to go for a drive but going over a speed bump to slow or to fast can ruin my drive and make me pull back home. I have custom shocks that are adjustable for bounc on my truck. Even with that I have to go very slow.
 
How can I put new shocks and springs on and keep it soft? I will put the rearsway bar on, as well as stiffen up the back so I can burn out better. But I would still love to keep some float....  Please help
1973 GTS-351c C6 28sp axle 2.73gears (looking to change)



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psquare75 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-March-2011 at 3:24PM
Keep your springs as is, and get gabriel shocks from Autozone for a 73 GTS  That will keep it pretty floaty. ... the rear sway bar won't really change your speed bump ability. 


Paul
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BackInBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-March-2011 at 3:41PM
Keep, replace with stock springs.   Sway bars will help with with body lean if you want a little better handling.   Better shocks and sway bars with stock springs will give you better handling with a softer ride.
 
I like the ride a bit stiff...just my preference.   For a good ride....keep the stock springs.  Just my opinion.
 
-John
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GA Army Vet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-March-2011 at 4:42PM
Yea I know about the bar, I live in the mountains and its almost a must. Can you lower the front with stock springs??
 
I cant take a hard ride the vibrations kill me, I am not supposed to be in a car longer than 30mins at a time because the vibrations can cause nerve damage. I had this old 1990 buick park ave, with the plus seats and floating ride you could ramp a speed bump at 30 and not hurt!!
1973 GTS-351c C6 28sp axle 2.73gears (looking to change)



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-March-2011 at 5:13PM

agree, the more spring rate you have the more shock you need to control the spring

72 GT Ute
   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psquare75 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-March-2011 at 5:16PM
Larger sidewalls will help a TON.. changing nothing, other than tires from a 225 75 15 to a 255 50 17 made the ride like a truck.. 75% of 225 is ~170 and 50% of 255 ~130.. the extra 40mm was a cushion.. What are you running for tires?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-April-2011 at 5:52AM
Since we don't really have any clearly posted data about the OEM coil springs, I took the time to compile a couple of charts. Further I was able to calculate all the spring rates. The chart includes two rates for each spring because the diameters of the OEM springs aren't known exactly. I used a range of 4.00" on the low end and 4.04" on the high end (which is what the aftermarket uses). This gives two different spring rates (the low rate actually refers to the low end diameter, which creates the spring higher rate, sorry if confusing).

In any case, this gives us a pretty narrow range on what the factory spring rates on our cars were. I also was able to calculate the approximate spring height when compressed. Only the data for the 351-4V early competion springs is off in terms of length (but this doesn't effect spring rate).

This data should help those restoring their cars to original specs, as the aftermarket offers no where near what the factory did. Also note that the stiffest springs are not offered by the aftermarket, meaning we'll have to get the springs custom made or take exisiting aftermarket springs and modify them (ie cut them).

This will also help those looking to upgrade springs as it will let them know what they are starting with.

I attached an excel file. If there are any questions, please ask.


Torino_Springs_OEM_specs.xls
Vince

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BackInBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-April-2011 at 6:49AM
Thanks this is really helpful!   Do you have the years/model info for the spring codes?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-April-2011 at 12:50PM
Unfortunately, I only have the specs for the 1972 Torino. I got these from old posts, but the originate from Jack Grice at the Fairlaine Club of America. He got them from the Fords Master Parts book. If someone else digs up the spring specs for other years, I can calculate the factory rates for them as well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lynchster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-April-2011 at 1:11PM
I was told by Eaton that the factory specs for my front springs were 298 ft lbs. I went and installed 450 ft lb springs with a one inch drop. Now you guys have me reconsidering something in the 600 range.
Anyone currently running springs up front in the 450 - 600 range? What do you think of them?
I'm looking for tighter but turnpike friendly.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eliteman76 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-April-2011 at 2:43PM
Vince, I had posted the specs Jack dug up for me on the FCA site.
I have not sent him a message for some time...but I want to say from the original post, the 400 car springs were the only specs he didn't have.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-April-2011 at 3:42PM
Chuck

I have contacted Eaton, and they basically only have three springs listed for the 1972 Torino, just like Moog and all similar rates to Moog. They did say that they could make a spring comparable to a competition spring. As for stiffer springs, I know we have at least one member who has th 700 lbs/inch Crown Vic Police springs.

Eliteman,

I contacted Jack earlier this year, and he confirmed all the spring specs were from the Ford Parts Master Catalog. All I did was use a spring formula to figure out the rate (basically the # of coils, diameter and wire thickness are all that's needed). He posted the 400 spring specs in one of his posts on FCA forums (I joined FCA this year). When I pull the front springs from my car this year, I am going to measure them (wire thickness and coil count) to make sure it is the same as the info we have here.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lynchster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-April-2011 at 3:57PM
Originally posted by 72FordGTS 72FordGTS wrote:


I attached an excel file. If there are any questions, please ask.


Torino_Springs_OEM_specs.xls
 
Most useful, thanks for posting that. 
It appears Eaton thought I was running stock 351C 4v spring specs and I went for the competition springs. Since it has the late competition suspension I've got stock albeit shorter springs for my car at least.
I still wonder if I should go with something in the 600 range or if it will "skateboard" the car.
 
Chuck
 


Edited by lynchster - 18-April-2011 at 4:16PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lynchster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-April-2011 at 4:05PM
Originally posted by 72FordGTS 72FordGTS wrote:

Chuck

I have contacted Eaton, and they basically only have three springs listed for the 1972 Torino, just like Moog and all similar rates to Moog. They did say that they could make a spring comparable to a competition spring. As for stiffer springs, I know we have at least one member who has th 700 lbs/inch Crown Vic Police springs.
 
I am kinda curious how the handle is with 700 springs up front. I read an article that the spring rates for the 84-86 police ltd lx's (small one) were running 600 / 200. 
As I re read your post I do recall him saying he would have to make mine, it's been a few years. He did tell me if I didn't like the height to call back before I cut them.   


Edited by lynchster - 18-April-2011 at 4:18PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-April-2011 at 3:18PM
Talk to Gary, Torinogts73c, he was the one who put the CVPI springs in. They worked out of the box in his 73, but I suspect they might sit a tad high in a lighter 1972 car.

I am still undecided on what I am going to do. The stock HD springs in my 400 car are pretty stiff compared to most cars I have driven in this vintage. My car just has terrible body roll. I have new Bilstiens and Addco sway bars, and I might just try them with the stock springs to see how it is. Otherwise, instead of paying a premium for custom springs, I might modify some Moogs.

A Moog 8336 is rated at 473 in/lbs stock, but its about 17" tall. If I cut about 1 coil it should increase the spring rate to about to the 550 range and sit at stock level. Of course it will be a little trial and error to get it sitting right. I am just doing some rough math for these results.

Edited by 72FordGTS - 20-April-2011 at 3:36PM
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