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INFO: Tubular Upper Control Arms

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Power Surge View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Power Surge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-December-2016 at 4:58PM
Does anyone happen to have pics of these control arms installed on the car, preferably a front frame shot with no sheet metal?
Sal Mennella
73 GTS 351 CJ
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-January-2017 at 3:10PM
i just bought mine Big smile can't wait to get 'em!!
JOHN
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M Casey Stock Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-May-2017 at 7:45AM
I guess this is still our only option? I'm not to worried about moving my ball joint back to adjust my caster. I'm not building a race car, I'm good with the handling of my car BUT  I do want to replace all the old bushings and joints and like the looks of the tubular arms. I know we are not talking apples to apples, but a buddy of mine  with a 65 chevy wagon, just purchased a complete upper and lower control arm kit with all new bushings and joints installed and even a new thru bar for under $300.00 shipping and all and every pivot point has grease fittings.  Is there nothing like this out there for our cars for the ones of us that are happy with the factory geometry.
1975 Gran Torino, Copperhead

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lynchster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-May-2017 at 11:45AM
Originally posted by M Casey Stock M Casey Stock wrote:

I guess this is still our only option? I'm not to worried about moving my ball joint back to adjust my caster. I'm not building a race car, I'm good with the handling of my car BUT  I do want to replace all the old bushings and joints and like the looks of the tubular arms. I know we are not talking apples to apples, but a buddy of mine  with a 65 chevy wagon, just purchased a complete upper and lower control arm kit with all new bushings and joints installed and even a new thru bar for under $300.00 shipping and all and every pivot point has grease fittings.  Is there nothing like this out there for our cars for the ones of us that are happy with the factory geometry.


Sorry but it would appear we all have a fascination with a non catalog vehicle.
Chuck
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M Casey Stock Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-May-2017 at 12:04PM
Originally posted by lynchster lynchster wrote:

Sorry but it would appear we all have a fascination with a non catalog vehicle.


LOL..so true..but it never hurts to ask just in case somebody knows of something thats listed under a different model but works great on our cars...This  group is full of great guys that are very adapt to scraping and digging to come up with something that works. We have learned to think outside of the box to get what we want, so I haven't given up yet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-May-2017 at 3:02PM
If you don't care about the built in caster, why not just have your arms blasted and powered coated when you have them out for new bushings?  When I did my suspension, this is what I did and it looks awesome when it's done.  These tubular arms weren't around when I did my suspension, but to be honest I am not sure if they are worth the cost for me.  I can get 5 degrees of caster with stock arms, I don't think I'd want more than that anyway. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BackInBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-May-2017 at 1:54AM
Its only worth changing the upper arms if you want to change the suspension geometry for more performance....which will shorten the tire life.   Like Vince stated...you can get more caster with the stock A-arms (some have gotten 4 to 5 degrees with stock setup).   I wanted to start with 4 degrees and may go more depending upon how I used it for autocross.

Stock setup is good (for street) with upgraded sway bars, poly bushings in control arms, and CVPI springs.  It will have a good ride and handle better.   (Stock ride height)   Word of caution...from my research I would not use poly bushings on the strut arm (the big rubber doughnuts).   There is a history of those poly bushings fatiguing the strut  arms resulting in breakage.  (Easy to find reference to people racing mustangs and over time the poly bushings breaking the strut arm)






Edited by BackInBlack - 06-May-2017 at 1:56AM
-John
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Power Surge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-May-2017 at 4:00AM
Caster changes should not affect tire life at all. Caster doesn't affect tire wear.

I have these arms on my Ranchero project, but for more clearance, and not because I wanted more caster.
Sal Mennella
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BackInBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-May-2017 at 6:43AM
In general, I would say if you change anything from the OEM settings it would be prudent to look at all the geometry to make sure something else isn't going out of whack.  Since there aren't any "packaged" kits where someone did the engineering for you; you'll have to do some homework to make sure you're changes don't screw things up.   4 degrees shouldn't be a problem, but it is near the extreme range of the OEM adjustment (i think its around 5-6 max).  

I was worried about the caster changes so I bought some software that helped me model the front geometry.   I didn't see any negative impacts with 4degrees caster increase.   I'm targeting 6...+/- some adjustment range. 

Sal,
How's that Coyote Swap going?   Do you have a project thread?   I thought about doing that but gave up due to the extend of the mods...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Power Surge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-May-2017 at 7:02AM
Originally posted by BackInBlack BackInBlack wrote:


Sal,
How's that Coyote Swap going?   Do you have a project thread?   I thought about doing that but gave up due to the extend of the mods...

Yeah man, it's in the Project Forum. Pics of everything I've done so far. Right now the motor and trans are mocked up in the car. Haven't worked on it in a few months now, as I have other projects going at the same time, but should be getting back to it soon. 
Sal Mennella
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M Casey Stock Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-June-2017 at 1:38AM
Originally posted by 72FordGTS 72FordGTS wrote:

If you don't care about the built in caster, why not just have your arms blasted and powered coated when you have them out for new bushings?  When I did my suspension, this is what I did and it looks awesome when it's done.  These tubular arms weren't around when I did my suspension, but to be honest I am not sure if they are worth the cost for me.  I can get 5 degrees of caster with stock arms, I don't think I'd want more than that anyway. 
 
Like I said I like the looks of them, but it's not like I built this car to jack up and put mirrors under it :)  The biggest problem I have is time, so a set up like the one I mentioned above would be great, but only if the cost is in line. I have all the tools and equipment to change out everything with new on the old arms, but still, to unbolt the dirty, worn factory setup and simply bolt on an all new setup would sure save time. The car drives great, doesn't follow every rut in the road and steering wants to return to center on it's own after a maneuver (everything you could ask for out of your caster setting on a cruiser) No big deal, if banging, pressing, scraping, cleaning and painting is my best option for the money, then banging, pressing, scraping, cleaning and painting I will do. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nuggets Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-June-2017 at 2:13AM
I've been considering these but the price puts me off.....


Very low on my to buy list versus things like brake upgrades, ARB upgrades, LSD for the rear etc

if they were down at $200 I'd happily buy a set now
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M Casey Stock Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-June-2017 at 7:23AM
Originally posted by Nuggets Nuggets wrote:

I've been considering these but the price puts me off.....


Very low on my to buy list versus things like brake upgrades, ARB upgrades, LSD for the rear etc

if they were down at $200 I'd happily buy a set now
 
Exactly my take on them. The materials are not expensive and with programing technology, laying out the geometry has already been established. It seems that it's just because we have a car that is not as common, we must be willing to pay a higher price for a similar product, mostly because of lack of options, where in reality some of us have what we have, because we have LESS money to spend. If a company can produce a pair fully loaded and ready to just bolt on to a 55,56,57 chevy at the price I mentioned above, that it would seem the same materials and tech could be applied using Torino specifications, to produce a product in the same price range. 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nuggets Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-June-2017 at 7:29AM
If they aren't patented/copyrighted then you could easily buy a set copy dimensions and make a few sets to sell on, essentially all you need is access to a tube bender and basic fabrication tools......

I've been very tempted to do the same with 429/460 mounts now I have basic dimensions from the terribly made Crites ones
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Power Surge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-June-2017 at 11:07AM
Originally posted by M Casey Stock M Casey Stock wrote:

Originally posted by Nuggets Nuggets wrote:

I've been considering these but the price puts me off.....


Very low on my to buy list versus things like brake upgrades, ARB upgrades, LSD for the rear etc

if they were down at $200 I'd happily buy a set now
 
Exactly my take on them. The materials are not expensive and with programing technology, laying out the geometry has already been established. It seems that it's just because we have a car that is not as common, we must be willing to pay a higher price for a similar product, mostly because of lack of options, where in reality some of us have what we have, because we have LESS money to spend. If a company can produce a pair fully loaded and ready to just bolt on to a 55,56,57 chevy at the price I mentioned above, that it would seem the same materials and tech could be applied using Torino specifications, to produce a product in the same price range. 
 

Come on man.... I think you know better than that. Those $200 Chevy control arms are mass produced by machines hundreds to thousands at a time. Welded by robots. If anything, the $200 ones are more of a ripoff because they probably cost $20 a pair to make....

I'm not defending the $600 price tag of these, because I'll be the first to tell you it sucked laying out that kind of money for them for the Ranchero. But Little Shop made 10 sets of them, all hand made, all TIG welded. That's a LOT of labor time you're paying someone to make them, for very little return on 10 sets. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Bird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-June-2017 at 11:36AM
As far as $600/Pr. goes, for a (Very) limited run, they had to design them, make jigs, bend/cut/weld materials they sourced.
You got off cheap, they gave you a hell of a deal.
I thought they also painted them...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nuggets Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-June-2017 at 12:24PM
Originally posted by Power Surge Power Surge wrote:

Originally posted by M Casey Stock M Casey Stock wrote:

Originally posted by Nuggets Nuggets wrote:

I've been considering these but the price puts me off.....


Very low on my to buy list versus things like brake upgrades, ARB upgrades, LSD for the rear etc

if they were down at $200 I'd happily buy a set now
 
Exactly my take on them. The materials are not expensive and with programing technology, laying out the geometry has already been established. It seems that it's just because we have a car that is not as common, we must be willing to pay a higher price for a similar product, mostly because of lack of options, where in reality some of us have what we have, because we have LESS money to spend. If a company can produce a pair fully loaded and ready to just bolt on to a 55,56,57 chevy at the price I mentioned above, that it would seem the same materials and tech could be applied using Torino specifications, to produce a product in the same price range. 
 



Come on man.... I think you know better than that. Those $200 Chevy control arms are mass produced by machines hundreds to thousands at a time. Welded by robots. If anything, the $200 ones are more of a ripoff because they probably cost $20 a pair to make....

I'm not defending the $600 price tag of these, because I'll be the first to tell you it sucked laying out that kind of money for them for the Ranchero. But Little Shop made 10 sets of them, all hand made, all TIG welded. That's a LOT of labor time you're paying someone to make them, for very little return on 10 sets. 



They're still $500 now though......

Yeah ok the Chevy ones are mass produced but considering your first batch run at $600 should have paid for the initial outlay of man hours developing and making the jigs they should be a lot cheaper than they are now! Especially as they'll have written the CNC program for the tube bender and laser cut part for the joint

There probably isn't more than $20 in the littleshop ones either, yeah they're hand tigged at say an hour per pair once set up so theres where your expense is but a good welder should be able to pop them out fairly rapidly especially on new clean material

Pretty sure they've sold a few more than 10 sets now as well! 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nuggets Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-June-2017 at 12:26PM
Originally posted by Big Bird Big Bird wrote:

As far as $600/Pr. goes, for a (Very) limited run, they had to design them, make jigs, bend/cut/weld materials they sourced.
You got off cheap, they gave you a hell of a deal.
I thought they also painted them...


For a limited run they would have budgeted a profit margin they were happy with though, now that they're making them as an off the shelf part they should have dropped slightly. 

And those tie rods are ridiculous at nearly $400!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-June-2017 at 12:38PM
why doesn't somebody see about another group buy, get the other forums involved?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nuggets Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-June-2017 at 12:48PM
To be honest, these are only really useful if you do track stuff or want a car set up for handling

For most people stock ones with new bushes should be fine

That being said I would still consider these if they were cheaper, but at the current price they are bottom of my list of things to do. 

The lack of available brake upgrades needs to be sorted first, I'm looking at making brackets up for AP solid callipers onto the stock upright, hopefully they can just be laser cut in pieces and welded together.....if not I may have to look at machining something on the mill, but that would be the single biggest improvement for these cars IMO 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Power Surge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-June-2017 at 12:49PM
Originally posted by Rockatansky Rockatansky wrote:

why doesn't somebody see about another group buy, get the other forums involved?

IMO, group buys are always a mess. I tried many times over the years to do them, with custom parts I manufactured. It's always the same thing.....  a hundred people say they would buy the item if it was made.... then 50 people say they'd commit to a pre-payment purchase.... then 5 people actually wind up forking over the money for the item. So the great deal group buy turns into a low production run of parts, at a much higher price from the low sales number. 

JUST like happened here. 
Sal Mennella
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mkshelton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-June-2017 at 1:05PM
Originally posted by Nuggets Nuggets wrote:

To be honest, these are only really useful if you do track stuff or want a car set up for handling

For most people stock ones with new bushes should be fine

That being said I would still consider these if they were cheaper, but at the current price they are bottom of my list of things to do. 

The lack of available brake upgrades needs to be sorted first, I'm looking at making brackets up for AP solid callipers onto the stock upright, hopefully they can just be laser cut in pieces and welded together.....if not I may have to look at machining something on the mill, but that would be the single biggest improvement for these cars IMO 

I agree. Better brakes are a bigger deal for overall sports car type driving. I believe the stock arm is sufficient even for that purpose.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BackInBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-June-2017 at 1:22PM
They build to order...small batches by hand. Go have some custom a arms made and see how much that costs. It may be a little high, but how many hours would you spend building them yourself? Not to mention how many prototypes and time testing it.

They ,like any company, have only so much labor force to apply. Setup and tear down of shop resources and machinery is lost dollars. Same story... profit margin per labor hour spent. Frankly they took a chance stocking material and fabricating this part. I'm just glad they took a chance and actually built a part for our forgotten muscle car.

Call these companies; request and complain about no support for these cars.   I do...the response I get is that no one is calling for parts for these cars.   No volume of requests=no parts. This I can tell you for certain...do nothing get nothing. At least there is now an option where there was none before.

If you want the added performance then it's worth it...if your doing a street car then you will be fine without them.   Try calling them...see if they can explain the price hike...they may be willing to work with you.

Andy may have a more recent experience than me...perhaps he can inject some useful feedback

I worked with eric with the strut arms group buy...he was pretty reasonable at least in times past.


Edited by BackInBlack - 05-June-2017 at 1:26PM
-John
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BackInBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-June-2017 at 1:36PM
Originally posted by Power Surge Power Surge wrote:

Originally posted by Rockatansky Rockatansky wrote:

why doesn't somebody see about another group buy, get the other forums involved?

IMO, group buys are always a mess. I tried many times over the years to do them, with custom parts I manufactured. It's always the same thing.....  a hundred people say they would buy the item if it was made.... then 50 people say they'd commit to a pre-payment purchase.... then 5 people actually wind up forking over the money for the item. So the great deal group buy turns into a low production run of parts, at a much higher price from the low sales number. 

JUST like happened here. 

Yup...I can attest to that.   Exact same thing happened with the strut arm group buy.  Thats why these companies dont want to bother building parts for these cars because in the end they can't sell them.

We picked a forgotten muscle car to build...so I'm thankful that I can even find a part like this.  


Edited by BackInBlack - 05-June-2017 at 1:38PM
-John
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-June-2017 at 1:44PM
I didn't end up buying the tubular arms as I had already done my suspension by that time.  I can see the point that the price is very high, especially for those of us that have to ship outside the USA and deal with an unfavorable exchange and shipping rates.  But I give the Little Shop a lot of credit for taking the time to make these arms.  How many other companies would take to time to work with a small bunch of enthusiast?  They certainly didn't get rich off this.
 
Try calling on of the big guys like Hotchkiss or PST or whatever and get them to make up a small batch of parts for our cars?  Not going to happen.  In fact, I did contact Hotchkiss years ago after I saw the Jay Leno video for his '66 Galaxie. These cars use the same arms as our Torinos. Hotchkiss built some custom arms for him and claimed they were going to produce them. When I contacted them, they said they were not going to produce them, not enough interest.  And this was after the R&D were all ready done.
I was involved with the group buy for the strut rod bearings and as other's have mentioned we dropped down to very low numbers once you had to put your money out.  Yeah, they cost me a TON once I factored the shipping and exchange, but they are a custom part that made a massive improvement (IMO these are a better upgrade than the arms).  Little shop was great to deal with and very helpful on the install as I was probably the first to install them on a car.  And in the end, I don't feel too bad forking out some serious dough for a quality custom part, to a business that supports a non-mainstream car.
 
FWIW, the last time I talk to Little shop, they indicated they would make up another batch of either parts, but they wanted a multiple orders to make it worth their time.  I am not sure if that's changed. 
 
I think a new group buy is a good idea.  If no one even tries then how do you know if it's not possible?  Don't give up before you even  try.


Edited by 72FordGTS - 05-June-2017 at 1:49PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Bird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-June-2017 at 11:45PM
I tried to get Ridetech to make some lowers/struts like they do for the G.M. fullsizes that use a strut rod,
They ever so politely told me "No Thanks" due to cost of development, production, etc., for something there was no demand for. I pointed out that the parts were applicable to Full-size as well as midsize Fords, but, no demand = no production.
"What we do in full frontal view, is more honest than your cleaned-up mind."
Randy
1979 T-Bird
2005 F-150 STX RCSB 4.6, 3.55 LSD
How the Heck does a REGULAR CAB SHORTBED weigh over 5200 pounds?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M Casey Stock Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-June-2017 at 2:17AM
Originally posted by Power Surge Power Surge wrote:

Come on man.... I think you know better than that. Those $200 Chevy control arms are mass produced by machines hundreds to thousands at a time. Welded by robots. If anything, the $200 ones are more of a ripoff because they probably cost $20 a pair to make....

I'm not defending the $600 price tag of these, because I'll be the first to tell you it sucked laying out that kind of money for them for the Ranchero. But Little Shop made 10 sets of them, all hand made, all TIG welded. That's a LOT of labor time you're paying someone to make them, for very little return on 10 sets. 
 
 
Being how I have seen the mass produced ones in person and they look great, I still stick to my opinion. The chevy ones are less than $300.00 delivered and that includes upper and lower BOTH sides with all new bushings (nice neoprene) with grease fittings , thru-rods and ball joints already installed. We are talking almost $600.00 plus shipping for one side stripped down. Like I said, I like the looks of the tubular, but really what I want is a complete bolt on deal that is cost shaving. I could care less about the caster change and would actually be fine with stamped upper and lowers, I don't show off my suspension anyway. The tubular design is actually less expensive to produce than the stamped on a small scale (you ever tried to stamp plate steel by hand?) I'm not asking Little Shop to lower their price, they are not offering what I want anyway, I'm just wishing one of the mass producers would offer some up for our cars. I think a ton of others here are wishing the same thing.
 
My point is that with all the technology at hand it wouldn't be hard for the mass producers to make a run of these things to fit our cars on a scale that would not leave a ton of stock on the shelves. I would be willing to pay twice what the Chevy ones cost for a complete set (both sides) loaded like the Chevy ones. I realize that lower numbers means higher cost. I'm okay with that, just not to the extreme that is currently out there.


Edited by M Casey Stock - 06-June-2017 at 2:26AM
1975 Gran Torino, Copperhead

http://forum.grantorinosport.org/75-gran-torino-soft-restoration-copper-head_topic15137_post169060.html?KW=#169060
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nuggets Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-June-2017 at 2:27AM
Lightweight cast ally ones would be nice too! 

I don't want or need the castor adjustment but they do offer a little more clearance for exhaust manifolds which is nice 
Barnaby

429 powered 73 Stripper.....no comfort, just noise!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Bird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-June-2017 at 9:38AM
There is a good potential market as these also would fit 65-78 fullsize, 67-76 thunderbird, Lincoln Mark III, IV, V,. Something that would get the Lowrider crowd excited as well would probably get us in production.
Sadly, no...


Edited by Big Bird - 06-June-2017 at 9:38AM
"What we do in full frontal view, is more honest than your cleaned-up mind."
Randy
1979 T-Bird
2005 F-150 STX RCSB 4.6, 3.55 LSD
How the Heck does a REGULAR CAB SHORTBED weigh over 5200 pounds?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mtburger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-June-2017 at 1:10PM
Hello All.

I have been following along here for a bit, so I figured I would add.

I wanted the strut rod bearings, but did not so much want the control arms.

I called Little Shop and inquired on the bearings.

They were currently sold out when I called, so I asked them to add my name to the list for the next run.

A short time later I got the call and was asked if I was still interested, which I was.

I am 99% sure I did not pay a deposit, I just said yes, and was billed right then when I was called back as the run was complete.

When Allen posted a set of the control arms in the for sale forum I jumped and got them, figured I would use them eventually.

Like most of you all, I have several projects, my 1976 Monarch is what I have been working on in between, and among others.

While rebuilding the front end on the Monarch (very similar drag strut design to the Frame car intermediates) I decided to do the Shelby drop, add the Global West upper arms, and cut back the shock towers for extra engine compartment space.

So this is where the conversation ties into this thread.

The Global West arms have a long list of compatible Ford platforms that they fit (Mustang, Cougar, Falcon, Torino, Montego, Ranchero, Maverick, Comet, Granada and so on from 1966 through 1978), they have been sold for decades now, and they cost $550.00 for the pair plus shipping.

This has been said MANY times, if you want nice stuff for your Ford or Mercury, you can buy it or build it, but it will almost never be as cheap as Camaro or Chevelle parts, and certainly no where near as easy to get.

For my part, I am very happy that I get a few nice items I can actually just throw green paper at, instead of 200 hours of nut busting, head smashing, and knuckle gashing for something almost close to what I want.

Thanks, Mike H.
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