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Intake Gasket ?? and Carb Upgrade

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72FordGTS View Drop Down
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    Posted: 20-March-2015 at 8:37AM
I am planning on swapping the stock 2V intake and carb before I take my Torino out this spring.  My car has a 400, so I was looking at installing the Edelbrock 2171 intake and a 4bbl carb.  I noticed Edelbrock recommends Fel-Pro MS96020 intake gasket when using their intake.  This gasket includes the metal valley pan and end seals.  However, this intake gasket is listed for 1975-82 Ford 400's.  The one listed for the 1971-74 400's is MS96013.  This includes the metal valley pan, paper gaskets and the ends seals.  It looks like the same kits Fel-Pro lists for the 351C's (just wider to fit the 400).
 
Why is there two different intake gaskets?  And which should I use?
 
 
MS96013 (1971-1974)
 
 
MS96020 (1975-1982) Edelbrock Recommended
 
I am also leaning toward the Holley Street Avenger 670 carb for my engine.  I figure this should give me more than enough CFM for later on when I install headers, a new cam and bump the compression.  It comes in Aluminum and Zinc.  Any reason one is better than the other?  I was leaning towards the Aluminum model for lighter weight.  Anyone have any experience with the SA carbs?
 
 
Vince

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IndyLTD I I Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-March-2015 at 10:06AM
Don't really have an answer on the intake gasket, just a comment. The last 2171 I bought was in 1988, and I swore the instructions then said NOT to use the factory valley pan gasket. I remember cutting the pan off the factory gasket and running some performance intake gaskets I got from Super Shops. It sealed good, but I was tempted to run the factory anyways, and it looks like I could have based on their current recommendations. Why the 75-82 gasket perhaps it matches the intake better, hard to say based on pictures, definitely some differences around thermactor passage perhaps that's why.

On the carbs, isn't the zinc just a dress up finish? Aluminum is raw, and zinc is shiny I think.


Edited by IndyLTD I I - 20-March-2015 at 10:11AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-March-2015 at 11:44AM

I think that Edelbrock changed their recommendation over the years for some reason.  I have heard they used to recommend not to use the valley pan.  I read the current website and instructions and it now says to use the later version but not to use the end seals, just a bead of RTV.

The weird thing is for the 351C they still recommend using the gaskets, not the valley pan setup.  I would consider going this route on my 400 too, but I don't want to block off my exhaust cross over since the spring and fall weather here can be pretty cool.  And I have also heard that the valley pan prevents coking of oil on the hot exhaust crossover passage on the bottom on the intake.
 
I am not sure which route I am going to go, so I'd appreciate other feedback from others.  I just don't want any vacuum leaks.
 
As for the carbs, Holley traditionally used zinc, but now offers Aluminum.  I have heard that some late model Holley's made from zinc have had issues with their finish flaking and plugging up the passages, which is another reason why I am leaning to Aluminum.
Vince

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-March-2015 at 11:44AM
lee: i didn't know you had super shops back in the midwest (i thought they were just on the west coast) man i sure miss the super shops Cry best place around to buy BFG T/A's
JOHN
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-March-2015 at 12:54PM
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/fel-ms96013/overview/
 
save the pics to your computer, open them in an editor, however you want to do it...
 
look at the tabs sticking out. unless I'm Wacko seeing things the end ports are open on different ends
 
IIRC at some point those end ports were used for EGR or A.I.R., but not straight across the board. trucks were catalyst exempt & may not have used the emission control systems that the passenger vehicles did
 
the large threaded port near the front of the intake is the access point for the 'forward open holes' gasket
 
------------------
 
if your heads have no open AIR / EGR passages at the ends you can use the race type gaskets but there'll be no protection for the exhaust cross-over & the oil may coke on the bottom of the manifold
 
or you can use your old turkey pan & make a heat shield. cut the entire port sealing areas from the center of the pan but leave the china wall edges & set the heat shield into the RTV used to seal the ends. yeah I went a little nutz with the uni-bit but you get the idea
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IndyLTD I I Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-March-2015 at 2:00PM
Originally posted by Rockatansky Rockatansky wrote:

or you can use your old turkey pan & make a heat shield. cut the entire port sealing areas from the center of the pan but leave the china wall edges & set the heat shield into the RTV used to seal the ends. yeah I went a little nutz with the uni-bit but you get the idea.

Yep, that's what I did in '88. LOL. I would go with what Edelbrock currently recommends.I have used the stock steel valley pan gaskets a lot and never had a leak.

John: Yeah, Super Shops was the sh*t! Best thing about them was layaway and special order. Building a 79 Ranchero 400M in '88, everything was special order, and expensive enough to require layaway.
 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-March-2015 at 2:36AM

Okay, I think I have kind of figured things out.  I am not really familiar with the 1975+ 351M and 400's.  I was reading Bubba's M-block page and it looks like the front passage was used for the Thermactor system.  I guess the 1975+ heads were drilled for the Thermactor air to pass right into the exhaust ports.  Apparently the older engines, 1971-74, used a rear passageway in the intake if the car had Thermactor. 

Now the gaskets that were posted are reversed in orientation.  The tab is at the back of the engine.  The early 400's with Thermactor used that rear intake opening.  If you order the intake gasket for engines without Thermactor, you get the paper gaskets which appears to block that passageway.  If you order with Thermactor, you get just the valley pan and the rear passageway is open.  The later intake gasket has metal over that rear hole since the 1975+ engines don't used the rear passageway ever.  However, the newer gasket has the opening for the front passage way open for the new Thermactor system.
 
The weird thing is the 351C engine gaskets have the rear passage way open, and the paper gaskets.  But they didn't appear to ever use the Thermactor with the 351C?  Why wouldn't they just make the metal valley pan without the rear opening?  Maybe I am wrong on that one...
 
In any case, my 1972 engine has no Thermactor, no EGR, basically nothing for emissions except the Evap system and the temperature controlled spark advance (disabled).  It's weird that Edelbrock put the Thermactor passageway in the intake when this is the "non-emissions" compliant version of the intake.  I could see them including it on the 400 EGR, but why the Performer?  So I will probably just stick with the older  1971-1974 gasket or possibly do the setup that Rockatansky posted. 
 
Rockatansky,
 
you don't happen to know the part number for the "race" gaskets for a 400 do you?  Do they have provisions for the exhaust cross over?  And when you did the end seals on your setup, I assume you just used RTV?  Did you put it under and above the valley pan ?  Do you use anything around the intake ports as a sealer, like Permatex High Tack Gasket Sealant?  As always thanks for the help, your knowledge on 335 series engines is an asset to this site!


Edited by 72FordGTS - 21-March-2015 at 3:26AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-March-2015 at 6:24AM
yup I set the heat shield into a 'sandwich' of RTV, it just kinda floated below the intake, the ends I made sure were trimmed inboard enough to have good silicone in the corners
 
kinda depends how I feel at the time, what my expectations are for the install. High Tack is pretty darn permanent, definately a good choice for a customer car or an engine you don't plan on opening any time soon. lately I've been on an Anti-Seize kick, I like it because it doesn't let the gasket stick in spots & tear during torqueing like those silicone beaded $ gaskets do, allows for mistakes & re-do's if the intake has to come off again soon but it seals well too. last intake I did the Anti-Seize ended up being on a lot longer than I figured it would & had no issues for the duration of several years, & the gaskets still peeled off nice good enough to re-use. Hylomar is an option, non-hardening, removable within reasonable timeframe. I've also used Spray Copper on the paper gaskets, Gaska-cinch(rubber cement) on a 2nd time turkey pan...
 
one thing I don't like about the turkey pan is that there's no seal (unless you know & do it on purpose) on the top side of the pan & the intake ends. I found condensation & rust pinholes in the last turkey pan I did after a fairly short period, that's the tray that ended up being the heat shield & why it's painted
 
I just wiped the link I had posted for the FelPro 1240 intake set because it's the silicone bead style,
they stick, pull & distort during torqueing to the extent that the they destroy themselves & leak,
whatever the trick is to getting them snugged down clean I don't know it & for that reason I avoid the silicone bead from any gasket company. I've heard to use WD40 on the metal but that doesn't sound right to me? I know WD40 doesn't last like gear lube but still
 
this is one case where I go to the bargain aisle for the Mr Garbage paper gaskets, I'm all over MRG-222 or equivalent on this one,
just simple basic composition paper material
 
the pic is showing the crossover block-offs but you can make them out of pop can metal or whatever, old turkey pan metal?. I'd use just a dab of whatever kind of gasket goo you're feeling at the time to hold them in place on the head so the exhaust only sees the metal block-off to protect the gasket
 
I do tend to read 351C.net quite a bit Wink


Edited by Rockatansky - 21-March-2015 at 6:26AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-March-2015 at 2:43PM
Originally posted by Rockatansky Rockatansky wrote:

 
one thing I don't like about the turkey pan is that there's no seal (unless you know & do it on purpose) on the top side of the pan & the intake ends.
 
Thanks again for tons of great info!!  What do you mean by the comment above?  Are you saying these gaskets don't seal at the top of the intake runners?  I am not sure what you mean.
 
I came across an OEM intake gasket on eBay for the 400 and 351C.  Seems Fel-pro does it right, Ford originally had thin paper gaskets that went between the valley pan and the head.
 
I am not planning on keeping this new intake sealed for a long period.  I am hoping maybe a year before I can tear into the engine and do the whole thing.  I just figured buying the carb and intake will help offset the costs later.
 
400:
 
 
351C: 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-March-2015 at 12:09AM
Originally posted by 72FordGTS 72FordGTS wrote:

one thing I don't like about the turkey pan is that there's no seal (unless you know & do it on purpose) on the top side of the pan & the intake ends.
 
the end seals/ RTV are Under the turkey pan, under normal circumstances there's no sealing goin on Above the turkey pan to the intake manifold unless a guy was to use some sort of sealant on the Top side of the turkey pan. lots of guys do use sealant on both sides but it's not 'normal' procedure
 
if / when I use a turkey pan again i'll definitely use something to prevent condensation / moisture / water entry between the intake & gasket tray, I'm liking Hylomar because it's actually re-usable if it doesn't become contaminated but it'll clean up real easy too
 
if the turkey pan is secured to the engine by RTV at the ends, the Hylomar will release the intake & the manifold can be swapped with another or serviced for whatever reason Wink
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-March-2015 at 11:54AM
Thanks again for the info Rockatansky!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-April-2015 at 12:54PM
Just as an update, I got the intake and carb swap done this weekend (Eddy 2171 Intake, Holley 670 SA 0-83670).  The car runs awesome now, the throttle response is FAR better than the old 2100.  Overall the car feels much stronger through the power band, and has more top end punch.  The 670 seems to be a good size for the 400, and so far it seems to be jetted pretty well out of the box.  The only major adjustment was the choke was setup stay on way too long.
The intake was a bolt on swap.  The throttle bracket bolted in the correct spot, although required a slight tweak (bend) to get the proper throttle cable movement.  The kickdown also bolted up with just a minor tweak (bend).  I had to fab up a new fuel line for the carb, but I could have also cut the OEM line (which I didn't want to do).
 
I ended up using MS96017 intake valley pan gasket.  I ordered the MS96013 gasket, but the parts store screwed up and ordered the Thermactor version.  Anyway, it's basically identical to the MS96020 gasket, except both front and rear Thermactor ports are open.  But in the end, this gasket probably worked out better since the Eddy is cast with the front Thermactor passages, it kept the entire intake face under the gasket (the earlier one wouldn't).  I would suggest to anyone doing this swap to use either MS96020 or MS96017 instead of the earlier version regardless of what year 400 you have.  Even if you have the early heads with no Thermactor ports (like my engine) these later gaskets work fine.
 
FWIW, what I believe is the factory original valley pan was rusted pretty badly on the top side.  Clean as a whistle on the bottom side though. The intake valley was spotless too. 


Edited by 72FordGTS - 02-January-2017 at 6:03AM
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