Just a small fire |
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mfgriffin
Member Joined: 18-February-2021 Location: Indianapolis Status: Offline Points: 50 |
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Posted: 27-February-2021 at 9:05AM |
TLDR: My wiring caught fire and I'd like to get advice on what the extent of the damage might be. Pictures and cause of fire at bottom.
My apologies if this isn't the right forum to post this, but it seemed like a generic question and not specific to Torinos or really any make/model so I'm posting in General. So about a week ago I bought a second 1972 Ford Torino, first one I've owned that actually runs. I've started it a few times, been getting a list together of random little misc things I've found wrong so far, but I've kept it in the garage and haven't driven it since I bought it because of the weather and salt on the road. My son has been begging to go for a ride in it so I figure what the hey, I want to give it a good wash anyway and it's 60 out so I strap him into the back seat and I drive it up to the gas station about .5 miles from my house, fill up the tank. The plan was to drive it back to the house to wash it. All in all, about 1 mile of driving because I haven't even gotten the thing plated yet and the roads are still a little messy, but this has been my dream car since I was a kid and I just had to take it out! I get to the gas station, fill it up with gas, pull out of the gas station and the car just dies and smoke starts pouring out of the hood! I pull my son out of the back, pop the hood and see a few small flames that I was able to extinguish with the cabbie hat i was wearing(damn, I liked that hat too). I notice my wiring is all fried. Now I am completely gutted. I have just stared at this car every day since it arrived at my house and I've now set it on fire within 10 minutes of actually enjoying it. I called a tow truck driver, paid $60 to have it towed back to my house, and now it's sitting in the driveway while I feel defeated. After silently weeping for some time I went out to inspect the car and I found the root cause. Before I get too far into it, I would like say that I want to be a car guy, but it's always been pretty overwhelming and other than oil changes or replacing parts that are clearly visable I have no idea what I'm doing. But I really want to learn, so just know that I'm eager, but I sometimes need to be talked to like a 5 year old :) Root cause and damage: When I popped the hood there was a wire attached to the firewall that looks like it might go down to the engine block(I told you I'm new to this) looks to be about 6 gauge and it was GLOWING red and had melted into two pieces. I then noticed that the wires to the alternator and regulator(I think?) are all crispy and burned up. I keep looking around and found the culprit. The guy I bought it from didn't have the battery secured and I just didn't think anything of it. I now know that that was bad and I'm going to have to pay stupid tax for it. I know the guy drove it around regularly, even taking it across town to a shop of my choosing for an inspection before I bought it and had it shipped up here, but apparently I take the turns a little harder than he did because the positive terminal of the battery basically welded itself to the inside part of the fender. I also feel like there may have been smoke coming out from underneath the car, like by the back tires. Can someone be so kind as to tell me what I should be looking at/for, what I potentially messed up and to what extent? I'm happy to take more pictures if necessary. Here is the wire that was glowing. And here are the wires going to the alternator/regulator that are all fried. So I think I've gotten my initial diagnosis correct, but was hoping to get some input as to what all could have potentially been damaged and what I should be looking at. Again sorry that I'm not super technical, but appreciate the patience. Thanks in advance!
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72FordGTS
Admin Group GTS.org Admin Joined: 06-September-2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Status: Offline Points: 5846 |
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From your description, it sounds like the positive terminal shorted out against the body (ground). That wire on the fire wall is the engine to body ground wire. From the looks of it, it was due to be replaced anyway. Look at the terminal that connects to the firewall. It needs to be cleaned up, as it is covered in black paint or undercoat. Make sure when you make a new ground wire (you will have to make one, they don't make repros), use at least the same wire gauge or larger and make sure the terminal have nice clean metal. Same goes for the engine block and firewall.
The alternator harness also seems to have been taken out. If the plugs on each end are still in good shape, you can reuse them and just replace the wiring. But if the plugs melted too, you will need to replace them as well. There used to be a Mustang place the restores these alternators and sold new harnesses, but I can't find it right now. We have wiring diagrams on the forum here: |
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Vince
1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car GTS.org Admin |
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72 RS 351
Senior Member Joined: 04-September-2014 Location: Knoxville TN Status: Offline Points: 2767 |
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Sorry to hear about that first drive mishap. I'm glad there's no bigger damage than what it seems there. Plan to replace all of the main battery power cables and wires. That kind of current ruins the wires it runs through. I'd replace the voltage regulator and yes have the alternator rebuilt. You'd like to know that the main charging circuit is in good condition the next time you start the engine.
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Don
73 Ranchero "Sport 72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000+ rpm 351-4V &4R70W 73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V &4R70W for sale later. 92 Lincoln Mark VII SE GTC, OBDII 347/4R70W |
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Rivercrest
Member Joined: 07-December-2019 Location: Manitoba Canada Status: Offline Points: 175 |
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If your unsure of how to redo the wiring you might want to find a similar car at the wrecker, salvage the wiring harnesses as needed. This way you'll be one step ahead to putting back the items that right now are all melted together along with many of the plugs/components you'll need. Wiring diagrams help of course but won't show you what the wires look like or where they physically go when new... Good luck.
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Bob
1974 Cougar XR7 with a 72 351C |
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handsofstone
Senior Member Joined: 13-April-2018 Location: Northeast Status: Offline Points: 3946 |
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Take all the wiring under the hood out of the one you are selling. Get the car insured before putting your family at risk and losing all that money because you "just had to". Some lessons are not cheap but you got off lightly.
When you get the wiring replaced and a new battery plus the hold down, plan on leaving the negative cable clamp loose so you can disconnect it after every ride. Keep a fire extinguisher behind the seat. A good one with no plastuc parts. Also, there is a small extinguisher that is a little fatter than a road flare that is very good. I forget the name. Fire is not your friend or your house's. Take note if where all the wiring is routed and where is is connected. It should be the same as your Dad's. Don't atart cutting anything off at connectors, they are not cheap when you can find them. The voltage regulator and alternator should be replaced too. Again, you have the parts so take out what you can. Get your insured asap. Hagerty should do $20k no problem for less than $200/year fepending on how much you will drive it.
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mfgriffin
Member Joined: 18-February-2021 Location: Indianapolis Status: Offline Points: 50 |
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Thanks for all the suggestions. Unfortunately I won't be able to dig in until Monday, but hopefully should have most of the day to tinker with it. The one upshot I see is that I'm extremely comfortable with dealing with wire. Soldering, splicing, crimping...
A few follow-ups: I can probably compare/pull parts of the wiring harness off my other GTS so I may take advantage of that, but is there a thread or links with the various connectors? Should I bump up the gauge on the block ground cable and battery cables? Seems to me that there's only upside to this so while I'm in there, why not? If the alternator and regulator should be replaced/rebuilt, should I just go ahead and get a G3 on order and plan to pop that in? Again thinking if I'm spending the money anyway... Thanks again all! Edited to add:. The car is most definitely insured. I just haven't gone to the bmv to plate it yet.
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handsofstone
Senior Member Joined: 13-April-2018 Location: Northeast Status: Offline Points: 3946 |
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My next battery will have the positive post inboard. Not sure why Ford set them up like that. Probably to save $.78 per unit sold.
The smoke you saw in the back was probably just from the fan blowing it back as well as air moving as you rolled to a stop.
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mfgriffin
Member Joined: 18-February-2021 Location: Indianapolis Status: Offline Points: 50 |
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Yeah, I immediately realized that a fire extinguisher was not an option and couldn't wait. Just didn't anticipate catastrophe in less than 1 mile and it really was a big eye opener. After getting under the car I saw nothing towards the rear, it was just wild how concentrated it was right next to the back wheel.
Also, edited most recent post, but adding again it's already insured and was before it got put on the truck to come up here. I just haven't made it to the bmv to plate it yet. I still have a couple weeks and will probably take care of that this week 😀
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handsofstone
Senior Member Joined: 13-April-2018 Location: Northeast Status: Offline Points: 3946 |
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You realize the harnesses you would spend hundreds to buy are sitting in your garage? Your Dad's car is a gift horse. Strip itif you can. Then sell the car for a nice sum. You are going to be surprised at how much it will sell for. And your Dad will be with you in spirit every time you drive.
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mfgriffin
Member Joined: 18-February-2021 Location: Indianapolis Status: Offline Points: 50 |
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For sure! My mind went there first, but there areas that I remembered being in rough shape so I was just curious how available this stuff is. Also, probably showing my inexperience or just bring dumb here, but I figured things like the battery cables, grounding wires, and alternator would be better to go new vs salvage. I'm obviously basing this on nothing and maybe that's flawed thinking since we're about a classic car and not a new honda civic, lol.
Also, just ordered a fire extinguisher, thankful this lesson wasn't as expensive as it could have been. Edited by mfgriffin - 27-February-2021 at 4:06PM |
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handsofstone
Senior Member Joined: 13-April-2018 Location: Northeast Status: Offline Points: 3946 |
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Cables and battery get new. The harnesses are under the brake booster. Loosen the center bolt until it stops, wiggle the con ector a bit, loosen the bolt some more etc. Then start following the wiring and disconnect starting at the furthest point. Take notes and pics of how they are run. You will be a car guy before eyou know it. Otherwise, it can get expensive fast.
Battery hold down is gonna be a generic one but they work well. And make sure the hold down is tied to the radiator support. I had a picture but must have deleted it. I made one. Pretty simple and makes a difference in how solid things are held together. Somewhere in my project thread there us a picture. I will look.
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handsofstone
Senior Member Joined: 13-April-2018 Location: Northeast Status: Offline Points: 3946 |
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I made this out of a nail guard plate. Simple and anchors the battery to the frame.
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californiajohnny
Moderator Group Joined: 05-October-2013 Location: winlock, wa Status: Offline Points: 14609 |
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yeah like the other john said... the center bolt and connector by the booster... there are 2 one is the engine harness the other is the light harness IIRC. follow the burnt wires to the connector, you may only need to pull one of them? not hard to do at all
as for the ground... my battery is in the trunk, so its grounded to the frame by the rear end... i used all 2 gauge welding wire with soldered on copper lugs... battery to frame, frame to body, frame to block... |
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JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE 74 VETTE CUSTOM 90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED 77 CELICA CUSTOM 75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED 79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED 75 VEGA V6 5 SPD 70 CHEV C10 P/U 68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION |
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72FordGTS
Admin Group GTS.org Admin Joined: 06-September-2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Status: Offline Points: 5846 |
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I agree, replacing and upgrading your battery cables is a good idea. If you plan on using the harnesses from your other Torino, keep in mind that they might not be the same. There were different style alternators that used different harnesses (side plug, vs rear terminal). Also, if one car has gauges and one does not, there are other differences in the harnesses. On top of that, the wiring might be old and brittle, so make sure it is usable.
If it was just the voltage regulator harness/alternator harness that burned up, it's not to hard to remake those ones with new wiring. However, if you are thinking of doing a 3G setup, now is the time. I kept mine 1G because I wanted it to look mostly stock under hood, but the 1G setup is a PITA. Here is a good thread on the 3G upgrade: |
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Vince
1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car GTS.org Admin |
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72 RS 351
Senior Member Joined: 04-September-2014 Location: Knoxville TN Status: Offline Points: 2767 |
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The 3G alternator is a great modern unit, the 1G is very rare now, and low amperage. I needed the 3G in my 91 Lincoln 15 years ago, and it helped a bunch. The stock unit will be fine for a bone stock car, so it's not required to upgrade.
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Don
73 Ranchero "Sport 72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000+ rpm 351-4V &4R70W 73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V &4R70W for sale later. 92 Lincoln Mark VII SE GTC, OBDII 347/4R70W |
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mfgriffin
Member Joined: 18-February-2021 Location: Indianapolis Status: Offline Points: 50 |
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Opened up the cars and started trying to label everything today. A closer inspection leads me to believe that the older car's wiring is in worse shape than the blue one. What I thought was burned wiring higher up in the harness appears to just be a little bit of burning on the outer wrapping just above the ground wire that melted. The wiring between the regulator and the alternator is complete toast however.
Whereas the wiring on the old one is also toast in that particular spot, but it's also fried, crunchy, and the sheathing has burned off on the upper portion near the firewall in a few spots. Below is a picture of it's alternator harness. I'm guessing best course of action would be to replace the alternator portion and the harness by building it new and cross my fingers on the rest of the harness, knowing that further investigation may be needed? Should I just buy same gauge wire and splice the connectors on them? Where do you get wire in all of the crazy colors or do people usually abandon the color coding altogether? Also, If I replaced this harness and my battery and voltage regulator is there any harm from just trying to fire it up? I'd really like to get it into my garage and can complete anything else needed from there. The tow truck driver couldn't drop it there and my driveway has a huge slope. I'm good with doing the alternator, sounds like I should probably just stick with the 1G since I don't intend on doing anything crazy to the car, but upgrade the battery cables. So I guess I'm wondering if with this information I'm wondering if this is a good idea or I need to look more into replacing the rest of the harness. I don't want to dismiss anyone's previous recommendations so feel free to tell me to knock it off if the answer doesn't change. Thanks again for the help!
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handsofstone
Senior Member Joined: 13-April-2018 Location: Northeast Status: Offline Points: 3946 |
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Whichever way you decide to go, keep the ground clamp on the battery loose so it can be disconnectet in a pinch. Maybe have the Mrs. start it and turn it off if need be. Multi-meter is your friend. I would look for closed circuit before putting the negative back on the battery. If you have an aftermarket stereo, remove the face so it draws no power. Maybe I am beating around the bush a bit but eliminating source of power draw will help with troubleshooting.
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handsofstone
Senior Member Joined: 13-April-2018 Location: Northeast Status: Offline Points: 3946 |
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Also, some white electrical tape that is easy to label won't tear or fall off when you are noving things around which will be a good thing in the long run. My car was crashed when I bought it and the wiring for the lights was a mess. Luckily it came with all the replacement oarts and the harness I needed was still on the extra radiator support. Swapped it out in a couple if hours after going through the harness and wrapping it again after inspection. Glad I did it that way.
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Rockatansky
Senior Member Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6072 |
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maybe it is time to go 3G? i think i'm ready too pretty sure this is the direct fit replacement DB also has a 90a 1G unit if you need it and really want to keep the external regulator
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72 GT Ute
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72 RS 351
Senior Member Joined: 04-September-2014 Location: Knoxville TN Status: Offline Points: 2767 |
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I suggest avoiding DB electrical if you can. I bought a 4G 170amp model from them many years ago, for a future stereo upgrade. I never needed the extra power, but the unit died after about 50k miles. I had a local shop open it up to rebuild it, thinking it was more valuable than a stock unit. The local shop discovered it had most stock parts and diode in it, and the armature was trashed(the main hard part of the 4G). So the cost to repair was the same as any unit, and that main part was over $100. It was too late to complain then, but I won't buy anything from them again. I got one from a JY and had it rebuilt for about $50, so $60 total for a stock 140 amp 4G. The 3G has many aftermarket parts to replace or upgrade, that model is very friendly for lots of applications. The guts basically all interchange, but the housing varies a lot for many different engines. That one is also feasible to buy used, and have it rebuilt. That will be long lived and reliable, the one in my 91 Lincoln has been great for over 12 years.
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Don
73 Ranchero "Sport 72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000+ rpm 351-4V &4R70W 73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V &4R70W for sale later. 92 Lincoln Mark VII SE GTC, OBDII 347/4R70W |
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Rockatansky
Senior Member Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6072 |
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Yes DB is an economy brand with an appropriate price point 1997 Cougar 3.8 will get you the housing
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72 GT Ute
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72FordGTS
Admin Group GTS.org Admin Joined: 06-September-2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Status: Offline Points: 5846 |
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You should be fine by just replacing the burnt wires and rebuilding the harness, along with the burned ground wire on the back of the engine. Make sure you use the same wire gauge or larger. I try to use the same colours as the factory, to make things simpler. You can get all different coloured wiring from an auto parts store or something similar. Thoroughly check over the wiring and if you are satisfied that all the damage has been replaced, you should be okay to do a test run. If the alternator is toast, it won't be charging. We can help you in diagnosing that should it crop up. As for the 3G upgrade, it's worthwhile to consider, even if you don't have the electrical load. It will just make the electrical system more reliable. My car has probably gone through 6 voltage regulators over the years with a 1G system, mind you the original alternator did last something like 43 years. Like I said, the only reason I stick with the 1G system is too keep my car looking more original under the hood. |
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Vince
1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car GTS.org Admin |
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Rockatansky
Senior Member Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6072 |
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i figured at this point the 3G upgrade will eliminate the regulator wiring that needs to be replaced anyway, as well as providing a better electrical foundation going forward
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72 GT Ute
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handsofstone
Senior Member Joined: 13-April-2018 Location: Northeast Status: Offline Points: 3946 |
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Rock,
By eliminating the VR, what happens to the existing wires? Do you need to get the harness from a boneyard? Does the connector get abandoned? I tried reading your linked thread but my phone makes it a pain.
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Rockatansky
Senior Member Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6072 |
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most / all of the reg harness goes in the bin, i'd use a new wire for what is still needed you'll probably need more than a <2" screen to see any diagram here's another i have saved |
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72 GT Ute
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72 RS 351
Senior Member Joined: 04-September-2014 Location: Knoxville TN Status: Offline Points: 2767 |
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Ditto. The old wiring can be left in place, if it is ever needed to swap back. The integral regulator alternator has simpler wiring, it's easy to make the couple of changes. I did that with my 91 Lincoln, I left the regulator in place, unplugged. If I had to put an old 1G back in its place, I could, the bracket is unaltered in my application.
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Don
73 Ranchero "Sport 72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000+ rpm 351-4V &4R70W 73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V &4R70W for sale later. 92 Lincoln Mark VII SE GTC, OBDII 347/4R70W |
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handsofstone
Senior Member Joined: 13-April-2018 Location: Northeast Status: Offline Points: 3946 |
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I am saving that screenshot. Thank you for sharing.
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mfgriffin
Member Joined: 18-February-2021 Location: Indianapolis Status: Offline Points: 50 |
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Lots of great info, thanks guys! Just a quick update, I ran a new ground wire in the alternator harness. I added a new terminal and bolted it to the top of the one that was in the harness since I couldn't really attach to that. I then replaced the engine block ground cable that melted. I couldn't find larger than 8g which the original one was, but I also couldn't find a flexible one so I'll be ordering and replacing it again in a week or two when I replace my battery cables. Bought a voltage regulator, but didn't install it. Going to keep it on hand for when it does fail. Replaced battery for peace of mind and bought a new battery tray and hold down that I will be installing this weekend.
All is now well! Several important lessons learned and I'm thankful it turned out ok in the end. I had a good buddy that actually knows what he's doing come over and check all my work before firing it up. It is interesting to me that the higher gauge engine ground ended up being a really good thing in this case because it acted just like a fuse and burned out before anything else was destroyed. The car won't be leaving the garage until the next set of upgrades is installed and the fire extinguisher is here.
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handsofstone
Senior Member Joined: 13-April-2018 Location: Northeast Status: Offline Points: 3946 |
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Glad to read the uodate. Lesson learned the inexpensive way. Are you insured with Hagerty?
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mfgriffin
Member Joined: 18-February-2021 Location: Indianapolis Status: Offline Points: 50 |
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Unsure what hagerty insurance is. I've added the car to my American Family policy.
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