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MSD 6AL Points Trigger/OEM Tach/Duraspark/HEI

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Bird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-March-2017 at 10:00AM
Some where I've got the same kind of drawing for using a Chrysler module...
Seems like the name "Duraspark" was a bit optimistic.
The above post should be read in a "Grumpy Old Man" voice.
Almost forgot: "Get off my lawn!!!"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-March-2017 at 1:32PM
Originally posted by aquartlow aquartlow wrote:

The distributor is a factory speced but remanned Duraspark unit for a '77 460(I did change the internal timing limit and advance springs for my application). I used the magnetic pickup to send signals to the 5 pin HEI mounted to an all aluminum heatsink I had that previously housed a battery isolator. The coil is a Ford TFI coil from something like a '96 Mustang 5.0(Standard FD-478). The TFI coil's low ohm resistance works excellent with the GM HEI module, too much resistance could cut down on the spark output. Also the TFI really needs full 12V at all times, unlike a regular "blue grommet" Duraspark system that uses full 12V at start-up/cranking but then relies on the resistance wire to drop ignition coil voltage to 7.5-8V give or take, the "red grommet" California emissions Duraspark system uses full 12V at both cranking/starting and in the run position. Instead of doing a bunch of wiring removal and keeping with the concept of being able to change back to original if ever wanted or needed, I used the resistance wire to trigger a Bosch 30/40 amp relay to send full 12V+ battery/alternator power going to the + coil terminal of the TFI coil, even the reduced voltage of the resistance wire trips the relay with no issues. I also wired the GM HEI with 10ga cable fused at the battery. The is the diagram I used for my ignition, just substituted the 5 pin for the 4 pin HEI module, it does show the HEI being powered by the solenoid, but I used the "I" signal to trigger the relay which allows it to power the module with 10ga wiring due to the current capability of the module:
 
Hey Todd,
 
I know you are away, but when you get back could you post some pics of your install?  I like the sound of your setup.  That wiring diagram looks a little different than some of have seen.  Don't the coil and module just need a switched 12 volt source?  Not sure what the module is connect to the "I" terminal?
 
Does this one look close to your setup?  It even has a relay.
 
 
It sounds like the HEI module triggered by a Duraspark might be the best of all worlds. The HEI is can fire a high power low resistance coil, there is no resistance wire, it has dynamic dwell, and the 5 pin even has the start retard.   And on top of that modules are probably the most available ever produced.  It seems these modules are used for all sorts of other makes too, even import guys use them.
Vince

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-March-2017 at 2:15PM
Originally posted by 72FordGTS 72FordGTS wrote:

 
Yes, it looks like a late 1976 tach could be adapted to an earlier cluster. I think the hardest part would be finding one. This would eliminate the problems associated with the current sensing tach. 
 
IIRC a 3 wire Bronco tach can be swapped in also?
 
and there was a Fox body Mustang tach too?


Edited by Rockatansky - 13-March-2017 at 2:16PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-March-2017 at 12:01PM
Vince,
 I should be back in town on Saturday, I will look over my notes and/or wiring and hopefully post some pics.
www.supermotors.net/22468
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-March-2017 at 1:52PM
Originally posted by Rockatansky Rockatansky wrote:

 
IIRC a 3 wire Bronco tach can be swapped in also?
 
and there was a Fox body Mustang tach too?
 
Not sure on those? Maybe someone else knows.  Mines off to Rocketman by the end of the week.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-March-2017 at 1:57PM
I have been doing some reading on the HEI modules.  They definitely have some advantages over the Duraspark II, mostly with the fact that there is much more ignition energy overall with the HEI system because of the lack of resistor and the low resistance coil.
This is a great read comparing an HEI ignition's output to a stock Mopar Electronic ignition.  I would think the Duraspark II would be similar to the Mopar ignition output since they are fairly close in design concept.  A red strain Duraspark I system would probably be closer to a HEI, but impossible to find any real test data on that system.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-March-2017 at 12:22PM
So Todd shared his pics and info with me and with his permission, I thought I'd share it on this thread for future reference.  
 
Thanks Todd!
Here are some pics of coil and module mounts/locations.
 
 
 
 
 
Here is a diagram or quick drawing on how I wired up my Duraspark II/5 pin GM HEI ignition module with Bosch 30/40 relays.  
 
I used 3 separate relays, from left to right:
 
 
A) 1st Relay that sends a ground signal to the HEI module's 5th pin which retards start-up ignition timing 5 degrees. The positive trigger to this relay is sent from the original Duraspark II wiring plug, WHITE WIRE is energized only in start position. The way the relay is wired changes the "+" trigger to a "-" signal to the module. Once key goes to "RUN" position the ground signal no longer exists on the 5 pin and ignition timing resumes to whatever the initial timing is set to.
 
 
B) 2nd Relay sends BATTERY voltage to the "B" terminal of the module only when the ignition is in the start and run positions, the "+" trigger wire for this relay is the GREEN/RED STRIPE wire which also energizes the 3G alternator to "turn on" and charge. I used 10 gauge wire to connect the "B" module to the relay's #87 and #30 wire to the battery, the other wires used for triggering are 16 gauge.
 
C) 3rd Relay takes the original ignition's resistance wire voltage and uses it as a "+" trigger on the #86 terminal, which is reduced (around 7.5 Volts or so)to save the Duraspark II's module from overheating, changes it to full battery voltage and sends it to the newer Ford E-core coils "+" terminal.  

All the connections that are from the battery to the relays are individually fused protected, as well as the "+" trigger wires.

The ignition coils I have tested varied quite a bit, here is a run down on what I have at my shop and/or acquired over the years.
 
Original replacement Duraspark II coil:
1.6 ohms        primary
9.09K ohms     secondary
 
MSD 2F Duraspark II replacement coil:
.9 ohms        primary
4.66K ohms   secondary
Crane LX92 ***must be used with capacitive ignition***:
.3 ohms         primary
.901K ohms      secondary
 
Ford E73F coil "E-core" coil  ##This is the coil I used##:
.50 ohms          primary
7.45K                secondary
 


Edited by 72FordGTS - 23-March-2017 at 12:50PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-March-2017 at 12:32PM
Dang, I've got to do some underhood detailing. Wink 
www.supermotors.net/22468
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-March-2017 at 12:32PM
Todd mentions he used the TFI coil with .5 ohm resistance in his setup with an HEI module.  The HEI modules need a low resitance coil.  Coil selection seems to be very important for the module to work properly.  
 
 
Here is some comparisons on an HEI module firing different coils.  As you can see, the higher resistance coils produce much less energy.  This results were performed with a standard GM HEI 4-pin module, which limits the current to about 5.5-6.0 AMPS.  Some aftermarket HEI modules have higher current limiting of 7 amps or more.
 
 
This is a 0.5 Ohm coil.  Notice that the module hits the almost 6.0 amps, then levels off.  This is the current limiting feature in the HEI coil. 
 
 
 
This is a 1.5 Ohm coil.  Notice the coil takes longer to reach it's peak, and it only peaks at about 3 amps.  This is more like the power on a points ignition that has a resistor wire limiting the current.
 
 
 
This is a 4.0 Ohm coil.  It probably doesn't have enough power to fire a plug.
 
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by 72FordGTS - 23-March-2017 at 12:39PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-March-2017 at 12:33PM
Originally posted by aquartlow aquartlow wrote:

Dang, I've got to do some underhood detailing. Wink 
 
Ah, it's not bad, better than my car looks underhood now. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-March-2017 at 12:49PM
Originally posted by 72FordGTS 72FordGTS wrote:

Todd mentions he used the TFI coil with .5 ohm resistance in his setup with an HEI module.  The HEI modules need a low resitance coil.  Coil selection seems to be very important for the module to work properly.  
 
 
Here is some comparisons on an HEI module firing different coils.  As you can see, the higher resistance coils produce much less energy.  This results were performed with a standard GM HEI 4-pin module, which limits the current to about 5.5-6.0 AMPS.  Some aftermarket HEI modules have higher current limiting of 7 amps or more.
 
 
This is a 0.5 Ohm coil.  Notice that the module hits the almost 6.0 amps, then levels off.  This is the current limiting feature in the HEI coil. 
 
 
 
This is a 1.5 Ohm coil.  Notice the coil takes longer to reach it's peak, and it only peaks at about 3 amps.  This is more like the power on a points ignition that has a resistor wire limiting the current.
 
 
 
This is a 4.0 Ohm coil.  It probably doesn't have enough power to fire a plug.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Great info showing huge differences with minute resistance changes. I examined just about every part of my ignition system, from testing distributor cap coil terminal/rotor button resistance(HUGE variances between manufacturers), magnetic pickup, testing plug wires, even spark plug resistance varied widely between resistor plugs for my application(Autolite 45, Champion RF11YC and the NGK WR5's I am currently using(least resistance). 
www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-March-2017 at 4:51PM
Clap damn todd, you are our "resident mad scientist"!!! LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-March-2017 at 11:41PM
Originally posted by californiajohnny californiajohnny wrote:

Clap damn todd, you are our "resident mad scientist"!!! LOL
 
Nah,
 I just get bored easily Big smile, then I get up to my eyeballs with the work involved in trying to improve things, kinda like totally remodeling an entire bathroom because of a leaky faucet Confused. I know, I know, It's a disease....err an obsession Embarrassed, but it definitely keeps things interesting LOL
www.supermotors.net/22468
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No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gentrysgarage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-April-2017 at 5:16PM
I have learned a lesson today....Even if you dislike a company (in this case MSD) read the posts. It would have saved me 2-3 whole days searching the internet to  come up with what Todd described here 2 weeks ago. A side note if you have a truck Junkyardgenius.com has a great inexpensive dual battery setup.
Thanks to Todd and Vince
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