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Power brake to manual conversion

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ilyes View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ilyes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Power brake to manual conversion
    Posted: 13-January-2015 at 12:11AM
I don't remember seeing a thread talking about going from power to manual brakes.
It seems my master is gone, and so is the booster.i want to go manual brakes in the future, but I may have to make it happen sooner. Do you guys know if the power brake pedal is the same a non power pedal? I now they are not the same between an automatic vs 4 speed.

Other than that, has anybody tried the conversion before? Any tips? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dave302 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-January-2015 at 2:07AM
Originally posted by ilyes ilyes wrote:

Do you guys know if the power brake pedal is the same a non power pedal?
No they are not the same, the Pivot is in a different place on a Manual Brake Pedal.
 
 
You can find a brake pedal from a 1972 Torino that has manual brakes, or you can convert your power brake pedal into a manual brake pedal.
 

You can grind off the weld of the pivot, and then remove the Stud. Then you will have to drill a hole in the brake pedal assembly and install the pivot in the correct location for the manual brake master cylinder. Then you can weld the stud onto the brake pedal assembly.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dave302 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-January-2015 at 2:08AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Skinnys Garage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-January-2015 at 4:25AM
You will also need the manual brake firewall filler plate. This fits between the pedal support and the firewall to give you the correct mounting position for the master cylinder to the raised pedal stud position.
Scott -'73 Gran Torino Brougham

Past Torino's -'73 Q-code GTS, '76 Original PS-122 S&H, '73 H-code GTS, '73 Ranchero
        '71 Cobra 351 Auto, '70 351C Brougham 2dr HT, '71 351C Ranchero
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ilyes View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ilyes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-January-2015 at 3:16PM
Anybody has a template for that bracket, or one for sale?
How far up does the pin have to go?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-January-2015 at 3:40PM
I'm doing the power to manual brake conversion, here's my filler plate
 
 
a small sheet metal screw on each side holds the plate to the firwall, and I remember 2 very short & shallow headed bolts in the bottom hole positions from the engine bay side IIRC
 
not sure what the top 2 bolt holes do ATM
 
 
72 GT Ute
   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Regul8r Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-January-2015 at 5:09PM
WHAT AND WHY???
 
1st off WHY do you think the master AND the booster are bad?
 
Doing this to SAVE money?
You are gonna spend more than it would cost for new/remanned booster!
 
Ilyess, I am heading to the farm on Saturday and would pull a booster and send it to you if you pay shipping!  The master is on it too!
 NO WAY I WOULD EVER replace a power system on these cars with a manual system!!
 
 Rock Auto Master cylinder $17-35 depending on which one you get
booster is under $100
 
just saying for under $135 you have a new booster and master!
Direct swap, no issues, no spending hours fabricating, no running back and forth to the hardware store, no new nuts, bolts, pins, washers and a better system than any Manual set up you will put on it!
 
just saying as an example $100 worth of duct tape, plexiglass and tools to cut it to cover a broken side window then keep repairing THAT for a month instead of spending $40 and an hour of work on a new replacement window is NOT SMART. SAME principle here
Spend the LITTLE bit of money to make it right and never worry about it again.


Edited by Regul8r - 13-January-2015 at 5:19PM
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ilyes View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ilyes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-January-2015 at 12:12AM
Hey Carl, I want to go manual as the next engine won't produce enough vacuum to operate the brakes.
Adding a vacuum can won't help. We tried one on my boss's 69 Camaro, and it doesn't help enough.

The master is full of rust (most likely coming from the line), but brake fluid  leaks from the booster itself.
Also, if engine vacuum there is, the pedal does stay to the floor after the first pump. The system can't be bled either has air finds it way in it. The pedal travel is abnormal as well, and takes forever to come back up after each pump.
I checked autozone, it about $85 after shop discount to get a brand new booster and master.
If you go to the farm, could you grab me a set of wiper arms ( I only have the passenger side in the trunk).
Aslo, if you have a manual steering rack over there, I'll be interested in the future.



Edited by ilyes - 14-January-2015 at 12:13AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dave302 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-January-2015 at 12:16AM
Originally posted by ilyes ilyes wrote:

Anybody has a template for that bracket, or one for sale?
How far up does the pin have to go?
A manual brake master cylinder has a different pushrod than a power brake master cylinder. The manual brake master cylinder pushrod always stays attached to the master cylinder.
 
 
In other words: If you have a 1972 Torino with manual brakes you have to disconect the master cylinder pushrod from the brake pedal, to remove the master cylinder from the firewall.
 
There is a picture below of a 1972 Torino firewall with the manual brake alloy adapter plate attached between the pedal hanger and the firewall.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dave302 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-January-2015 at 12:22AM
In the picture below, the left side adapter plate is for power brakes, and the right side adapter plate is for manual brakes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote madmaxtorino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-January-2015 at 10:30AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GranTorinslo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-January-2015 at 10:58AM
If the big concern is not having enough vacuum to operate the brakes, why not try adding a vacuum pump like they do on forced induction cars. I'm no expert so maybe that plus a vacuum can would be your best bet. There is a whole range of varying quality 12v vacuum pumps, a quick google and I found one for $15 that pulls 16" might want to go a little pricier if the trade off is a better duty cycle or find a way to hook it up with a relay. I had a few friends with 03/04 cobras, all of them at some point bought vacuum pumps.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote foote500 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-January-2015 at 11:03AM
I also think this is a fools errand...


Edited by foote500 - 14-January-2015 at 11:03AM
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ilyes View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ilyes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-January-2015 at 12:32PM
I tried the vacuum pump on my boss's car before and after install. It doesn't feel good at all, the new manual booster has a much better feeling. 
I also happen to like manual brake/steering better than assisted.

If anybody wants to trade, that'd be great.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dave302 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-January-2015 at 1:33PM
Originally posted by ilyes ilyes wrote:

How far up does the pin have to go?
If you cannot find a manual brake pedal, but you do find the adapter plate, I would say that you should install the adapter plate and manual master cylinder onto the firewall, and then torque all of the nuts and bolts, and then make sure that the master cylinder pushrod is centered perfectly inside of the adapter plate hole (so it does not rub on the adapter plate when you apply the brakes).
 
And then put the master cylinder pushrod hole up against the brake pedal and draw a circle of the master cylinder pushrod hole onto the brake pedal, and this will be where to drill the new hole for the brake pedal pin/stud.
 
 
The reason that they put the pin up higher on the manual brake pedal, was because it gave better Leverage when used with manual brakes.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Bird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-January-2015 at 2:28PM
Ditch the power brakes for manual brakes? Might as well go whole hog and throw on front drums instead of discs... 1965-67 galaxie is a bolt-on accident waiting to happen conversion. LOL
Seriously, think about this some more. 2+ tons of ford, at speed, with manual brakes is not going to be fun.

The above post should be read in a "Grumpy Old Man" voice.
Almost forgot: "Get off my lawn!!!"
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ilyes View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ilyes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-January-2015 at 2:35PM
Ok, I hear you guys. I want manual brake, sure, but it doesn't mean I'm keeping stock front brakes either.
It's a matter of taste and also I'm planning accordingly for the future.
I understand the safety issues that might come up but when sized properly, a manual set up will match a power setup pretty closely

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dave302 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-January-2015 at 2:58PM
Originally posted by madmaxtorino madmaxtorino wrote:

http://www.forum.grantorinosport.org/73-manual-brake-bracket_topic10085_post98925.html?KW=#98925
I may still have his phone number if you need it.
 
 
To contact him by Email Click here.
 
 
To contact him through his ebay store Click here.


Edited by dave302 - 08-May-2015 at 8:43AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Skinnys Garage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-January-2015 at 5:35PM
I had to convert mine to manual, because the cam profile is a bit too radical to provide enough vacuum. Tried extra storage cans at first with no luck, but the bottom line is that extra parts (like a pump or hydroboost) just adds extra weight I didn't want. 
I admit, my car was put together with a straight line in mind and I live in a pretty quiet town without a ton of traffic, so no power brakes, steering or even a sway bar hasn't really been a problem. That said, my thinking has changed a bit about my GTBs future. The big block setup is probably going to end up in my '58, with a mild Windsor taking its place. When that happens, all the power options are going back on. It's just not as fun to drive when you have to work at it......especially at my age........Ouch  
Scott -'73 Gran Torino Brougham

Past Torino's -'73 Q-code GTS, '76 Original PS-122 S&H, '73 H-code GTS, '73 Ranchero
        '71 Cobra 351 Auto, '70 351C Brougham 2dr HT, '71 351C Ranchero
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ilyes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-January-2015 at 11:54PM
I've seen the hydroboost setup, never driven it though. It sounds promessing but doesn't come cheap either. I'm still not sure about the power steering as I never tried a Torino or similar car without one.
Back home, I always preferred driving non power steering car, the feel is just as good as it gets.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote unlovedford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-January-2015 at 2:47AM
Ilyes, I have manual steering and manual brakes on my red '72 wagon.

The brakes? I actually prefer them to the power brakes on the other Torinos I have. Pedal feel and pedal modulation is a big deal with me, as I like to maintain complete awareness with what the car is feeling/doing at all times. I live in a very mountainous and hilly area, and I have no issues stopping it from speed at all. I will go to 4 wheel discs in the near future, but I'm trying to figure a way to not use a booster.

As far as manual steering...

I really enjoyed it at first, but tired of the rotten ratio and 6+ turns lock-to-lock. I installed a far better ratio power box and just looped the line to keep it lubricated (but no PS pump supplying pressure) and immediately enjoyed the 3.5 turns and far better feel. Tougher to steer than the true manual box, but livable. I enjoy the feel of the steering "loading" as you toss the car into corners and then let her unwind as you hit the straightaway. The exact reason my Civic has manual steering - far more fun for me. However, my wagon has a 250 with a 3 speed manual. Installing a V8 with an automatic or 5 speed like I am doing will increase the weight on the front wheels and make it a chore to drive. Therefore, I am going with the 841 box and the larger volume late model Ford pump (or a Saginaw pump) to still have excellent feel and increase the pleasure. If I were staying with the 250? Nah, I'd keep the manual "power" box.
Joe
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote foote500 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-January-2015 at 4:34AM
And, I am speaking from experience here, my red 72 came with manual brakes with front discs. I had them changed over to power-why? Well, even though I was just using my car for short pleasure drives and the manual brakes were not that bad, there was still a delay in my "thinking", plus most of my panic braking comes from other people actions, and to figure in the lag time, I had so many close calls that just would not have been as close with power brakes.

Now with the Cyclone-it did not come that way, and on a car like that with it relative rarity, I might not convert to power-but then again how many potential buyers out there want to drive a beast. My thinking there is that being a manual transmission car, and having driven trucks for a job, the tranny will do most of the braking.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BadHabit351 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-January-2015 at 4:57AM
I swapped the vacuum booster for hydroboost. I used a 1978 Lincoln Mark V set up. I had to drill one hole for the pedal mount. I was able to keep my Torino master cylinder and used the Lincoln P/S pump. I made custom lines running to the hydroboost. I did all this for two reasons. My 393C only pulls 12" vacuum at idle and I needed the space where the vacuum booster lives to mount my clutch master cylinder.

Brake feel is great. It doesn't over boost at all. Comments from my buddies are all positive.

I've included a couple of pictures.






Edited by BadHabit351 - 15-January-2015 at 4:58AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BadHabit351 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-January-2015 at 6:55AM
Reman Brake booster (O'Reilly's) = $192 (including core)
Reman P/S pump (O'Reilly's) = $57 (including core)
Custom made pressure line to HB = $35
Stock Lincoln pressure line from HB to steering box (O'Reilly's) = $16
Stock Lincoln return line (O'Reilly's) = $12
Pulley for P/S pump (Summit) = $27

Some fabrication required to mount pump to 351C p/s bracket. I trimmed mine (to make it square) and then fabricated a spacer to mount the pump. I then welded that spacer in place on the bracket.

All total, about $340 using new parts. If you find a Lincoln in the junk yard it's even cheaper. I just happen to have a Mark 5 that I bought for the motor. Reckon I got my $200 back?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote unlovedford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-January-2015 at 7:09AM
Sheesh. I'll just do this swap and be done, for that price. Thanks for the info!
Joe
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BadHabit351 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-January-2015 at 8:46AM
I've put about 800 miles on my car since I got it (mostly) put back together. I did have a small leak on the steering box. I had to stand on my head and twist my tongue to the right, but I did get a line wrench on there. Seems to be no more crowded than normal with a C.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Bird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-January-2015 at 12:26PM
If you are gonna get a Mark V for the Hydroboost, might as well go "All-in" and swap the rear disc brakes in as well. Heck, swap the whole axle, use the 12" rotors and caliper brackets and get a set of 5x5 wheels.
Big brake swap, Check
Rear discs, Check
Hydroboost, Check.
460/C6...
All from one parts car
Oh, and some REALLY comfy seats...
The above post should be read in a "Grumpy Old Man" voice.
Almost forgot: "Get off my lawn!!!"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 1of197 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-February-2015 at 7:49AM
Hi Guy's

Newbie here.

I guess it's been long enough were I wouldn't be hijacking this thread. I found this thread because I have the same issue as Marc does. My 73 Gran Torino has front disc but they are manual & like Marc reaction time is very important to me. Especially since I'm gaining on 60! So Marc what did you have to do with that process????

Thanks,

Deejay

PS. My user name is not that I'm bragging I just  didn't know what else to use. Plus I'd figured it would grab your attention.

Last April I was very lucky to buy a 73 Gran Torino sport coupe with a factory four speed & 351 cobra jet.  I guess I'll go into that in the welcome mat???

Thanks again.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SirDan89 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-March-2015 at 9:02AM
Manual discs here and they stop great. What lag?
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