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ZCowher View Drop Down
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    Posted: 13-April-2016 at 3:05AM
Just to get opinions from those that know more than me. (I'm grabbing a copy of the build sheet some time next week.)The rebuilt engine has :
351c 
stock 2v heads I don't think the valves were ported
Engine Pro Cam (Melling) part # MC1733 .485 lift adv. Duration 282 Lobe Sep. 106
Keith black pistons and rings (I think 9.5-10:1 compression, I was told it was built to 71 Torino specs with my extras)
*Bored .030 over
Edel brock performer intake
Edel brock 600 cfm carb part number 1406
hedman long tube headers
stock crank 
stock oil pump and pan
accel super stock coil 
pertronix ingnitor one ignition

What should I expect from this engine. Hp and Torque wise?


Edited by ZCowher - 13-April-2016 at 6:54AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nuggets Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-April-2016 at 6:48AM
You don't port valves....you only port ports/runners

cam seems very mild, intake isn't anything fancy its just a reduced weight version of stock, your pistons and rings aren't the only thing to consider when checking CR you need the HG compressed thickness, head skim if any and deck height as all things changed, same with over size or stock pistons 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZCowher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-April-2016 at 6:52AM
Originally posted by Nuggets Nuggets wrote:

You don't port valves....you only port ports/runners

cam seems very mild, intake isn't anything fancy its just a reduced weight version of stock, your pistons and rings aren't the only thing to consider when checking CR you need the HG compressed thickness, head skim if any and deck height as all things changed, same with over size or stock pistons 
 Yeah that was a whoops on my end. I'll get the build sheet some time next week and know everything in detail shortly. It was bored .030 over as well. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nuggets Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-April-2016 at 7:04AM
.030 will raise the CR, will also need the head type 

are yours open or closed chamber? If its the 73 car odds are they're open, if its the 72 odds are they're closed
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZCowher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-April-2016 at 7:05AM
The engine came out of a 71 mercury Cougar
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nuggets Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-April-2016 at 7:08AM
71 would be closed chamber then, so yeah somewhere in the high 9s to mid 10s 


I'd look at stock power for that year and say add 30, maybe 45.....you haven't really added much to it
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZCowher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-April-2016 at 7:14AM
http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/spartan-atk-engines-cylinder-head-remanufactured-2f38/99980455-P?searchTerm=cylinder+head#

I had to replace one of the cylinder heads. This is the one I bought and it matched the other one.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nuggets Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-April-2016 at 7:31AM
Thats an open chamber head if the pics right....low CR, if you've built a 10.5:1 motor using them then good luck....it'll detonate like no tomorrow unless its got specialist pistons

Closed chamber 2v are pretty rare, I'd forgotten about that, closed top, open on bottom




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZCowher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-April-2016 at 7:34AM
Probably safer to say 9:5 to 1 then. Maybe I'll just bum a compression tester from the school tonight and find out for sure. lol Cool
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nuggets Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-April-2016 at 7:39AM



edit; google knows all Compression ratio ranged from 9.5:1 in 1970 to 8.0:1 in 1973


If its 9.5 then you'll be safe, over 10 then watch out


Edited by Nuggets - 13-April-2016 at 7:41AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Bird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-April-2016 at 10:41AM
Eddy performer intake... you DID get the one for 2v heads, right? One for 4v heads will have a SERIOUS port mismatch.
Your 1406 is more of a "slap-it-on-and-it-runs-better-than-stock-without-any-fuss-fidgeting-or-tuning" carb than a high-performance carb. Not a problem, but you are leaving some performance on the table. I have the same one because I didn't feel like dealing with a Holley and couldn't find a 4300.
Boring the block 30 over doesn't add power, and doesn't add compression. It's done to clean up the cylinders for a rebuild. The new pistons are where you would add compression.
Don't be too down on the open chambers, if you will be driving on the street, and the engine was built for open heads, you will never know the difference.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nuggets Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-April-2016 at 10:50AM
Boring the block 30 over should increase the compression....you're increasing the available swept volume but its got to fit into the same head chamber
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nuggets Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-April-2016 at 10:54AM
Bumps it up about .2 from a quick calculation....not a huge amount but still will make a difference if you're close to the limit
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Bird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-April-2016 at 11:20AM
Although you do increase the cylinder volume, it's a negligible amount and the replacement pistons typically take it into their design when manufacturing. It's not really a power adder, more of a step in the re-machining process. also, unless the piston and head gasket is a zero-deck design, the area inside the cylinder at TDC is larger as well. Actual performance gains from an overbore of 30 thousandths, with all else being the same is minimal. On a 351 with a 4" bore, you get about 5 extra cubic inches displacement. That is a little over 1%.
Not trying to beat a dead horse, but it's not the overbore making power, it's what you do AFTER the machine work that adds power.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nuggets Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-April-2016 at 11:27AM
I'd think on a proper rebuild it should be zero decked....depends whats been done though, if it has been then you will see a .2 increase in CR 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lynchster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-April-2016 at 11:55AM
Originally posted by ZCowher ZCowher wrote:

Probably safer to say 9:5 to 1 then. Maybe I'll just bum a compression tester from the school tonight and find out for sure. lol Cool

What's the lift and duration @ .050?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lynchster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-April-2016 at 12:17PM
Originally posted by lynchster lynchster wrote:

What's the lift and duration @ .050?

Nevermind, found it.

Duration @.050   I .204 / E .214
Advertised          I .282 / E .292

Lift                    I .484 / E .510

Lobe separation  I 106 /  E 118
Range                1500 - 4000 rpm

I'm going to say from what I've read your cam is all wrong assuming your compression is that high.
Your lobe separation of 106 really had me thrown. That's bracket racing lobe separation with towing cam lobes. Add both the intake and exhaust then divide and the 112 would make more sense.
Here's a few links from what research I've been doing. I never get these to work as intended so you may have copy and paste them,

http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/wiki/Cam_and_compression_ratio_compatibility

http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/wiki/How_to_choose_a_camshaft    

http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/ccrp-9812-secrets-of-camshaft-power/

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-April-2016 at 1:45PM
2V heads only came as open chamber in the US
 
AUS got closed chamber heads to reduce the chamber volume to match the 302 cu in displacement
 
'Aussie' closed chamber heads came off of 302C's
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-April-2016 at 3:19PM
i just noticed this... but isn't the head on the top a sb chevy? sure looks like it to me

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Bird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-April-2016 at 3:47PM
Originally posted by californiajohnny californiajohnny wrote:

i just noticed this... but isn't the head on the top a sb chevy? sure looks like it to me

 
Them sure do look like paired intake ports, with exhausts side-by-side on the center cylinders...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Power Surge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-April-2016 at 3:59PM
Originally posted by Nuggets Nuggets wrote:

I'd think on a proper rebuild it should be zero decked....depends whats been done though, if it has been then you will see a .2 increase in CR 




As Big Bird said.... you will not increase compression with a larger bore.

First off, it's a barely measurable amount. You're not increasing volume that much.

Second, even though you are technically allowing more air in the cylinder, you also have a LARGER cylinder. So there is no increase in compression.

Piston rings do not go all the way to the top of the cylinder. When the piston is all the way up, you are still compressing air in a larger area.

So the minimal extra air you're taking in, is also being compressed in a larger container. They negate each other. You get no compression benefits.

As for the original poster's question.... I would feel your setup, if it's about 9.5:1, would be about 300 hp.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-April-2016 at 4:34PM
swept bore area vs chamber volume, a larger dia bore will have more CR against the same size chamber
 
not a whole Censored of a lot
 
typical standard bore 351C w/ 1972 8cc dish pistons comes up at 8.11:1
 
bore it .030" and it makes 8.21:1
 
I use .047" thick x 4.1" dia gasket (Fel-Pro 8347PT=1), .035" deck clearance (stock uncut block)
 
 


Edited by Rockatansky - 13-April-2016 at 5:03PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZCowher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-April-2016 at 5:08PM
Originally posted by Big Bird Big Bird wrote:

Eddy performer intake... you DID get the one for 2v heads, right? One for 4v heads will have a SERIOUS port mismatch.
Your 1406 is more of a "slap-it-on-and-it-runs-better-than-stock-without-any-fuss-fidgeting-or-tuning" carb than a high-performance carb. Not a problem, but you are leaving some performance on the table. I have the same one because I didn't feel like dealing with a Holley and couldn't find a 4300.
Boring the block 30 over doesn't add power, and doesn't add compression. It's done to clean up the cylinders for a rebuild. The new pistons are where you would add compression.
Don't be too down on the open chambers, if you will be driving on the street, and the engine was built for open heads, you will never know the difference.

It is a 2v intake for sure. As far as the CAM goes I think I read the page correctly but the part number is definitely MC1733 and its a melling cam  sold by engine pro.
What kind of torque numbers ?


Edited by ZCowher - 13-April-2016 at 5:15PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-April-2016 at 5:49PM
"torque numbers" you guys don't happen to have a chassis dyno at the school do ya??? Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZCowher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-April-2016 at 12:43AM
Originally posted by californiajohnny californiajohnny wrote:

"torque numbers" you guys don't happen to have a chassis dyno at the school do ya??? Wink

Unfortunately not that Cool, not even an engine dyno. This school is more for a general mechanic than performance.

That would be soo cool though, even an engine dyno
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZCowher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-April-2016 at 12:51AM

http://engineproparts.com/downloads/EPCatalogCams.pdf

This came from engine pro, to answer cam questions


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nuggets Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-April-2016 at 12:38PM
Originally posted by Rockatansky Rockatansky wrote:

2V heads only came as open chamber in the US
 
AUS got closed chamber heads to reduce the chamber volume to match the 302 cu in displacement
 
'Aussie' closed chamber heads came off of 302C's


Yes 302c Aussie heads are closed but at one point 351c 2v closed chambers did exist too, they were short lived but shared the same cc chamber size of the 4v and the same kidney shame but they had the 2v runners and valves
 




Edited by Nuggets - 14-April-2016 at 12:38PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nuggets Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-April-2016 at 12:40PM
Originally posted by Power Surge Power Surge wrote:

Originally posted by Nuggets Nuggets wrote:

I'd think on a proper rebuild it should be zero decked....depends whats been done though, if it has been then you will see a .2 increase in CR 




As Big Bird said.... you will not increase compression with a larger bore.

First off, it's a barely measurable amount. You're not increasing volume that much.

Second, even though you are technically allowing more air in the cylinder, you also have a LARGER cylinder. So there is no increase in compression.

Piston rings do not go all the way to the top of the cylinder. When the piston is all the way up, you are still compressing air in a larger area.

So the minimal extra air you're taking in, is also being compressed in a larger container. They negate each other. You get no compression benefits.

As for the original poster's question.... I would feel your setup, if it's about 9.5:1, would be about 300 hp.

I'm going to agree to disagree here....


Whilst you are right in that the piston area becomes larger we don't know the spec of the build....if he's gone with a zero deck it would bump it up, as I already said it wont be much but on some engines its enough to push them into detonation territory 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZCowher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-April-2016 at 1:40AM
By my calculations, and speaking to the machine shop I had it at, it is 10:1 compression
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nuggets Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-April-2016 at 2:02AM
Good luck with that then, 10:1 on open chamber heads is a lot of compression!

I'd get them to double check it unless your cam is giving you a much lower dynamic ratio that is going to have issues detonating 
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