Print Page | Close Window

INFO: Braking Options….Hydroboost

Printed From: The Ford Torino Page
Category: Model Specific Forum
Forum Name: 1972-1976 Ford and Mercury
Forum Description: Technical discussion for 1972-1976 Ford and Mercury
URL: https://forum.grantorinosport.org/forum_posts.asp?TID=13549
Printed Date: 28-March-2024 at 3:15AM
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.06 - https://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: INFO: Braking Options….Hydroboost
Posted By: schottj1
Subject: INFO: Braking Options….Hydroboost
Date Posted: 11-March-2015 at 3:30PM
Hi everyone,

I have a 72 GTS with the 351C.  When i bought the car it already had a larger cam installed, and therefore has abysmal vacuum pressure.  This makes the power brakes not so powerful… They are incredibly hard to press, almost to the point of feeling unsafe while driving if i had to stop on a dime.  There is already a vacuum canister in use, but it essentially doesn't help at all.  So, i have been researching some different avenues as to how i can increase my braking power.  Either

1) Convert to manual brakes.  (But after doing some research on the subject it seems a little intensive and not worth it to me)
2) Buy a vacuum pump (Not opposed to this option, but don't really have any background knowledge on installing them/which one to buy)
3) Install hydroboost.  
This is the option i would like the most, but I have a few questions about it.  I have searched the forum (and the internet) and really the only info i can find is people suggesting it or having posted pictures of theirs installed. I just want to know where to buy one that bolts up!  It seems like a pretty straightforward process after you have the unit, connecting to the power steering pump, but where can I actually get one specific that will fit the car with minimal or no modifications (other than connections to PS pump)? 

My line of thinking was that lots of manufacturers would make bolt up replacements for a bunch of the older cars because it seems like a decent upgrade.  But I haven't had any luck in finding a correct unit for this year of the torino.  Does anyone have any suggestions, knowledge, or advice on the matter?

Thanks!



Replies:
Posted By: robot9000
Date Posted: 12-March-2015 at 6:17AM
By far the easiest, safest and probably cheapest is the vacum pump. 

-------------
1973 Gran Torino Sport
2010 Mazda 6
2007 Jeep Wrangler
2011 Damon Daybreak 35BD


Posted By: GranTorinoSport
Date Posted: 12-March-2015 at 6:31AM
aquartlow is using hydroboost successfully I believe, and there are a few others here.

You would need a Saginaw style pump with the extra port for hydroboost, but those are easy to come by.

Also you'd need a hydroboost unit. Some of the folks that are using it can tell you what the units are out of.

I, for one, have considered this for my Sport.


-------------
Scott Eklund

Webmaster


Posted By: dave302
Date Posted: 12-March-2015 at 6:53AM
There is a member who had installed a hydroboost unit from a 1978 lincoln mark V. He had to drill one hole for the brake pedal mount. He was able to keep his Torino master cylinder and used the Lincoln Power Steering pump. 
 
 
He had made custom lines running to the hydroboost. He did all of this for two reasons, his 393 Cleveland only pulled 12" vacuum at idle and he needed the space where the vacuum booster was located to mount his clutch master cylinder.

He had said that his Brake pedal feel is very good and it doesn't over boost at all.


Posted By: dave302
Date Posted: 12-March-2015 at 6:55AM


Posted By: dave302
Date Posted: 12-March-2015 at 6:56AM


Posted By: dave302
Date Posted: 12-March-2015 at 7:00AM
The parts that he had used are:
One Remanufactured 1978 lincoln mark V Brake booster from O'Reilly's = $192.00 (including core)
One Remanufactured 1978 lincoln mark V Power Steering pump from O'Reilly's = $57.00 (including core)
One Custom made pressure line to Hydro Boost = $35.00
One Stock 1978 Lincoln mark V pressure line from Hydro Boost to steering box from O'Reilly's = $16.00
One Stock 1978 Lincoln mark V return line from O'Reilly's = $12.00
One Pulley for Power Steering pump from Summit = $27.00

Some fabrication was required to mount the pump to the 351 Cleveland power steering bracket. He trimmed his (to make it square) and then fabricated a spacer to mount the pump. He then welded that spacer in place on the bracket.

The total cost was about $340.00 using new parts. But if you find a Lincoln mark V in a junk yard or a parts car to find these parts, it will be even cheaper. 


Posted By: dave302
Date Posted: 12-March-2015 at 7:10AM
He had said that he has driven the car about 800 miles since he had installed the hydro boost unit and he said that he has no complaints. He had said that it seems to be no more crowded than normal with a 351 Cleveland.
He did have a small leak on one of the hydraulic line fittings on the steering box, but he was able to get a wrench on it to tighten it and the leak had stopped.


Posted By: TV 2M8O
Date Posted: 12-March-2015 at 10:27AM
Dave,

Can you link to his thread concerning this install?

THANKS


-------------

TV 2M8O OUT
JOE
1976 Gran Torino S&H season 2-4 Clone
Project Blog: http://tv2m8o.blogspot.com/


Posted By: dave302
Date Posted: 12-March-2015 at 10:45AM
Your welcome. To see the thread http://forum.grantorinosport.org/my-story-73-72-gts_topic9376_page2.html" rel="nofollow - Click here.


Posted By: aquartlow
Date Posted: 12-March-2015 at 1:40PM
Originally posted by GranTorinoSport GranTorinoSport wrote:

aquartlow is using hydroboost successfully I believe, and there are a few others here.

You would need a Saginaw style pump with the extra port for hydroboost, but those are easy to come by.

Also you'd need a hydroboost unit. Some of the folks that are using it can tell you what the units are out of.

I, for one, have considered this for my Sport.
 
Scott,
 Thank you for remembering my hydroboost install. I used a HB unit out of a 90's Astro van ($25 from a U-pull-it yard) coupled to a remanned disc/disc 1 1/8" bore master cylinder for an '80 Corvette from AZ for $30-$35(the Corvette MC uses the same shallow bore as the Astro van MC, although the Astro van has disc/drum brakes). I rebuilt/resealed the HB unit, the seal kit was more than the HB unit($40). What made me use the Astro unit was their wide spread use(EZ to find) and their type of mounting plate that is easily removed with a large nut on the firewall side of the unit. I would do this mod in a heartbeat, I like how fast my BB accelerates but REALLY like how fast it stops(though other brake system mods take advantage of the HB increased braking effect). I use a Saginaw PS pump with the second return fitting on the pump's reservoir, the Sag pump has more PSI/GPM capacity than a Ford/Thompson pump, although you can use the Ford pump if you install a "T" fitting in the return line. It would be wise to use a PS cooler as well, I use a trans cooler out of a Chevy Suburban repurposed for PS cooler duties, it WORKS!  Here is a pic of the 2nd Astro HB unit I resealed/rebuilt, on the shelf as we speak:
 
 
Here are a couple pics of my install, they are a couple years old, so some things have changed.
 
 
I have approx. $150 to $200 in the HB unit, HB unit reseal kit, Master cylinder, MC stainless lines to proportioning valve and disc/disc proportioning valve. If any more info or pics are requested, please don't hesitate to ask.


-------------
www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires.

No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t.

Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone.


Posted By: GranTorinoSport
Date Posted: 13-March-2015 at 2:29AM
Todd, 

Since we are on the subject of your Hydroboost, could you please answer a couple of questions for me?

1. Astro Van HB unit. Why? And I ask this since a Mark V unit would also (presumably) fit our cars with no issue. Are the Astro units better, newer more reliable? Better fit? Cheaper? All of the above?

2. Corvette MC. Again, I must as why - but aren't you running 4-wheel disc from 2000-2002 CV? From that perspective, the F/R Disc unit makes some sense.

I have no issue with the Saginaw pump, have already looked into as part of a future effort to get new engine brackets (March serpentine) for the addition of a Sanden style AC compressor and 3G alternator. I also have no issue with the PS cooler, as I am already running one, but I would get a bigger one if adding Hydroboost.

Oh, and I'd have to change/modify my MC to Proportioning Valve lines, which are SS, so that would be a challenge. 


-------------
Scott Eklund

Webmaster


Posted By: aquartlow
Date Posted: 13-March-2015 at 4:12AM
Originally posted by GranTorinoSport GranTorinoSport wrote:

Todd, 

Since we are on the subject of your Hydroboost, could you please answer a couple of questions for me?

1. Astro Van HB unit. Why? And I ask this since a Mark V unit would also (presumably) fit our cars with no issue. Are the Astro units better, newer more reliable? Better fit? Cheaper? All of the above?

2. Corvette MC. Again, I must as why - but aren't you running 4-wheel disc from 2000-2002 CV? From that perspective, the F/R Disc unit makes some sense.

I have no issue with the Saginaw pump, have already looked into as part of a future effort to get new engine brackets (March serpentine) for the addition of a Sanden style AC compressor and 3G alternator. I also have no issue with the PS cooler, as I am already running one, but I would get a bigger one if adding Hydroboost.

Oh, and I'd have to change/modify my MC to Proportioning Valve lines, which are SS, so that would be a challenge. 
 
Scott,
1) At the time of my HB swap the Lincoln Mark V HB unit was $173 and the newest that the remanned unit could be was over 35 years old and due to the fact I have less than $70 in a resealed unit I went with the factory original "used" Asto unit(not knowing how many times a re-man unit has been "re-manned") and of course I can be on the "frugal"(read cheap) side. The Astro HB is very easy to get and it is dirt cheap at any U-pull-it yard and after a little research most aftermarket HB systems use this type of HB unit due to it's "universal" style of mounting. If you look at the 1st pic above, you can see the mounting "snout" of the Astro HB unit(upper LH in pic), you may be able to make out the threads on the snout. I made my own mounting bracket by using a 3/16" flat stock cut 5"x 5" (or so) and boring a center hole the same size as the HB "snout" and welding a tab that indexes into a "keyway" that is machined into the snout from the factory to allow for perfect alignment/orientation of the HB unit once installed on the firewall. I also drilled the four mounting bolt locations by the use of the original vacuum booster studs or by placing the plate on the firewall and taking a thin Sharpie, mark the bolt locations from inside the vehicle. The original booster had studs but I just used bolts placed through the brake pedal assembly from the inside with mounting nuts/washers on the engine side of the firewall
 
2) I went with the Corvette MC for a number reasons: A) It is a disc/disc MC which is what is required for proper operation of a 4 wheel disc brake vehicle(believe me, there are differences internally between a disc/disc and a disc/drum MC and it definitely makes a difference in braking effect). B) The Corvette MC has fender side outlets to keep the lines away from the engine/engine heat as much as possible. C) The Corvette MC has an 1 1/8" bore which is "usually" prescribed for a HB install, although the MC bore on a Ford SD w/HB are 1 3/8" IIRC. D) The Corvette MC has the exact same "shallow" bore as the Astro van's original MC used so no changes had to be made to the HB unit's pushrod length. E) Any parts store has these either remanned or new and are inexpensive(remember I can be cheap...err frugal), if I had a MC from a specialty brake company and I had an issue my vehicle would have to sit until the parts came in.
 
 
 I went with a GM based 4 wheel disc brake prop valve I purchased off of Ebay,(they have them in chrome as well) 
UNIVERSAL-BRASS-GM-DISC-DISC-BRAKE-PROPORTIONING-COMBINATION-VALVE-4-WHEEL-DISC
 
I investigated the gutting and/or modifying of my original PV, but I figured "new" was a better way for me to go and it is proven. IIRC, this GM based PV matches the outlet sizes of my original disc/drum PV, so I believe it was a direct swap(though, I will have to re-check this). Stainless brake lines are a bitch to flare from what I have heard, not so much a single flare, but when attempting to double flare the line it wreaks havoc. I did go with 2000 CV brakes front and rear, which really helped with braking "bias"(I didn't need to worry about matching the rear rotors to the increased front rotor diameter of the CV brakes Ford had already matched the sizes for me). There are a lot of rear disc kits(and they work great, from what I've read/heard), but I am not sure if they completely compliment the stock front rotor size or allow the rears to have so much braking effect it unbalances the vehicle during hard braking(an adjustable PV could solve any issues here though). There is A LOT of info to weed through and make the right decisions for your own application. I haven't had any issues with the breaking system at all, even my 15 year old son will tell me "Man, this thing STOPS". The only 2 thing I believe I would change is getting the braking system on my ride sooner and buying this flaring tool sooner:
This thing is the "sh*t" when flaring lines, I actually look forward to flaring lines now(how crazy does that sound). If any more info or pics are requested, Please, once again don't hesitate to ask.


-------------
www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires.

No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t.

Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone.


Posted By: schottj1
Date Posted: 13-March-2015 at 11:53AM
Thanks of the replies guys, I appreciate it.  Its a bummer they don't make a kit for our cars that includes the hydroboost unit, power steering pump, lines, and everything needed for the conversion.  I would be willing to pay a little more for ease of installation and knowing i have everything done right.  But from the sounds not it it doesn't seem too hard to do on your own.  Now i just have to find the time to do it! thats the hardest part.


Posted By: robot9000
Date Posted: 14-March-2015 at 6:19AM
An aftermarket vacuum pump is easier and you get the same result.  




-------------
1973 Gran Torino Sport
2010 Mazda 6
2007 Jeep Wrangler
2011 Damon Daybreak 35BD


Posted By: schottj1
Date Posted: 14-March-2015 at 7:56AM
True, but any decent one i could find on summit was in excess of 200 dollars.  Then after looking up some videos of them they appear to be almost obnoxiously loud.  If i could find a quiet vacuum pump that generated enough vacuum while still being economically feasible i might be more interested in that option. 


Posted By: GranTorinoSport
Date Posted: 14-March-2015 at 10:33AM
Hydroboost provides the added benefit of increasing breaking assist. So if you plan to increase your brake size, this would be a wise route. That is the reason I am thinking of going with hydroboost. My vacuum is a little low on the 521, but it is still do-able. If I go to larger brakes (which I plan to do in the future), then the hydroboost will be a good add-on.

-------------
Scott Eklund

Webmaster


Posted By: BackInBlack
Date Posted: 04-May-2016 at 4:52AM
Found some info for mixing matching parts that may be useful:
 
Ford power steering pumps (early Thompson style): 1100-1200 psi  @ ~1.85 gpm flow rate
GM (Saginaw): 1300-1400ps @ ~1.85 gpm flow
 
For hydroboost power steering pump is a higher flow Saginaw variety: 1300ps @ 2.11 gpm 
(Looks like this is done with the pulley ratio.)
 
So basically, the stock pump would be marginally ok but should get replaced with the hydroboost pump from the Lincoln.
 
 




-------------
-John
1973 GTS


Posted By: aquartlow
Date Posted: 04-May-2016 at 5:06AM
The Saginaw pump is internally modded, not by a pulley change(but I guess it could help). Here is link to flow and pressure changes done internally, they are very easy to do. http://www.gmtruckcentral.com/articles/2013/powersteeringmods/" rel="nofollow - http://www.gmtruckcentral.com/articles/2013/powersteeringmods/
You need the hydroboost unit from a Lincoln Mark series due to the bolt configuration where it mounts to the firewall(same as your vacuum booster stud location), a Continental/Towncar and/or Mercury Grand Marquis HB unit will have a different mounting stud location, not sure of a 75-'76 T-bird(probably the same as Mark series). I went with the Astro Van HB unit due to it's "universal" and removable mounting bracket which made mocking up my own mounting bracket WAY easier. Good luck, you will not regret going HB! 


-------------
www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires.

No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t.

Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone.


Posted By: unlovedford
Date Posted: 04-May-2016 at 5:16AM
I wanted to stay with manual brakes on my red wagon, but need better braking power with the roller engine, suspension mods and 5 speed I'm installing in it. That rules out manual brakes. Don't like the feel our original brakes have, so a stock booster is out. I figure the HB is the way to go, with the larger brakes I'm installing. I like the idea of easy parts availability on the GM setup, so that makes the decision for me. What type model/years Astro van most commonly has the HB setup?

-------------
Joe
1972 Mom's Squire Wagon
1972 Torino Wagon
1976 Torino       
1968 Cougar XR7-First batch
1972 Torino 460
1989 BroncoII/Jeeps/Titanimous
Popeye and Brutus (Rams)


Posted By: BackInBlack
Date Posted: 04-May-2016 at 5:49AM
I would rather use the Mark V booster.  However, I don't want to use a part that will be impossible to replace later.   These are looking scarce now...
 
Here is a link for a 70 torino...it looks like the Astro booster and you select the bracket of your choosing.
Check this out:
http://powerbrakeservice.net/new-1966-1970-ford-torino-hydroboost-brake-booster.html" rel="nofollow - http://powerbrakeservice.net/new-1966-1970-ford-torino-hydroboost-brake-booster.html
 
Really pricey...lots of master cylinder options for reference.
 


-------------
-John
1973 GTS


Posted By: aquartlow
Date Posted: 04-May-2016 at 11:04AM
Joe,
 I used a HB unit off of a '93 or '94 Astro(some Astro's are vacuum assist as well), it is the one that points straight ahead away from the firewall, the later models use a downward tilt to their mounting bracket. The Astro HB has an accumulator(gold in color) geared towards front disc and rear drum, if you want more assist install a blue accumulator(gives about 100 or so lbs more assist). I use the Gold accumulator and it works fine. I also hit the GM parts bin for a '79 or '80 Corvette master cylinder due to the Astro HB unit needing a "shallow bore" MC, the 'Vette MC fits the HB, designed for disc/disc applications, has the shallow bore and also allows the brake lines to exit on the fender side(more header room in my case). I do know the HB unit coupled with the 2000 Crown Vic calipers/rotors front and rear, my Ranchero out-stops my other vehicles( Toyota Sequoia, F250 7.3 SD4x4, John Deere riding mower....LOL).


-------------
www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires.

No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t.

Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone.


Posted By: aquartlow
Date Posted: 04-May-2016 at 11:17AM
Originally posted by BackInBlack BackInBlack wrote:

I would rather use the Mark V booster.  However, I don't want to use a part that will be impossible to replace later.   These are looking scarce now...
 
Here is a link for a 70 torino...it looks like the Astro booster and you select the bracket of your choosing.
Check this out:
http://powerbrakeservice.net/new-1966-1970-ford-torino-hydroboost-brake-booster.html" rel="nofollow - http://powerbrakeservice.net/new-1966-1970-ford-torino-hydroboost-brake-booster.html
 
Really pricey...lots of master cylinder options for reference.
 
 
 
The Astro van has a large nut that holds the bracket in place, the bracket is also "keyed" to the snout that sticks out the back of the unit. I fabbed up a 3/16" mounting bracket that I drilled to match my original vacuum booster stud locations then through bolted the HB unit to the firewall, I welded a tab on the bracket that aligns with the snout's keyway. I "picked" up a good used Astro HB unit and rebuilt it myself for under $80 using this  http://piratejack.net/2771004-hydro-boost-repair-kit/" rel="nofollow - http://piratejack.net/2771004-hydro-boost-repair-kit/ . BTW, the Lincoln's/Mark series HB units uses a spring for brake assist, the later units all use nitrogen filled accumulators. The unit you linked looks like a good part, just a little pricey for me and you are correct about the Mark series HB units getting scarce. Good luck


-------------
www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires.

No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t.

Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone.


Posted By: lynchster
Date Posted: 04-May-2016 at 1:18PM
Manual brakes maybe? Never used them in a hipo set up but I never had a problem with them in my 68 Belvedere. 

-------------
Chuck
72 Gran Torino Sport
13 Taurus SHO "Mr Pig"


Posted By: unlovedford
Date Posted: 05-May-2016 at 2:36AM
I currently have manual brakes on my '72 wagon. With a 250 and 3 speed, it was actually good. I like the feel and the ease of modulation. However, with 3X the power I feel that I need a little assist to control things if they get dicey. Besides, I am not quite sure how manual 4 wheel discs would perform.

-------------
Joe
1972 Mom's Squire Wagon
1972 Torino Wagon
1976 Torino       
1968 Cougar XR7-First batch
1972 Torino 460
1989 BroncoII/Jeeps/Titanimous
Popeye and Brutus (Rams)


Posted By: BackInBlack
Date Posted: 18-October-2016 at 5:21AM
I've been working on converting to Hyrdoboost...

This is what I've found using the 78 Lincoln Mark V unit. 
Mounting:  Not exactly bolt in.  Required me drilling, filling, fitting one of the mounting holes to get the upper engine side bolt to line up.  This required me to also fabricate a new spacer and extend the mounting hole in the pedal brace.  This also required me to fabricate a plate adapter bracket for the firewall.  From my experience mounting this I would recommend taking the Astrovan HB path explained in this thread.   The fact that you can make your own firewall adapter plate to fit without more modifications is a huge benefit, IMO.

Pedal linkage alignment:  Using the markv HB unit also messes up the booster pin to pedal alignment if your using stock pedals.   The orginal vacuum booster linkage rod had a drop down to the end of the pin.  This threw off the height of the booster pin on the brake pin relative to pedal pivot.   This changes the pedal ratio slightly.  There is a 5/8" difference in pin location on the brake pedal for lincoln HB and the orginal vacuum booster.   I'm having the pin relocated on the brake pedal, 5/8 higher thus reducing the travel and increases the pedal ratio slightly.  This will decrease overall travel slightly and decrease the pedal resistance which may not be a good thing.   I may have to switch to a 1 1/8" or 1 1/4" master cylinder to compensate; to provide good pedal feel. 

http://s1142.photobucket.com/user/jj27606/media/20161016_082747.jpg.html" rel="nofollow">

FYI...if I had to do it all over again I would do the Astrovan implementation.  Good job, BTW, for sorting that out.




-------------
-John
1973 GTS


Posted By: jhggtsf
Date Posted: 18-October-2016 at 6:07AM
Has anyone thought of using the hydroboost from a 96-04 Mustang GT?

Those are at least plentiful. Bolt pattern looks similar to the vacuum booster above, although the Mustang flange is at a small angle...


-------------
Joe


Posted By: mlachance112785
Date Posted: 18-October-2016 at 7:39AM
I used a booster from a Mark V as well. I also took the whole brake pedal assembly from the donor car. No modding there. Everything bolted up in my 77. The only thing I did have to do, was make a panel and secure it to the firewall. The hole is larger than what the hydroboost needed. 


Hope these help. 


-------------
77 Cougar XR7 460/C6


Posted By: aquartlow
Date Posted: 18-October-2016 at 8:15AM
FWIW, I would go with the 1 1/8" bore MC, that is what all the 70's Lincolns came with when equipped with HB. A 1 1/4" bore will give a harder pedal that will become tiresome over time(unless you go to the gym frequently LOL).  

-------------
www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires.

No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t.

Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone.


Posted By: aquartlow
Date Posted: 18-October-2016 at 8:18AM
Nice work! Did you also install the 4 wheel disc prop valve, really makes a difference due to split and slope differences between a disc/drum and disc/disc prop valve. Another plus using the Mark V unit is the SAE inverted flare fittings, whereas the Astro unit uses metric fittings with O-ring seals(I used adapters without any leaks). Once again nice work.
 
Mark, this was in reference to the images you posted above. Sorry for not quoting your reply.


-------------
www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires.

No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t.

Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone.


Posted By: jhggtsf
Date Posted: 18-October-2016 at 8:38AM
Originally posted by mlachance112785 mlachance112785 wrote:

I also took the whole brake pedal assembly from the donor car.


You don't happen to have pictures of the two pedal assemblies to see the differences between them?


-------------
Joe


Posted By: BackInBlack
Date Posted: 18-October-2016 at 9:37AM
I forgot to add that I was putting that in a 73 Torino.  It had similar elongated holes for the booster on the firewall, but hte one hole was 1/4" off.  I also kept my original pedal brace and had bearings support welded in to hold the new clutch pedal.  

I was thinking the same thing...use the original Lincoln disc brake master cylinder when I convert to disc brakes.  For now I'm using the disc/drum original master.  I'm a little worred about moving the brake pedal booster pin up 5/8"....but I dont have much choice now.  I'm committed and I'm not going to redrill and weld up the firewall to make it line up perfectly.

By any chance does anyone have the pedal ratio from those years Lincolns or the distance from the pivot to the booster pin on the brake pedal?   

I may be fine if I match the lincoln's pedal ratio


PS Nice work!


-------------
-John
1973 GTS


Posted By: californiajohnny
Date Posted: 18-October-2016 at 10:27AM
Did you use the disc rear end from thr mark 5? Does anyone know the difference between the mark 4 and the mark 5 as far as differences in the rear end housings?calipers?rotors?Etc.???

-------------
JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE
74 VETTE CUSTOM
90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED
77 CELICA CUSTOM
75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED
79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED
75 VEGA V6 5 SPD
70 CHEV C10 P/U
68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION


Posted By: BackInBlack
Date Posted: 18-October-2016 at 11:07AM
No rear disc brakes yet.   I was thinking of going either Cobra rear disc setup from mustangsteve.com or Wilwood.   I haven't decided.

-------------
-John
1973 GTS


Posted By: mlachance112785
Date Posted: 18-October-2016 at 12:42PM
Originally posted by jhggtsf jhggtsf wrote:

You don't happen to have pictures of the two pedal assemblies to see the differences between them?

I might. I remember taking a few, but I don't remember if I saved them or not. I will check. I know for sure they are different though.


-------------
77 Cougar XR7 460/C6


Posted By: aquartlow
Date Posted: 18-October-2016 at 1:15PM
John,
 From what I have found, searching both many JY's and internet sites, the 75-79 Mark IV's and V's use the same rotors, calipers and wheel bearings. IIRC, the '72-'79 Lincoln axle housings will bolt right up to '73-'79 intermediates. The '72 Mark V's still had drums and the '73-'74's had different wheel bearings than the later units, 73's had some peculiarities and the 74's were kind of a transitional year for the Mark's brake system. The '72 Mark is/was 5 on 4.5" bolt circle, the later Mark's are 5 on 5" BC. Hope this is helpful.


-------------
www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires.

No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t.

Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone.


Posted By: mlachance112785
Date Posted: 18-October-2016 at 1:36PM
This is the only good picture I was able to find. This is the Mark V brake pedal.


Also, if someone wants to do the Crown Vic front brakes, I have an extra set of hubs made. For 74-79.




-------------
77 Cougar XR7 460/C6


Posted By: jhggtsf
Date Posted: 18-October-2016 at 2:16PM
Originally posted by mlachance112785 mlachance112785 wrote:

This is the only good picture I was able to find. This is the Mark V brake pedal.

Thanks!


-------------
Joe


Posted By: BackInBlack
Date Posted: 19-October-2016 at 4:57AM
Originally posted by mlachance112785 mlachance112785 wrote:

This is the only good picture I was able to find. This is the Mark V brake pedal.



This is helpful.  Thanks.   This looks like the pin is closer to the pivot than the 73 pedal.   Looks like I'll be OK with raising the pin on the brake pedal to align correctly with the booster.
-John


-------------
-John
1973 GTS


Posted By: Big Bird
Date Posted: 19-October-2016 at 12:49PM
Originally posted by aquartlow aquartlow wrote:

John,
 From what I have found, searching both many JY's and internet sites, the 75-79 Mark IV's and V's use the same rotors, calipers and wheel bearings. IIRC, the '72-'79 Lincoln axle housings will bolt right up to '73-'79 intermediates. The '72 Mark V's still had drums and the '73-'74's had different wheel bearings than the later units, 73's had some peculiarities and the 74's were kind of a transitional year for the Mark's brake system. The '72 Mark is/was 5 on 4.5" bolt circle, the later Mark's are 5 on 5" BC. Hope this is helpful.
Some/many 73-76 Mark IV/Thunderbirds  use a 9 3/8" rear end instead of a 9". Slightly bigger ring gear, 31 spline axle and tighter tolerances to make the ABS work without brake shudder or breaking R/P gears (backlash issue w/electromechanical antilock).
Many parts will crossfit, Shafts and bearings do fit a 9" if you change side gears to 31 spline (if it's not 72-early 73 "Weirdo" small bearing 9").
There are also some Mark Vs with rear drums. these were small lug pattern, small front rotor cars. Don't think they were hydroboost either. Only seen 2, and they were both 400 engine cars, don't remember years. "Joe'd" one for parts for a friend's Mark Vin the late 90s, and the other was bought/sold inside of a week probably 30+ years ago, with a "Bad tranny" that turned out to be a broken vacuum tee off the engine.


-------------
"What we do in full frontal view, is more honest than your cleaned-up mind."
Randy
1979 T-Bird
2005 F-150 STX RCSB 4.6, 3.55 LSD
How the Heck does a REGULAR CAB SHORTBED weigh over 5200 pounds?


Posted By: aquartlow
Date Posted: 19-October-2016 at 1:21PM
Originally posted by Big Bird Big Bird wrote:

Originally posted by aquartlow aquartlow wrote:

John,
 From what I have found, searching both many JY's and internet sites, the 75-79 Mark IV's and V's use the same rotors, calipers and wheel bearings. IIRC, the '72-'79 Lincoln axle housings will bolt right up to '73-'79 intermediates. The '72 Mark V's still had drums and the '73-'74's had different wheel bearings than the later units, 73's had some peculiarities and the 74's were kind of a transitional year for the Mark's brake system. The '72 Mark is/was 5 on 4.5" bolt circle, the later Mark's are 5 on 5" BC. Hope this is helpful.
Some/many 73-76 Mark IV/Thunderbirds  use a 9 3/8" rear end instead of a 9". Slightly bigger ring gear, 31 spline axle and tighter tolerances to make the ABS work without brake shudder or breaking R/P gears (backlash issue w/electromechanical antilock).
Many parts will crossfit, Shafts and bearings do fit a 9" if you change side gears to 31 spline (if it's not 72-early 73 "Weirdo" small bearing 9").
There are also some Mark Vs with rear drums. these were small lug pattern, small front rotor cars. Don't think they were hydroboost either. Only seen 2, and they were both 400 engine cars, don't remember years. "Joe'd" one for parts for a friend's Mark Vin the late 90s, and the other was bought/sold inside of a week probably 30+ years ago, with a "Bad tranny" that turned out to be a broken vacuum tee off the engine.
 
I have a 9 3/8" axle assembly from a '72 Lincoln Mark IV in my Ranchero, so I have done a ton of research on these somewhat rare/unwanted units.  Mine actually is a small bearing housing that had 11" drums/backing plates(sold them in a hurry since they bolt right up to small bearing 8-9" housings, but allow larger rear drum brakes than the previous 10" parts).
  The last year these were "supposedly" installed was '72(some, I guess could be a '73 model year), many erroneous articles and/or internet info say that these could be found under mid to late 70's Ford/Lincoln/Mercury's. I have yet to find any factory installed after '72 and I have scoured many, many a junkyard, but of course that does not mean they didn't or don't exist.
  This info below dates factory Ford differentials back to the early 60's to just before 2K, I have found this info to be VERY trustworthy(I verified 4 different tag numbers for 9" assemblies and they all were spot on, identification-wise). http://www.fordification.com/tech/rearends_ford01.htm" rel="nofollow - http://www.fordification.com/tech/rearends_ford01.htm
 I found I can never say never or always when talking Ford parts and/or designations, so I am not arguing the point whether or not these were installed in anything later than a '72 model year F/L/M vehicle, but seeing is believing.


-------------
www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires.

No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t.

Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone.


Posted By: californiajohnny
Date Posted: 19-October-2016 at 2:07PM
well the reason i asked about the mark 5's is i may have located one in a semi-local yard, got a line on possibly a 76 mark 4 rearend...third hand info but i should know more after 8pm tonight the friend of a friend is going to contact the person that allegedly has it---  story is it's at an elderly lady's place near the coast her late husband had it all rebuilt but never got it put back in the car before he passed.
 so if that don't work out i'll look into the mark 5 one if it's still there, just want to do my homework so i don't buy something that isn't going to work!!! done that too many times in my life Confused


-------------
JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE
74 VETTE CUSTOM
90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED
77 CELICA CUSTOM
75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED
79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED
75 VEGA V6 5 SPD
70 CHEV C10 P/U
68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION


Posted By: aquartlow
Date Posted: 19-October-2016 at 2:12PM
Originally posted by californiajohnny californiajohnny wrote:

well the reason i asked about the mark 5's is i may have located one in a semi-local yard, got a line on possibly a 76 mark 4 rearend...third hand info but i should know more after 8pm tonight the friend of a friend is going to contact the person that allegedly has it---  story is it's at an elderly lady's place near the coast her late husband had it all rebuilt but never got it put back in the car before he passed.
 so if that don't work out i'll look into the mark 5 one if it's still there, just want to do my homework so i don't buy something that isn't going to work!!! done that too many times in my life Confused
 
If you score the Lincoln and you are gonna part it out I got first "dibs" on the evaporator core, just found I have a leak in mine Ouch, R12 no less AngryAngryAngryAngry.


-------------
www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires.

No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t.

Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone.


Posted By: californiajohnny
Date Posted: 19-October-2016 at 3:02PM
i'm not wanting to buy the whole car! i was told the rearend was out--never got put back in! hopefully i'll know more in about an hourBig smile

-------------
JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE
74 VETTE CUSTOM
90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED
77 CELICA CUSTOM
75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED
79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED
75 VEGA V6 5 SPD
70 CHEV C10 P/U
68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION


Posted By: aquartlow
Date Posted: 19-October-2016 at 3:14PM
Originally posted by californiajohnny californiajohnny wrote:

i'm not wanting to buy the whole car! i was told the rearend was out--never got put back in! hopefully i'll know more in about an hourBig smile
 
Good luck, hope you score the axle assembly!


-------------
www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires.

No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t.

Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone.


Posted By: mlachance112785
Date Posted: 19-October-2016 at 6:51PM
Originally posted by BackInBlack BackInBlack wrote:

Originally posted by mlachance112785 mlachance112785 wrote:

This is the only good picture I was able to find. This is the Mark V brake pedal.



This is helpful.  Thanks.   This looks like the pin is closer to the pivot than the 73 pedal.   Looks like I'll be OK with raising the pin on the brake pedal to align correctly with the booster.
-John

I will try to remember to post pictures of my 77 pedal and hanger for reference. 


-------------
77 Cougar XR7 460/C6


Posted By: californiajohnny
Date Posted: 20-October-2016 at 5:40PM
Well I talk to the friend of a friend he thought that it was maybe the guy said it was a Versailles not a mark 4 or 5 still couldn't get ahold of the lady that owned it

so today I called that wrecking yard that 77 Mark 5 still have the rear end they looked said it is a disc brake rear end so that should be a 28 spline 9-inch that should fit right in my car correct???

-------------
JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE
74 VETTE CUSTOM
90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED
77 CELICA CUSTOM
75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED
79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED
75 VEGA V6 5 SPD
70 CHEV C10 P/U
68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION


Posted By: aquartlow
Date Posted: 21-October-2016 at 12:20AM
John,
 The Mark V axle housing/assembly should bolt right in with no mods(pinion yoke may need changing to match your driveshaft), not sure if there is a slight overall width difference between the Mark V and your original axle assembly though. The 77 assembly will have 28 spline axles from the factory and possibly a Trac-lok (2 or 4 pin). If you can have them read you the differential tag over the phone, go here http://www.fordification.com/tech/rearends_ford01.htm" rel="nofollow - http://www.fordification.com/tech/rearends_ford01.htm
to find out the year and vehicle installed, ratio, ring gear size, open/limited slip and axle spline count, may save you a trip if it doesn't have the needed internals.


-------------
www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires.

No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t.

Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone.


Posted By: californiajohnny
Date Posted: 21-October-2016 at 3:32AM
Yeah I want to measure it first the width but hey if it's got a positrac I'm going to use mine out of my car since it's all fresh maybe I can resell that part if it's got that I really only need the housing and the axles I'll buy all the other stuff new

-------------
JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE
74 VETTE CUSTOM
90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED
77 CELICA CUSTOM
75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED
79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED
75 VEGA V6 5 SPD
70 CHEV C10 P/U
68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION


Posted By: Big Bird
Date Posted: 21-October-2016 at 12:49PM
Should bolt right up, and your pumpkin should bolt right in.

-------------
"What we do in full frontal view, is more honest than your cleaned-up mind."
Randy
1979 T-Bird
2005 F-150 STX RCSB 4.6, 3.55 LSD
How the Heck does a REGULAR CAB SHORTBED weigh over 5200 pounds?


Posted By: BackInBlack
Date Posted: 05-November-2016 at 10:54PM
I've fixed the pedal pin height so now it aligns with the booster and doesn't bind.   Now I've noticed that the master cylinder push rod is different than the vacuum booster push rod.

Does anyone have pics of the master cylinder push rod or know where I can get a replacement for use with the mark5 hydroboost?

I think its a threaded rod that looks something like this...
http://www.tallonhydraulics.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=42_14&products_id=54


-------------
-John
1973 GTS


Posted By: BackInBlack
Date Posted: 05-November-2016 at 11:47PM
Correction...not threaded rod....there is a cup in the hydroboost like the one found in the master cylinder.   I measured combined length of 3.6in. So 3.5in rod. I guess I'll have to make it....can't seem find an easy replacement.

-------------
-John
1973 GTS


Posted By: aquartlow
Date Posted: 06-November-2016 at 2:49AM
IIRC, the pushrod for the Mark V/75-76 T-bird hydroboost units(I believe like almost every other HB units) have a female socket that allows vertical/horizontal movement, but the pushrod is pressed/swaged into this socket and won't (or rather shouldn't fall out) but still allow this 360 degree movement . I actually had to cut this rod on my Astro van HB unit in order to disassemble/rebuild/reseal it since it will not pull out of the socket(with "reasonable" force). Could you post a pic of this socket, it may reveal other concerns.  

-------------
www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires.

No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t.

Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone.


Posted By: BackInBlack
Date Posted: 06-November-2016 at 7:10AM
This is the rod that sits between the vacuum booster and the master cylinder.

http://s1142.photobucket.com/user/jj27606/media/20161106_134554.jpg.html" rel="nofollow">

This is the piston looking into the end of teh hyrdoboost booster where the rod seats.
http://s1142.photobucket.com/user/jj27606/media/20161106_132832.jpg.html" rel="nofollow">

This is the piston cup where the rod pushes the piston in the master cylinder
http://s1142.photobucket.com/user/jj27606/media/20161106_132849.jpg.html" rel="nofollow">

I was looking for a coupler and put two bolts to make an adjustable rod.   Ide rather get the correct part for the job with machined ball ends.   Can'ts seem to find an aftermarket part that would work.   Any help is greatly appreciated.

Everytime i get 1 step away from finishing these odd ball Ford stuff crops up.   



-------------
-John
1973 GTS


Posted By: californiajohnny
Date Posted: 06-November-2016 at 7:26AM
The end of that rod with the ball end adjusts, hold the splined part and turn the hex ball. The master cylinders should be the same depth between the torino vacuum and the lincoln HB the disc/disc master just has a bigger dia. Bore

-------------
JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE
74 VETTE CUSTOM
90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED
77 CELICA CUSTOM
75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED
79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED
75 VEGA V6 5 SPD
70 CHEV C10 P/U
68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION


Posted By: aquartlow
Date Posted: 06-November-2016 at 7:33AM
John,
 Excuse my error, I assumed you were talking about the input rod to the brake pedal Embarrassed
 
Here is a pic of my disassembled Astro van HB unit, you are in need of the "star" centering washer/spacer and the HB/MC pushrod located just above center in this pic......correct? If you have a micrometer(or at least an accurate measuring tool) measure your HB unit's bore, if it matches my extra Astro van HB unit's centering washer, I'll send it to you(along with the pushrod you can modify for length).
 
 
Again, sorry for my earlier reply. 


-------------
www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires.

No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t.

Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone.


Posted By: BackInBlack
Date Posted: 06-November-2016 at 1:28PM
Np...the bore diameter of the mark5 hydroboost is 1.5 inches (measured wit digital caliper) and the inside diameter of the cup in the piston is approx 1 inch. THE pic of the rod in the previous post is what came out of the old vacuum booster.   I thought it would work, until I started putting It all together.

-------------
-John
1973 GTS


Posted By: BackInBlack
Date Posted: 06-November-2016 at 1:49PM
Originally posted by californiajohnny californiajohnny wrote:

The end of that rod with the ball end adjusts, hold the splined part and turn the hex ball. The master cylinders should be the same depth between the torino vacuum and the lincoln HB the disc/disc master just has a bigger dia. Bore


That's what I thought till I started putting it together. ....they are different. Nweds a ball end on both ends and looks like there is a special washer that keeps it centered while you assemble it.

-------------
-John
1973 GTS


Posted By: californiajohnny
Date Posted: 06-November-2016 at 2:13PM
ok, i misunderstood what you had going on. but i used a lincoln mark IV master on my vacuum booster, and the depth was identical between the two masters.


-------------
JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE
74 VETTE CUSTOM
90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED
77 CELICA CUSTOM
75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED
79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED
75 VEGA V6 5 SPD
70 CHEV C10 P/U
68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION


Posted By: BackInBlack
Date Posted: 06-November-2016 at 2:39PM
Yeah its not the master cylinder....
It's one of differences between the hydroboost vs the vacuum booster. Most people pulled all the parts from a bone yard car.   I'm piecing it together...no good salvage yards near me.   I've tried. Typically have 1990s and newer.

-------------
-John
1973 GTS


Posted By: californiajohnny
Date Posted: 06-November-2016 at 2:52PM
so are you missing the rod thing from the lincoln hydro???

-------------
JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE
74 VETTE CUSTOM
90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED
77 CELICA CUSTOM
75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED
79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED
75 VEGA V6 5 SPD
70 CHEV C10 P/U
68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION


Posted By: BackInBlack
Date Posted: 06-November-2016 at 3:02PM
Originally posted by californiajohnny californiajohnny wrote:

so are you missing the rod thing from the lincoln hydro???

Yup...I'm missing the rod between the hydroboost booster and the master cylinder.   Its different than the vacuum booster rod.    

Looks like this
http://s1142.photobucket.com/user/jj27606/media/master%20cyl%20push%20rod%20disc%20003.png.html" rel="nofollow">

http://s1142.photobucket.com/user/jj27606/media/master%20cyl%20push%20rod%20003.jpg.html" rel="nofollow">

Looks like a star washer, another plastic washer, and spring.  

Its on this website
http://www.thehollisterroadcompany.com/hydroboost.html

I guess I can just make a simple rod and cut to size.   


-------------
-John
1973 GTS


Posted By: californiajohnny
Date Posted: 06-November-2016 at 3:51PM
does it just pull out from the mastercylinder end? because the 76 mark IV i got the master and prop valve from has a complete hydro still on itWink


 that link above was an interesting read!!Big smile


-------------
JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE
74 VETTE CUSTOM
90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED
77 CELICA CUSTOM
75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED
79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED
75 VEGA V6 5 SPD
70 CHEV C10 P/U
68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION


Posted By: BackInBlack
Date Posted: 06-November-2016 at 11:57PM
I bought rebuilt booster part from rockauto. It didn't come with these pieces.   I thought the original parts might work...I gambled on ford's common parts and reuse and lost.

So now I have to find those parts or fab them. I'd rather not cut up the original part, that's a last resort.

-------------
-John
1973 GTS


Posted By: BackInBlack
Date Posted: 07-November-2016 at 6:01AM
Bingo!   check this out.
http://www.tallonhydraulics.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=40_16

This may be the one...
http://www.tallonhydraulics.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=40_16&products_id=66

or this one...
http://www.tallonhydraulics.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=40_16&products_id=64


I wonder if I need this??  
http://www.tallonhydraulics.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=70




-------------
-John
1973 GTS


Posted By: BackInBlack
Date Posted: 14-November-2016 at 3:17AM
Wow...what a headache doing this.   What i've learned is it was basically easy for those who had a donor car to pull the parts from, but doing piece/part assembly like I'm doing is a real pain.   My advice would be to don't do it the hard way like I did.   What I did learn that may be helpful for others:
1.  Use the newer version of hydroboost found on mid-80's and newer cars.   Bendix was the original mfg but was bought by Bosch and hte later units have better quality control.
2.  Plan on relocating the booster pin on the pedal.
3.  The master cylinder rod and spring/retaining washer are hte other hard parts to find which come for free with donor car.

Locally, I tried to find a hydraulic company to make me new hoses.  They wanted to charge me 200-300 bucks.   Pfft...  I'm building braided hoses now.  I'm so sick of these vendors trying to gouge me...

Here are a few links that was hugely helpful getting my problems sorted.
mustangsteve.com
Helped my get bearings installed on the brace for pedal support. Also, relocated my booster pin on the pedal for me.  He has a lot of good info and various parts at reasonable prices.   Master cylinders, pedals, boosters, etc.
http://www.mustangsteve.com/clutchbearings.html

Tallon Hydraulics
To bad I didn't find these guys sooner.  He makes hydroboost adapter plates, rods, etc.   He supplied the mastercylinder rod and spring kit.  He was very helpful and supplies kits with everything for reasonable prices.  He has a Torino kit for a 71 and he was willing to discuss supporting these year(s) of Fords.  
EDIT: Also...FYI there is suppose to be 20 thousandths of play in the master cylinder rod when assembled.  No preload!
http://www.tallonhydraulics.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=40_16&products_id=65

Techna Fit
http://www.technafitstore.com/
These guys supply all kinds of hose parts.  More importantly they will build you hoses with whatever fittings you want.   To bad I didn't find them sooner.   Hope this helps someone avoid the pain I had to go through to get this assembled.




-------------
-John
1973 GTS


Posted By: aquartlow
Date Posted: 14-November-2016 at 3:53AM
Techna fit is a great place for a bunch of hydraulic "stuff" best prices I have found on fittings/lines, bought all my fittings and a couple of MC to prop valve supply lines from them. As far as pressure lines, you can get fittings that allows you to use simple hand tools/wrenches to make your own(I did this for my PS box supply line from the HB unit). I have to look where I bought the fittings from and I just went to my local hydraulic supply house and he sold me 2 foot of 3k psi line and actually showed me the correct way to ensure a leak-free union. Great info/links above.  Thumbs Up
 
Here is the place where I purchased the re-usable 90 degree fittings to build my own hydraulic line/hose.
http://fittingsandadapters.com/malinswiv90e.html" rel="nofollow - http://fittingsandadapters.com/malinswiv90e.html


-------------
www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires.

No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t.

Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone.


Posted By: BackInBlack
Date Posted: 09-June-2017 at 7:32AM
FYI...found this.  They sell kits for torinos
http://www.hydratechbraking.com/" rel="nofollow - http://www.hydratechbraking.com/

Also, I found out the reason why the power steering pump has two return fittings; one for the steering and hte other for hte hydroboost return back to the reservior on the pump.

Apparently there is a possibility that you can get some feedback from from one system into the other under hard use...   Meaning if you hit the brakes hard you can disrupt the steering.  Same goes the other way.   The power steering is expecting a pressure differential from high side to low side so when the low side see to much pressure it reduces the effeciency of either the hydroboost or power steering gearbox. 

Two separate return hoses prevents this from occurring.   I had always wondered "why does the pump have 2 return fittings...there has to be a reason for this? "   I dug into this and found this information to share with the members. 

You may be fine with a T-fitting, but there is a chance that under hard use you may experience this issue.   It may be fine but probably it would be best to move the t-fitting as close as possible to the reservoir.  The reservoir serves the function of dissipating the return pressure in the steering return such that it doesn't feed back into the brake return line.


-------------
-John
1973 GTS


Posted By: GranTorinoSport
Date Posted: 11-June-2017 at 8:14AM
Originally posted by BackInBlack BackInBlack wrote:

FYI...found this.  They sell kits for torinos
http://www.hydratechbraking.com/" rel="nofollow - http://www.hydratechbraking.com/

Also, I found out the reason why the power steering pump has two return fittings; one for the steering and hte other for hte hydroboost return back to the reservior on the pump.

Apparently there is a possibility that you can get some feedback from from one system into the other under hard use...   Meaning if you hit the brakes hard you can disrupt the steering.  Same goes the other way.   The power steering is expecting a pressure differential from high side to low side so when the low side see to much pressure it reduces the effeciency of either the hydroboost or power steering gearbox. 

Two separate return hoses prevents this from occurring.   I had always wondered "why does the pump have 2 return fittings...there has to be a reason for this? "   I dug into this and found this information to share with the members. 

You may be fine with a T-fitting, but there is a chance that under hard use you may experience this issue.   It may be fine but probably it would be best to move the t-fitting as close as possible to the reservoir.  The reservoir serves the function of dissipating the return pressure in the steering return such that it doesn't feed back into the brake return line.

A little steep at $850+ but I like that all of the guess work is taken out of it and it is a ready to install unit. 


-------------
Scott Eklund

Webmaster


Posted By: Rockatansky
Date Posted: 11-June-2017 at 9:12AM
definitely don't T the return lines together, it'll create back pressure in the returns and affect the pressure side of both systems, steering & brakes are not things you want fighting you under most circumstances
 
same with performance EFI and even carbed fuel systems, they recommend the return actually be larger than the pressure supply to prevent the return from experiencing any pressure.
 
returns need to be completely free flowing, a T junction will cause a restriction and pressure point


-------------
72 GT Ute
   


Posted By: GranTorinoSport
Date Posted: 12-June-2017 at 11:17AM
Is it possible to buy a brand new saginaw pump with the two return inlets?

And to use the pump, we only need to grind out a small section of the PS mount bracket?


-------------
Scott Eklund

Webmaster


Posted By: aquartlow
Date Posted: 12-June-2017 at 12:45PM
Originally posted by GranTorinoSport GranTorinoSport wrote:

Is it possible to buy a brand new saginaw pump with the two return inlets?

And to use the pump, we only need to grind out a small section of the PS mount bracket?
 
 
Scott,
 Rockauto supposedly still have them, look under a '75/'76 Thunderbird with hydroboost, Lares 2160. This has the pressed on pulley some earlier versions have the bolt-on pulley with woodruff key. IMO, The Saginaw pump is the better choice. Good luck.


-------------
www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires.

No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t.

Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone.


Posted By: BackInBlack
Date Posted: 12-June-2017 at 3:19PM
The saginaw pump with 2 returns is from a 78 lincoln. I have a new reman LARES pump with a new pulley lm looking to sell. Never used it.   I got a serpentine pulley system and now don't need the saginaw pump.

I never found a new one with 2 returns, maybe borgeson may have one, I can't remember. I came to the conclusion that you would have to get a used housing with 2 inlets and install a new pump.

-------------
-John
1973 GTS


Posted By: GranTorinoSport
Date Posted: 13-June-2017 at 4:45AM
What pump are you using in your serpentine set up?

I was going to go serpentine also, I had just assumed any press fit Saginaw pump would accept a press fit serpentine pulley (I am specifically looking at the March brand standard set up, not their super fancy single serpentine).


-------------
Scott Eklund

Webmaster


Posted By: BackInBlack
Date Posted: 13-June-2017 at 4:59AM
These guys have a new kit called the Wraptor.

https://www.cvfracing.com/351c-351M-400-serpentine-conversion-kits-s/168.htm" rel="nofollow - https://www.cvfracing.com/351c-351M-400-serpentine-conversion-kits-s/168.htm

Its bascially a GM LS setup modified for the 351C.  So it uses the GM type2 pump with a remote reservior.  The Beast kit and v-belt kit had problems with the AC compressor sitting to high which hit the hood.   I'm kinda the test guinea pig for this new kit.  I have had some install and missing part problems since I got probably the first one off production. 

It swaps everything around which required me to rewire and route the electrical and the AC plumbing.  Since I was removing and replacing it all anyway; it didn't really matter much other than the aggrevation and time.   I tried to get them to stick with the standard ford layout, but they are trying to keep costs down and use as many common parts across all the kits.  Andy is using their Beast kit.  He had to modify his compressor and the kit to get the AC compressor to not interfere with the hood.  I didn't want to bother with that and I wanted the spring tensioner on the single belt setup.

I'll add more info on my project page.

Basically...I started down the path with the Saginaw pump and one-wire alternator change out...then changed my mind and went with a kit.   So I have the parts, looking to sell.  I can't find a "classifieds" on our forum.  Looking to recoup some costs...my loss hopefully helps someone on the forum.


-------------
-John
1973 GTS


Posted By: GranTorinoSport
Date Posted: 13-June-2017 at 5:06AM
Borgeson has a hydroboost pump, P/N 800323 for $166.

They say it is a new pump!

I've had some crap rebuilt products in the past, that is why I'm so leary about them.

Oh, and there are new pumps available in a slightly higher class from PST Motorsports, but these are $450 pumps that have external reservoirs.


-------------
Scott Eklund

Webmaster


Posted By: GranTorinoSport
Date Posted: 13-June-2017 at 5:29AM
Originally posted by BackInBlack BackInBlack wrote:


Basically...I started down the path with the Saginaw pump and one-wire alternator change out...then changed my mind and went with a kit.   So I have the parts, looking to sell.  I can't find a "classifieds" on our forum.  Looking to recoup some costs...my loss hopefully helps someone on the forum.


Down in the lower quadrant of the main forum page there are the Classified sections - one is "Parts for Sale/Trade" which would seem the most logical section to post your parts you'd like to sell.

I have different categories for the various types of sale ads, and also to keep the large list of ebay and craigslist items from clogging up people trying to sell... brackets and pumps!


-------------
Scott Eklund

Webmaster


Posted By: BackInBlack
Date Posted: 13-June-2017 at 5:51AM
Originally posted by GranTorinoSport GranTorinoSport wrote:

Borgeson has a hydroboost pump, P/N 800323 for $166.

They say it is a new pump!

I've had some crap rebuilt products in the past, that is why I'm so leary about them.

Oh, and there are new pumps available in a slightly higher class from PST Motorsports, but these are $450 pumps that have external reservoirs.


Good...I thought I remembered see one for Borgeson.

Also, Lares does do a good job with reman units.  In my experience, they are one of the best reman sources.   Thats why I got the Lares pump...low cost...and still good quality.   I didnt want to invest to much in new stuff until I knew exactly all the details and parts of the switchover.  

Thanks for the classified path...not sure why I missed it.  I searched using the search utility and for some reason didn't return that section.


-------------
-John
1973 GTS


Posted By: BackInBlack
Date Posted: 13-June-2017 at 5:56AM
Originally posted by GranTorinoSport GranTorinoSport wrote:

Borgeson has a hydroboost pump, P/N 800323 for $166.

They say it is a new pump!

I've had some crap rebuilt products in the past, that is why I'm so leary about them.

Oh, and there are new pumps available in a slightly higher class from PST Motorsports, but these are $450 pumps that have external reservoirs.


Oh yeah...PST is good stuff.   The CVF racing belt kit reservoir didn't accommodate hydroboost.  I was bummed by that and complained to them.  Dont think they are gonna offer a different reservoir.  I ended buying a PST reservoir because it was the only one I found that had separate returns for hydroboost and power steering.


-------------
-John
1973 GTS


Posted By: GranTorinoSport
Date Posted: 13-June-2017 at 6:11AM
Originally posted by BackInBlack BackInBlack wrote:

Originally posted by GranTorinoSport GranTorinoSport wrote:

Borgeson has a hydroboost pump, P/N 800323 for $166.

They say it is a new pump!

I've had some crap rebuilt products in the past, that is why I'm so leary about them.

Oh, and there are new pumps available in a slightly higher class from PST Motorsports, but these are $450 pumps that have external reservoirs.


Oh yeah...PST is good stuff.   The CVF racing belt kit reservoir didn't accommodate hydroboost.  I was bummed by that and complained to them.  Dont think they are gonna offer a different reservoir.  I ended buying a PST reservoir because it was the only one I found that had separate returns for hydroboost and power steering.


You have a PST setup? Where did you mount the external reservoir and how do you like it???


-------------
Scott Eklund

Webmaster


Posted By: BackInBlack
Date Posted: 13-June-2017 at 6:36AM
So far very happy with the PST reservoir.  Has a built in filter, excellent construction, baffled, has hydroboost return,etc etc...

You get what you pay for I guess.  It wasn't cheap but I feel it was worth it for the quality and features you get in it.

http://s1142.photobucket.com/user/jj27606/media/20170612_212529.jpg.html" rel="nofollow">


This was the only place I could get it fit.   I tried everything.  I made a nice aluminum bracket for hte engine to hold it...didn't fit.  Tried making a bracket for inner fender well...looked like crap...coudn't fit on firewall (which is a bad location anyway) no room.  I will have to relocate the radiator overflow. 

http://s1142.photobucket.com/user/jj27606/media/20170612_213337.jpg.html" rel="nofollow">

the CVF resevior was way to tall after putting adapters and 90 elbows to route the lines.  So tall it wouldn't let the hood close.




-------------
-John
1973 GTS


Posted By: GranTorinoSport
Date Posted: 13-June-2017 at 6:57AM
That looks really nice, but I do see your technical problem with having to relocate the radiator overflow.

I see you have one return line going forward to a cooler.

It begs the question I have not thought about until I saw the pic:

If you have two return lines (hydroboost and PS), wouldn't each return line require its own cooler?


-------------
Scott Eklund

Webmaster


Posted By: BackInBlack
Date Posted: 13-June-2017 at 7:14AM
What Ive researched said they do not need 2 coolers.   The power Steering generates the most fluid flow and heat.   What I learned was...just run the power steering return through the cooler.   I'm sure there are some that would argue or may have a purist perspective.

Basically the cooler needs to cool the fluid...if you dont have enough volume through the cooler (meaning two small coolers) then you simply upsize the single cooler to drop the temp enough.

I'm using the stock cooler for now until I can take temp measurements.   I can always put in a larger cooler later if I find it needs more.


-------------
-John
1973 GTS


Posted By: Inkara1
Date Posted: 22-November-2021 at 11:16AM
I have a few questions...

If I get a HB unit out of an Astro, will it come with the rod needed for between the HB and the master cylinder if I pull it from a vehicle in the junkyard? And is that rod the right length?

Can I continue to use my current Gran Torino master cylinder (or a new/reman one) for disc front/drum rear? Or does something need to be modified? Or if I have to change the MC to something else entirely, what do I need for disc/drum?


-------------
1972 Gran Torino station wagon, light blue, 351C 2V, prior owner upgraded to 4V (2V heads), originally had a C4 but prior owner changed to C6 for some reason.


Posted By: aquartlow
Date Posted: 22-November-2021 at 11:48AM
The rod will be behind the Astro's "stepped" bore master cylinder. You will need to use a "shallow bore" master cylinder, a Ford MC will not have this feature at least not one intended for a Torino application. It may take some searching, but I bet there is a shallow bore disc/drum MC but it will be a GM design/look. Now with that said, you could get a new pushrod made/fabbed up that would allow the deeper bore Ford MC to physically fit just not sure of GM HB to Ford MC mounting stud measurements. Hope this helps

-------------
www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires.

No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t.

Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone.


Posted By: Inkara1
Date Posted: 22-November-2021 at 8:03PM
The other question... Will I have clearance issues with the Borgeson pump and the air conditioner compressor, either physically fitting or with being able to remove the cap and add fluid?

Also, I see from posts here about a need to grind on the mounting bracket for the pump. Once I grind it, can I bolt on the pump with a pulley and have the pulley line up so I can install the belt?

Or, if I keep my current pump, could I use a Y fitting instead of a T fitting to alleviate some of the issue of back pressure because the fluid would have to make less of a turn?


-------------
1972 Gran Torino station wagon, light blue, 351C 2V, prior owner upgraded to 4V (2V heads), originally had a C4 but prior owner changed to C6 for some reason.


Posted By: aquartlow
Date Posted: 23-November-2021 at 5:55AM
Never dealt with a small block and Saginaw PS pump install or having to use the Thompson/Ford pump with a T or Y fitting. The fitting "deal" has been done by others with success, I doubt using a "T" or a "Y" will make much of a difference due to it being in the return hose. 

-------------
www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires.

No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t.

Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone.


Posted By: Mr.Vegasmax
Date Posted: 10-March-2022 at 2:42AM

Raybestos MC36397 Professional Grade Brake Master Cylinder

https://www.amazon.com/stores/Raybestos+Brakes/page/45BD54F5-F9AE-4642-88B6-5897534CF564?ref_=ast_bln" rel="nofollow - Visit the Raybestos Store

$28.74


Posted By: patchel73
Date Posted: 13-April-2022 at 1:00AM
Important info from another thread. The firewall mounting holes changed at some point around 1974. I think a Mark V from 75 ( I actually know where there is one ) will fit the later Gran Torinos, but not earlier? ... I like the astro trick tho !



-------------
Gran Torinos ROCK



Print Page | Close Window

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.06 - https://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2023 Web Wiz Ltd. - https://www.webwiz.net