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Engine and Trans build, engine compartment detail

Printed From: The Ford Torino Page
Category: General Discussion
Forum Name: Project Updates
Forum Description: Post progress reports on your project car(s)
URL: http://forum.grantorinosport.org/forum_posts.asp?TID=16524
Printed Date: 18-January-2018 at 9:36PM
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Topic: Engine and Trans build, engine compartment detail
Posted By: 72FordGTS
Subject: Engine and Trans build, engine compartment detail
Date Posted: 10-September-2017 at 2:58AM
Finally, after years of saving, I have come to the point where I am ready to build my 400 for my GTS. I am hoping to get some advice from some of the more experienced engine guys here.


First off, the car has been in the family since day one, and will never leave the family. So I want to build this one right. Currently the engine is pretty stock, an Edelbrock Intake, Holley 670 SA carb, double roller timing chain, and some minor ignition upgrades. It has about 150K on it, and runs decent, but it's due for a refresh and more power.


My goal is to improve the performance of the car, while building a durable street only engine. I also want it to "appear" as stock as possible when done. The car has 2.75 gears in it now (26.5" tires), and it sees 80% highway. I'd like to keep the highway gears in the car since an OD transmission is really not an option. I am kind of looking more for vintage police car type performance, rather than 1/4 mile performance. 


So far I am thinking that I'd like to do the following:

  • TMI pistons, .030 over for about 9.3:1 compression
  • Keep stock crank and rods, probably have to turn the crank, recondition the rods
  • ARP fasteners throughout
  • Stock 400-2V 1972 heads, rebuild with one piece stainless valves (maybe stud conversion??)
  • Roller cam, possibly TMI Pantera cam
  • Scorpion roller rocker arms
  • Re-used the Edelbrock intake and Holley 670 SA
  • Would like to use TMI's new Ready to Run ignition, if available (basically a Durspark that uses an internal HEI module)
  • Double Roller timing set (I actually installed a Cloyes set about 5K ago)
  • TMI oil system mods and cam bearing
  • I am hoping I can use Sanderson FC4 headers or I could use Hooker Super Comps (very expensive)
I am not sure on the camshaft, but based on this build below, I think the Pantera roller cam would be a great choice.  This build (it's a long thread) was a 1978 LTD Ford with highway gears.  It is more geared than my car and significantly heavier and he reported good results.  His engine build was similar to what I posted above except he used Aussie heads.  These should flow about the same as my 1972 400 heads, but would have the closed chamber over the open chamber on my heads. 

https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1...part-deux.html" rel="nofollow -
Grind #: FC3630/3632 HR108.0
 
Intake, Exhaust
Gross Valve Lift:  .589, .602
Duration @ .006 282, 282
 
Valve timing
Open/Close at .050
Intake:  4 BTDC, 32ABDC
Exhaust:  44 BBDC, 0 ATDC
 
These specs are for cam inst @ 104.0 centerline
 
Intake, Exhaust
Duration @ .050  216.00, 224.00
Lobe Lift  .341, .348
Lobe Separation 108.0
 

I have considered TFS heads, but quite honestly I think they would push me out of the budget.  I am not sure how much power they'd be worth over running a decent set of 2V heads.  Also on the heads, would it be worthwhile to do a stud conversion?

I am likely going to have TMI (Tim Meyer Inc - https://www.tmeyerinc.com/" rel="nofollow - https://www.tmeyerinc.com/ ) do the engine build or most of it.  I am not sure if it I will get him to do the long block or the entire build and have it dyno tuned.  It's pricey for me, since I am shipping from Canada and dealing with the exchange. In any case, I think he's pretty much the guru when it comes to Ford 400's.

 
 
Any advice, comments are appreciated!



-------------
Vince

1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car



Replies:
Posted By: californiajohnny
Date Posted: 10-September-2017 at 3:24AM
Sounds pretty good to me! If im reading the cam specs right that should be about right, also if you haven't already I'd suggest 2 1/2" dual exhaust

-------------
JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE
74 CORVETTE COUPE CUSTOM
90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED
77 CELICA CUSTOM
75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED
79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED
75 VEGA V6 5 SPD
70 CHEV C10 P/U


Posted By: 72FordGTS
Date Posted: 10-September-2017 at 2:01PM
Originally posted by californiajohnny californiajohnny wrote:

Sounds pretty good to me! If im reading the cam specs right that should be about right, also if you haven't already I'd suggest 2 1/2" dual exhaust
 
Thanks Johnny.  I edited the post to make the cam specs more readable.
 
Yes, exhaust is going in after the engine is done.  I only have 2" duals now but that system is 20 years old so I will just start from scratch.


-------------
Vince

1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car


Posted By: californiajohnny
Date Posted: 10-September-2017 at 2:30PM
going from 2" to 2 1/2" helped my windsor breath betterWink


-------------
JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE
74 CORVETTE COUPE CUSTOM
90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED
77 CELICA CUSTOM
75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED
79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED
75 VEGA V6 5 SPD
70 CHEV C10 P/U


Posted By: lynchster
Date Posted: 10-September-2017 at 3:43PM
I would not consider myself to be an experienced engine guy. Just someone who knows enough to be dangerous.
I did a lot of research before having my built last year though. Since you're going to go with a 400 (my choice had mine not come with a 351CJ)you might look into using the 351CJ heads on yours. The open chamber heads should be cheap enough if you sticking with cast heads and the extra stroke of the 400 crank should make nice use of the larger valves and ports.     

You might want to reconsider the 104 lobe separation depending on what you want the car to do.

Here's a few links incase you might be interested.

http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/wiki/Cam_and_compression_ratio_compatibility

http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/wiki/How_to_choose_a_camshaft

http://members.uia.net/pkelley2/DynamicCR.html

-------------
Chuck
72 Gran Torino Sport
91 F-150


Posted By: Rockatansky
Date Posted: 10-September-2017 at 6:16PM
spec pile shows 108* lobe sep to be installed 4* advanced to a 104* intake centerline ....
 
but yeah not a great choice for this application, i wouldn't go less than 112* lobe sep
 
the tight LSA will create a peaky TQ curve & graph, the power band will come on gangbusters like a switch and will also fall of at some point just the same. a wider LSA will give a flatter TQ curve graph and what George Pence calls better 'over-run', that is to say the engine won't fall on it's face on the top end but keep pulling. it's all here http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5650045562/m/319104265" rel="nofollow - http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5650045562/m/319104265
 
one thing they never had back in the day was a quality set of adjustable bolt down pedestal style rockers Wink
 
small chamber heads will cause you to need to control static CR with dish pistons, and open chamber heads can be milled quite a bit if needed to adjust CR. the 4" stroke of the 400 has more effect on chamber volume than 3.5" 351's & 3" 302/5.0's ! 
 
 


-------------
72 GT Ute
   


Posted By: 72FordGTS
Date Posted: 11-September-2017 at 3:33AM
Originally posted by lynchster lynchster wrote:

I would not consider myself to be an experienced engine guy. Just someone who knows enough to be dangerous.
I did a lot of research before having my built last year though. Since you're going to go with a 400 (my choice had mine not come with a 351CJ)you might look into using the 351CJ heads on yours. The open chamber heads should be cheap enough if you sticking with cast heads and the extra stroke of the 400 crank should make nice use of the larger valves and ports.     

You might want to reconsider the 104 lobe separation depending on what you want the car to do.
 
Chuck, I have thought about OC 4V heads.  I would consider this mod if I came across a decent set, but there are two issues.  First, I don't know what I do for headers.  If the Sanderson FC4 headers will work on the '72 Torino's, I could use them.  Otherwise there are no other's I know of for this setup.  Second, is I wouldn't be able to reuse my intake, and would have to buy spacers, both of which would increase the cost of the build (spacers are quite expensive).  I am open to suggestions, so I haven't ruled that out completely.  I always though Ford should have done a 400-4V from the factory.
 
 
Originally posted by Rockatansky Rockatansky wrote:

spec pile shows 108* lobe sep to be installed 4* advanced to a 104* intake centerline ....
 
but yeah not a great choice for this application, i wouldn't go less than 112* lobe sep
 
the tight LSA will create a peaky TQ curve & graph, the power band will come on gangbusters like a switch and will also fall of at some point just the same. a wider LSA will give a flatter TQ curve graph and what George Pence calls better 'over-run', that is to say the engine won't fall on it's face on the top end but keep pulling. it's all here http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5650045562/m/319104265" rel="nofollow - http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5650045562/m/319104265
 
one thing they never had back in the day was a quality set of adjustable bolt down pedestal style rockers Wink
 
small chamber heads will cause you to need to control static CR with dish pistons, and open chamber heads can be milled quite a bit if needed to adjust CR. the 4" stroke of the 400 has more effect on chamber volume than 3.5" 351's & 3" 302/5.0's ! 
 
 
 
Rock,
 
thanks for the link from George.  I have a better understanding after reading that.  His stuff was all referencing 4V heads, but I am assuming what he is saying can be applied to 2V heads too?
 
Since this cam is a custom grind, could it not just be adjusted to have a wider LSA, say of 112?  Or if not do you have a suggestion on a roller cam (I don't want a flat tappet)?   I know my gears are limiting me somewhat, but with smaller diameter tires it's not too bad.  Right now I rev about 2700 RPM at 70 MPH, which is slower than most traffic.  To keep up with traffic I am closer to 3000 RPM.  I would consider 3.00, or 3.25 gears, but no higher.
 
Other than making the bottom end soggy, what will the gears do to the engine performance?  
 
 


-------------
Vince

1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car


Posted By: Rockatansky
Date Posted: 12-September-2017 at 12:44PM
Yes the 2V's follow the same characteristics of the 4V's as far as general cam basics go, some say the 2V's don't need as much exhaust bias but IDK? those dual pattern cams that add quite a bit of duration to the exhaust seem to be a little heavy handed to a fault. the long exhaust duration leaves the valve open late and dynamic CR / power suffers. the intent of the X bias is to give the engine a fighting chance through a full length restrictive exhaust system
pretty sure i remember George had a 2V recipe, and he likes toupdate them as new lobes come available. think of cam duration as the length of a sprinting stride, up against a blocking dummy (the highway gear). with a short stride you'll keep digging and moving the dummy forward .... how well would that work with a long full speed stride? it's crap! the long stride / duration cam sucks at low rpm & up against a heavy load
 
with your existing gear what do you think you'd want for a max engine rpm?
 
what does it run up to in 1st wide open / shift into 2 and what max rpm/mph do you want it to do?
 
what would your mph be at 5500 or 6000 rpm? Shocked 


-------------
72 GT Ute
   


Posted By: 72FordGTS
Date Posted: 12-September-2017 at 2:48PM
Thanks for the advice as always
Right now, the engine max RPM is less than 5000.  It seems to shift at WOT around 4700 RPM or so, but it's already losing power at this point. The engine is strong in the low to mid range now, even with the 2.75 gears and a traction-lok it'll do a smokey burnout. 
I think the WOT shift from first to second now is roughly 4700 RPM, and close to 50 MPH.  I'd like the new engine to pull at least to 5000 RPM and maybe max out near 5500 RPM . Not sure if I need it to spin up to 6000.
 
I ran some of those cams through my old Dyno 2000 software for what it's worth.  I also ran a Comp 268H cam as a baseline.  I used the flow numbers for a 2V ported head, obtained from George Pence's website.  The Pantera cam does seem to make more power in the higher RPM, than the 268 setup, and the 268 is a bit stronger down low.  Valve overlap is 66 degrees with the Pantera at 108, 58 degrees with the Pantera at 112, and 52 degrees on the 268H.
 
I tried to connect with Tim Meyer today but we played phone tag.  I haven't even mentioned cams to him yet, so maybe he will have some other suggestion.  I just grabbed this cam from a build for that '78 Ford LTD with the Aussie heads.  This Pantera Cam was in used in that build several years ago, so Tim may have a new version of it by now.
 
Ford 400 Pantera Cam:
 
 
Pantera Cam, with 112 LSA and advanced 4 degrees
 
 
 
Comp Cams 268H
 
 


-------------
Vince

1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car


Posted By: lynchster
Date Posted: 12-September-2017 at 3:22PM
Originally posted by 72FordGTS 72FordGTS wrote:


I ran some of those cams through my old Dyno 2000 software for what it's worth. 


Is it accurate at all? I though about picking up some type of software to play around with what I already had built and what effect changes would have on it.

-------------
Chuck
72 Gran Torino Sport
91 F-150


Posted By: Rockatansky
Date Posted: 12-September-2017 at 3:29PM
IIRC Tim posted an engine build, that thing graphed out a flat TQ curve all the way across the page
 
ask him if he remembers the torque monster build cam!
 
mailto:!@#$%" rel="nofollow - !#$% &* ph-ucket they screwed every thread on the net
 
but yeah it sounds like you got the concept for sure. all 3 graphs look the same to me w/o squinting, the TQ falls off before the HP (never) takes over. i wonder what happens if the Pantera cam runs 114* no advance? (advancing the cam causes a low end bias)


-------------
72 GT Ute
   


Posted By: 72FordGTS
Date Posted: 13-September-2017 at 9:30AM
So I just got off the phone with Tim.  He says the Pantera cam is an old grind and he has better ones to use now.  He didn't get into cam specifics, but figures with iron heads and his newer roller cam, it'd be somewhere in the neighbourhood of 360-380 hp and 450-460 ft-lbs.  I discussed the weight and gear issues with my car, and he assures me it won't be an issue as most of his builds are for far heavier trucks. He seems to emphasize he builds engines that don't always make the highest peak numbers, but will offer very good street manners.
 
I also discussed the heads with him, aluminum vs iron.   He states that it cost roughly $900 for him to complete redo the heads, vs $2400 for the Trickflows.  He does not do any port work when he does the heads, and states once I start getting into port work, and stud conversions, you're better off to upgrade to the aluminum heads because they aren't too far off cost wise.
 
So in the end, I am probably just going to ship it out to him sometime probably in November.  I am just not sure now whether I should do a complete engine or just a long block?  The complete engine is a fair bit more, but he will run it on the dyno and setup the carb.  So that alone might be worthwhile.


-------------
Vince

1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car


Posted By: 72FordGTS
Date Posted: 13-September-2017 at 9:32AM
Originally posted by lynchster lynchster wrote:


Is it accurate at all? I though about picking up some type of software to play around with what I already had built and what effect changes would have on it.
 
I think it's reasonably accurate when it comes to how certain changes will effect horsepower and torque.  Ie the effect of one cam vs another.  How accurate the overall numbers are, I am not sure.  I think years ago I did plug in a few magazine builds and it was reasonably close, but maybe a little optimistic. 


-------------
Vince

1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car


Posted By: Rockatansky
Date Posted: 08-October-2017 at 1:16PM
i think i found Tim's TQ monster. see how the graph doesn't tank after (or before) the curves converge?
that Censored's haulin the mail!
 
https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1332069-midnight-modified-400-stroker.html" rel="nofollow - https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1332069-midnight-modified-400-stroker.html
 
 
https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1397938-434-sets-new-tq-record.html" rel="nofollow - https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1397938-434-sets-new-tq-record.html
 
 


-------------
72 GT Ute
   


Posted By: 72FordGTS
Date Posted: 10-October-2017 at 4:11PM
Wow, those are some serious engines.  A little out of my price range though.  When I talked to Tim, he didn't really seem to get into cam specifics.  I get the impression he may not be too open to share his cam specs until I am a paying customer. 
 
Plan to start pulling the engine at the end of the month.  Anyone got any tips on how to ship an engine?  Any photos of an engine on a pallet would be appreciated.


-------------
Vince

1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car


Posted By: Rockatansky
Date Posted: 15-October-2017 at 5:09AM
yes a little more build than you're after but the cam is the star, just tweak it to your build and hold on
 
ship to Tim? he has a pretty good deal on rates through him 


-------------
72 GT Ute
   


Posted By: 72FordGTS
Date Posted: 15-October-2017 at 6:25AM
Yes, Tim has great shipping rates, but I will have to drive it across the border to Buffalo or Niagara Falls to get a good rate.  So I will ship it to him, but I need to secure the engine to a pallet and get it over to him.
 
I have a pallet to use and I was thinking of just using wood to support it via the pan rain?  Maybe some vertical supports to couple to the back of the engine block through the transmission holes? 
 


-------------
Vince

1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car


Posted By: californiajohnny
Date Posted: 15-October-2017 at 6:49AM
just screw down another chuck of 2 x 4 at all 4 corners on top of the 2 x 6 stack just to keep it from sliding forward or back strap it down it shouldn't move!!!
BTW that looks like a 350 not a 351 LOL hell send that SBC to me i can build it for you Wink


-------------
JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE
74 CORVETTE COUPE CUSTOM
90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED
77 CELICA CUSTOM
75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED
79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED
75 VEGA V6 5 SPD
70 CHEV C10 P/U


Posted By: Big Bird
Date Posted: 15-October-2017 at 6:58AM
That's a Chevy! They can do anything! They don't need to be secured! There's no holding them back anyway!

-------------
The above post should be read in a "Grumpy Old Man" voice.
Almost forgot: "Get off my lawn!!!"
Randy
1979 T-Bird
2006 GMC Sierra


Posted By: californiajohnny
Date Posted: 15-October-2017 at 7:20AM
Originally posted by Big Bird Big Bird wrote:

That's a Chevy! They can do anything! They don't need to be secured! There's no holding them back anyway!
Thumbs Up

-------------
JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE
74 CORVETTE COUPE CUSTOM
90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED
77 CELICA CUSTOM
75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED
79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED
75 VEGA V6 5 SPD
70 CHEV C10 P/U


Posted By: Rockatansky
Date Posted: 15-October-2017 at 7:27AM
that'd be a good start, some threaded rod, large washers & double nutted through some 2x4's over the top might get'r done 
 
first thing a punkCensored fork driver is gonna do is pop the strap then whadya got?


-------------
72 GT Ute
   


Posted By: 72FordGTS
Date Posted: 16-October-2017 at 12:21PM

Of course I know it's a Chevy guys!! Evil Smile  It was just the first pic that popped up during a google image search.  I like your idea of the support around the top Rock.  I don't like that tie strap either.  Once I get to that stage I will post a pic of my FORD engine to show what it looks like before I ship it out.



-------------
Vince

1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car


Posted By: 72FordGTS
Date Posted: 30-October-2017 at 1:25PM

So I am just  took the Torino on it's last drive today before I parked it for winter.  I was down by my local speed shop chatting with the owner  and I am reconsidering some of what I discussed here before (ie sending the engine to TMeyer Inc).  He's an old school Hot Rodder who's built countless engines and restored many cars.  I was talking about the costs of shipping the whole shebang to TMeyer Inc.  Anyway, with crossing the border and shipping the engine it will add a ton of time and expense to my project and he suggested that he'd do the build for me (and I could help).

There is a machine/engine shop just North of Toronto that he'd been using lately and he thinks they'd be able to do all the work fine.  He's sending his 1950's Hemi for his Rat Rod there for machine work, because so I trust his word.  I am going to try to contact them this week. Here's there website:
 
http://www.competitionautomotive.com/" rel="nofollow - http://www.competitionautomotive.com/
 
So now I am thinking instead of spending a TON of money to send my engine to have TMeyer do the complete build, I have two other options.
 
1) Just order my pistons, a custom TMeyer Roller cam, cam bearings and other specialty parts from TMeyer. Then have the machine work done for the block and heads by the above shop in Toronto. Then have the build done locally.
 
2) Send the shortblock and have TMeyer and have him do the machine work.  Get the shorblock sent back with a cam.  Then have the heads done by the Toronto machine shop and assemble locally.
 
Both options would likely save me somewhere in the four figures easy.  I know TMeyer is awesome and if he did the build it'd be great, but at the same time once I priced everything out its a small fortune (and I got kids to feed).
 
Any input or opinions is appreciated.


-------------
Vince

1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car


Posted By: stanman
Date Posted: 30-October-2017 at 1:28PM
Option 1.


Posted By: californiajohnny
Date Posted: 30-October-2017 at 4:35PM
option 1 sounds good Thumbs Up

put those kids out on the corner with a cardboard sign "need money for car parts"  lolLOL help pay for that build WinkLOL


-------------
JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE
74 CORVETTE COUPE CUSTOM
90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED
77 CELICA CUSTOM
75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED
79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED
75 VEGA V6 5 SPD
70 CHEV C10 P/U


Posted By: Rockatansky
Date Posted: 31-October-2017 at 4:47AM
no reason you can't put together a successful build sourcing what you need from where it comes from
 
you're miles ahead of the game being knowledgeable & educated as to what makes the Boat Anchor build work & not
 
maybe you've seen it already but here's a great description of how the closing point of the intake valve controls Dynamic Compression. also not sure if you've caught on that George Pence doesn't get into max numbers drag racing cam profiles, he's into 'sports car' performance that involves the kind of TQ curve i think you're after for your 72 
 
http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5650045562/m/4591090956" rel="nofollow -


Posted By: 72FordGTS
Date Posted: 31-October-2017 at 3:29PM
Alright so I got some prices from the Machine shop in Toronto and compared to what it would cost me through TMI.  If I buy the parts from Tim and have the machine work done by the Toronto shop it's almost maybe a couple hundred dollars cheaper than Tim machining and assembling the short block. So I might be further ahead to go that way.  That was the machine work with the rotating assembly balanced, which I think Tim's assembly includes if I am reading his documents correctly. 
It seems right now Tims prices on short blocks are pretty cheap but it gets expensive from their.  So maybe it would be worth it to send him the short block, and buy one of his custom roller cams from him.  Then do the rest of the assembly back home.
 
Toronto is cheaper than Tim on the heads.  Tim lists "economical stainless steel valves" while the Toronto shop listed Manley Stainless valves for their rebuild.  So I am not sure if they are comparable? 
 
Rockatansky, thanks for the link.  I will read through it when I have time.  I don't think I have read that one before.  I thought I read somewhere before that a lot of shops mess up 335 heads during a rebuild.  Is there anything special a machine shop should be doing to rebuild the heads?
 
Still thinking about what to do...


-------------
Vince

1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car


Posted By: 72FordGTS
Date Posted: 19-November-2017 at 1:26PM
So to update, I got the engine out of the car this weekend.  It all went well, I was even able to get the exhaust manifolds off without breaking a bolt.  I am hoping to get the engine crated up this week and it all goes well I will ship in early next week (if I have the time to make the drive across the border).
 
After crunching all the numbers, the Toronto shop had a bunch of extra costs they didn't tell me about so their prices weren't all that much better.  I am just going to get the engine to TMI and have them do the long block.  At least with TMI, they build these engines everyday, while the shop in Toronto they do all sorts of engines.  It's going to be expensive, but I know it will get done right.
 
I am also thinking I will likely pull my front clip while the engine is out and detail the chassis, firewall, and all the under hood sheetmetal.  The car was undercoated when new and while there is no rust, it's a real big mess.  I am thinking of having the transmission freshed up too.  So I will keep this thread posted on all that as well.
 
I had to max out the lift to get it to clear the header panel. 
 
 
 


-------------
Vince

1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car


Posted By: 72GTS351CJ
Date Posted: 19-November-2017 at 1:40PM
Can't wait to see the progress!! That red looks amazing on a 72

-------------
72GTS Clint Eastwood Special                                     


Posted By: californiajohnny
Date Posted: 19-November-2017 at 3:07PM
Clap i'm surprised that cherry picker went high enough with the leveler thing that added about 12"


-------------
JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE
74 CORVETTE COUPE CUSTOM
90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED
77 CELICA CUSTOM
75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED
79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED
75 VEGA V6 5 SPD
70 CHEV C10 P/U


Posted By: 72FordGTS
Date Posted: 27-November-2017 at 8:16AM
I was checking all the casting marks on my engine, and it seems both the heads and block were cast at Dearborn Iron Foundry.  From what I have read most engines from the 335 series family were cast at the Cleveland Foundry of the Michigan Casting centre.  According to Bubba's info only 1971 and 1972 400's were cast at DIF.
 
Here are some pics if you're interested.  Looks like the engine was cast March 17, 1972 about two weeks before the car was built in Oakville, Ontario.
 
So I drove down to Buffalo today and had the engine shipped out. 
 
Here's the engine getting packed up on the pallet.  I ended up using three straps over of the engine to keep it from tipping over.
 
 
Here it is about to be unloaded in Buffalo.  I used vapor barrier poly to cover it up.
 
 


-------------
Vince

1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car


Posted By: stanman
Date Posted: 27-November-2017 at 11:19AM
Did they give you any grief crossing the border?


Posted By: 72FordGTS
Date Posted: 28-November-2017 at 2:24PM
No real issues.  When I went back to Canada, the border guard asked where I lived (which is over 4 hours from Buffalo) and she thought it was weird I would drive so far to drop off an engine.  I had to explain that I was visiting family that was relatively close by, which seemed to ease her mind.
 
The engine should arrive at Tim's tomorrow. 
 
I am going to start looking around for a place to do the transmission. I might look into doing the E4OD low gear modification, since I want to keep highway oriented gears. 


-------------
Vince

1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car


Posted By: Rockatansky
Date Posted: 28-November-2017 at 2:48PM
with a proper cam you won't need the wide ratio trans build, that low 1st gear will make it leave like a school bus

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72 GT Ute
   


Posted By: 72FordGTS
Date Posted: 30-November-2017 at 12:24PM
Originally posted by Rockatansky Rockatansky wrote:

with a proper cam you won't need the wide ratio trans build, that low 1st gear will make it leave like a school bus
Can you explain this to me, because I am not sure I am following?  My engine will likely have a came with a range of somewhere in the 1500-5500 RPM power band.  I just figured with highway gears that the lower first gear would at least get you out of the hole better, while you could still cruise at highway speeds at low RPM.  This should have enough torque to deal with the wider gear spread.
 
I crunched some numbers and this is what I came up with for max speeds in each gear (with no converter slippage).  Basically the wide ratio gearset makes first gear have about 10% more gear.  So a 2.75 rear end would feel like a 3.06, or a 3.00 would feel like a 3.34 rear end.  
 
I appreciate yours or anyone else's input. 
 
Gear Ratio      Max Speed
 

2.46                        58.4

1.46                        98.5

1                              143.7

                               

2.74                        52.5

1.55                        92.7

1                              143.7

 


-------------
Vince

1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car


Posted By: MrSmog
Date Posted: 30-November-2017 at 12:39PM
if you run a OD trans, i'd toss a set of 3.50-3.70 gears and never look back.


-------------
Past 1974 Ranchero GT Q code

Present 1973 Q code formal roof base model Torino with ralleye equpiment package and 4spd.


Posted By: californiajohnny
Date Posted: 30-November-2017 at 1:19PM
it can also depend on your rear tire size some, if you're running 295/50/15's will be a little lower geared say compared to 275/60/15's Wink

-------------
JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE
74 CORVETTE COUPE CUSTOM
90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED
77 CELICA CUSTOM
75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED
79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED
75 VEGA V6 5 SPD
70 CHEV C10 P/U


Posted By: 72FordGTS
Date Posted: 30-November-2017 at 2:10PM

What OD trans can I run behind a big block bellhousing though for relatively cheap?  I don't want to get an E4OD which is too big and heavy.  I am already blowing the budget on the engine, so I want to keep the trans relatively economical. 

My math up above does account for my tires I have, which are about 26.5" tall. 


-------------
Vince

1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car


Posted By: Rockatansky
Date Posted: 30-November-2017 at 8:11PM
Yes you'll have plenty of TQ, thus no need for increased planetary multiplication. the 4" crank arm (stroke) of the 400 will have no problem turning your existing rear gear. i can't say for sure exactly where the point is but at some point multiplication will reduce the load to where the engine isn't doing any work, just turning rpm like a school bus wound up to redline doing 35 mph ... again maybe an exaggeration but to give you the idea of the concept
 
the higher / wide ratio trans's came about is because they're trying to move large vehicles with small engines, less power / TQ.
you're not going to be suffering from a small less power / TQ engine
 
what do the numbers look like with more gear?
 
 
 
 


-------------
72 GT Ute
   


Posted By: 72FordGTS
Date Posted: 01-December-2017 at 6:52AM
I wasn't sold on the wide ratio transmission, just one thing I am considering.  I do know that from speaking to Tim, he setups his motors to have lots of bottom end power.   I know this wide ratio mod will cost a lot extra versus just a straight rebuild of the transmission.  With the money on the engine, then headers, new exhaust, powdercoating all my underhood parts, this is going to be an expensive project.
If I had unlimited funds, I'd just build a C6 and run a gear vendors OD unit with a set of 3.50 gears.  But there is no way I can afford a trans, GV and a new third member.  So no matter what I choose, it will be a compromise in some way. 
 
I do a lot of highway, which is why I prefer to have the car setup for highway performance.  I guess I'd best described  I am kind of looking for performance setup similar to an old cop car rather than a street machine.


-------------
Vince

1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car


Posted By: Rockatansky
Date Posted: 01-December-2017 at 7:26AM
compromise / compraschmize
perfect 20/20 hindsight Keep It Simple & Less Is More would've saved me countless wild goo$e chases & backwards steps
what's better than a motor that runs, a trans that shifts and a rear fits the bill? 
 
take your project 1 step at a time, spend $ wisely & count your blessings in simplicity Big smile


-------------
72 GT Ute
   


Posted By: lynchster
Date Posted: 01-December-2017 at 11:16AM
The only way I see using an AOD with the big block is using an aftermarket bell housing. I've seen them on a quick search going for 4 to 5 bills.

I don't know yet if there is a factory bell housing that will swap.


JW Ultra Bell for BBF

http://i88.servimg.com/u/f88/14/28/56/33/img_0310.jpg" rel="nofollow - http://i88.servimg.com/u/f88/14/28/56/33/img_0310.jpg

-------------
Chuck
72 Gran Torino Sport
91 F-150


Posted By: 72FordGTS
Date Posted: 04-December-2017 at 8:47AM

Thanks Chuck, for the info on the AOD.  I remember looking into it a while ago, and was surprised at how expensive those bell housings are.  Buy one of those plus a build AOD and the prices get pretty high pretty quickly.

 
Rockatansky, thanks for the advice. I will just keep it simple for now.  I will have the C6 freshened up but just keep it with the stock ratios.  I looked at the TCI kits for the low planetary gear set and it'll probably cost me as much as having a local guy build my trans.  I think long term I will look at playing with the rear end ratio and maybe installing a GV OD (or maybe an AOD conversion).  But for now this should be fine.
 
I talked to Tim today and gave him an idea of what I was looking for in the cam. I told him I was willing to live with a rougher idle and wanted something similar to his old Pantera grind as I know this cam worked out decently in a '78 LTD with a built 400 and highway gears.  He said once we get to that stage and select the cam, we can figure out if I need to upgrade the torque converter.
 
Thanks again for all the input.


-------------
Vince

1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car


Posted By: lynchster
Date Posted: 04-December-2017 at 6:01PM
I like the C6. Upgrade the clutches and install a shift kit. It will shift a bit harder but helps fight the wear associated with the factory style slipping into gears. It will probably bark second when you launch it hard.   

-------------
Chuck
72 Gran Torino Sport
91 F-150


Posted By: 7T9_Tbird
Date Posted: 06-December-2017 at 12:33AM
New here guys, but wouldn't a AOD from a 90's Ford truck work? the 400M uses the BB bell housing pattern.  I've got one in My '79 Tbird.


Posted By: 72FordGTS
Date Posted: 06-December-2017 at 3:18PM
I am pretty sure the big block Ford trucks from the 90s used the E4OD not the AOD. And the E4OD isn't really one I'd want to use.

In the end I have to reel things in a bit for now. I will just rebuild the C6 and do some minor upgrades like the R servo, a shift kit and maybe adding more clutch packs. This should be relatively cheap, much more so than retrofitting a modern built AOD. Like Chuck says above, I really like the simplicity of the C6.

-------------
Vince

1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car


Posted By: fordismyboss
Date Posted: 06-December-2017 at 5:22PM
Sounds like you are going to like your rebuilt 400. I sure like that engine stand in the truck!

I was really concerned about not having an overdrive with my BBF, but decided not to go with a later model AOD or a gear vendors unit. After about 800 miles on my TCI C6 and 2.75 gears, I'm glad I stayed with the simple C6. Column shifter hooked right up with a C6 bracket, speedo cable was plug-in, new tranny cooler lines are off the shelf, factory trans mount bolts right up, stock drive shaft, and dip stick was easy. About 2500 RPM at about 65 MPH is pretty good cruising down the freeway. As for barking 2nd gear, YOU BET IT DOES!!!!!! YOURS WILL TOO!!!!    


Posted By: 72FordGTS
Date Posted: 08-December-2017 at 2:35AM
Originally posted by fordismyboss fordismyboss wrote:

Sounds like you are going to like your rebuilt 400. I sure like that engine stand in the truck!

I was really concerned about not having an overdrive with my BBF, but decided not to go with a later model AOD or a gear vendors unit. After about 800 miles on my TCI C6 and 2.75 gears, I'm glad I stayed with the simple C6. Column shifter hooked right up with a C6 bracket, speedo cable was plug-in, new tranny cooler lines are off the shelf, factory trans mount bolts right up, stock drive shaft, and dip stick was easy. About 2500 RPM at about 65 MPH is pretty good cruising down the freeway. As for barking 2nd gear, YOU BET IT DOES!!!!!! YOURS WILL TOO!!!!    
 
Thanks, I am glad to hear someone is happy with 2.75 gears.  Honestly, even with my stockish 400, I didn't mind them.  It wasn't super strong out of the hole, but even in stock form that engine is so torquey it seems to handle the gears fine.  On the highway the car is super responsive, it hits triple digit speeds almost too easily.  I think with this new engine, it should be even better and I am looking forward to the 1-2 bark!  Smile


-------------
Vince

1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car


Posted By: 72GTS351CJ
Date Posted: 08-December-2017 at 2:46AM
It's funny. ....Back in the day if you could "chirp" second gear you had a serious street machine. I had a ball chirping 2nd gear in my mustang.

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72GTS Clint Eastwood Special                                     


Posted By: 72FordGTS
Date Posted: 22-December-2017 at 7:04AM
I got an email from Tim.  He's wondering if I want any of my old engine parts back. Is there anything that is worth keeping?

-------------
Vince

1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car


Posted By: Rockatansky
Date Posted: 22-December-2017 at 7:31AM
the stock crank sprocket from the timing gear set, is it C8SE-xxxx ?
 
could be an original pre-retard sprocket that everybody wants to un-tard their cam
 
and it makes a cool paper weight :D


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72 GT Ute
   


Posted By: 72FordGTS
Date Posted: 31-December-2017 at 1:16AM
I actually already have the original timing set. I changed it a few years ago and upgraded to a Cloyes double roller set. But I guess I can ask him to give me that timing set back if he doesn't use it since it's almost new.

Any other parts?

-------------
Vince

1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car


Posted By: unlovedford
Date Posted: 31-December-2017 at 2:23AM
I'm a packrat, so I'd keep anything left over. You never know what you might end up with in the future and need something. Example: I had a set of mid 1970's small block heads. Worth nothing, really but I kept them for a long time. Almost threw them away several times. Then I ended up with enough parts to build a stock 302 (minus heads) so they finally came in handy.

-------------
Joe
1972 GTSquire Wagon
1972 Torino Wagon
1976 Torino       
1968 Cougar XR7-First batch
1972 Torino 460
1989 BroncoII/Jeeps/Titanimous
Popeye and Brutus (Rams)


Posted By: Power Surge
Date Posted: 31-December-2017 at 3:07AM
Originally posted by 7T9_Tbird 7T9_Tbird wrote:

New here guys, but wouldn't a AOD from a 90's Ford truck work? the 400M uses the BB bell housing pattern.  I've got one in My '79 Tbird.

The AOD never came on anything with the larger bolt pattern. So no go there. It also does not have a removable bellhousing like a C4 does. However, there ARE companies that make an adapter plate to bolt an AOD to a 351M/400/460. 

E4OD is a great trans, but it's BIG also. Might not clear the trans tunnel without some massaging. If an E4OD is desired, it can be stand alone controlled by using a Baumanator TSC controller. 

The C6 is a great trans, but man, that extra gear sure would be nice. I do 75-80 mph back and forth to work, and my 351CJ/C6 GTS is screaming around 3700rpms at 80 mph. 


-------------
Sal Mennella
73 GTS 351 CJ
75 Cougar XR7
73 Ranchero - 5.0 Coyote swap - in progress
Past Torinos - 72 Gran Torino, 75 Gran Torino, 75 Elite


Posted By: 7T9_Tbird
Date Posted: 31-December-2017 at 9:59AM
I found out after I posted that My car has the AOD, bellhousing machined off and a custom piece bolted on.  It's also has a 10" converter that locks around 3500-4000 RPM.Confused Gonna have to look into this a little more.

-------------
John
79 Thunderbird Heritage
79 Thunderbird Town Landau


Posted By: 72FordGTS
Date Posted: 17-January-2018 at 1:24PM
Update from Tim.  The engine machine work is mostly done.  He's waiting on parts. 
 
Here are some photos he sent:
 
 
 


-------------
Vince

1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car


Posted By: californiajohnny
Date Posted: 17-January-2018 at 2:37PM
looks damn good so far! Big smile


-------------
JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE
74 CORVETTE COUPE CUSTOM
90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED
77 CELICA CUSTOM
75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED
79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED
75 VEGA V6 5 SPD
70 CHEV C10 P/U


Posted By: Rockatansky
Date Posted: 18-January-2018 at 12:12PM
Originally posted by 72FordGTS 72FordGTS wrote:


 
 
 
 


 Aaaaahhh!! casting Flash-back!

i spent a lot of time going over my favorite-est block & heads with all kinds of smoothing utensils until i could wrestle it for a week and not find a sharp edge

but yes it does look like it's being treated well

any cam info yet?


-------------
72 GT Ute
   


Posted By: 72FordGTS
Date Posted: 18-January-2018 at 1:05PM
Haha thanks!  I noticed the flash too. I asked Tim if he's figured out the cam yet, and but he hasn't got back to me yet.  I might be look at getting one of his custom DuraSpark distributors with the HEI built in, but waiting to see if they are available yet.
 
On the transmission front, I think I have a line on a couple guys that can do the job for me.  Will have to talk to them and see what they charge.  Anyone have any recommendation on the a good rebuilt kit for a C6?  Something that would increase number of clutches would be nice.


-------------
Vince

1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car


Posted By: Rockatansky
Date Posted: 18-January-2018 at 3:25PM
probably best to talk to the builder regarding how he can/wants to get the extra clutches in and sourcing parts. my C6 has Kevlar 'Blue Plate Special' frictions and Kolene (nitrided for wear resistance) steels but i think the Red Alto clutches may be better? now i see they have a new friction material called Z-pac or something

from what i remember my builder guy said remove the 'wave' (a cushion spring in the clutch pack) and either change the pressure plate (thick steel plate that covers the end of the clutch pack) or machine it thinner for clearance to fit extra clutches. they can also machine a new snap ring groove in the shell for more room in the clutch pack

http://www.altousa.com/page/high_performance

click on Catalog here http://www.altousa.com/page/automotive and C6 starts on p222
scroll down and you'll various thickness specs for components and different types of materials available. all these dimensions come together and hopefully it works Wacko


-------------
72 GT Ute
   



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