Engine/Tranny removal
Printed From: The Ford Torino Page
Category: Model Specific Forum
Forum Name: 1972-1976 Ford and Mercury
Forum Description: Technical discussion for 1972-1976 Ford and Mercury
URL: https://forum.grantorinosport.org/forum_posts.asp?TID=18495
Printed Date: 23-April-2024 at 3:49AM
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.06 - https://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Engine/Tranny removal
Posted By: Rivercrest
Subject: Engine/Tranny removal
Date Posted: 11-December-2019 at 4:45PM
| Hi to all, I am planning on removing my engine and transmission as one piece. Just wondering if I will have to remove the tranny support cross member. I have already removed the front clip, rad, rad support etc. It's a clear path ahead so maybe I'll be able to avoid the removal of the cross member ? It's a 1974 Cougar 351C. Thanks in advance. |
Replies:
Posted By: californiajohnny
Date Posted: 11-December-2019 at 6:03PM
|
probably possible if you don't have to lift too much to clear the motor mounts and if you remove the tranny mount it may have enough room to slide out??? but it's easy to remove the crossmember  ------------- JOHN 74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE 74 VETTE CUSTOM 90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED 77 CELICA CUSTOM 75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED 79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED 75 VEGA V6 5 SPD 70 CHEV C10 P/U 68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION |
Posted By: Rivercrest
Date Posted: 12-December-2019 at 1:44AM
Thanks I appreciate the advice and experience of the experts 
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Posted By: handsofstone
Date Posted: 12-December-2019 at 11:23AM
| If you unbolt the rubber mount on the extension housing and motor mountsfrom the block, it should slide out. Double check that the fluid in the transmission is drained or get a plastic plug made for keeping the fluid in the transmission. Some heavy plastic bags and rubber bands will do in a pinch. The cooling lines for the transmission can be capped with some 3/8" hise and clamps. You might find you still need to remove the cross member anyway. It is only a couple of bolts. |
Posted By: legend onirot
Date Posted: 13-December-2019 at 1:33AM
|
We just removed the engine and tranny from my sons 73 torino. We had the front clip off as well. we removed the crossmember, its easier. we unbolted the transmission from the crossmember, (and the motor mounts) then put a jack stand under the transmission. once we were hooked up to the engine with the hoist, we put a jack under the tranny and lowered it down. easy peasy. (disclaimer:we had some issues getting the engine and transmission out, but it had to do with the massive headers that were on his car, not the crossmember) ------------- --------------------- malcolm 1973 gran torino sport (formal)... "Stacy Lynn" 1972 gran torino (formal)... "Mackenzie" 1973 gran torino sport (sportroof)... "Leela" |
Posted By: Billy C
Date Posted: 13-December-2019 at 2:07PM
|
As far as engine out procedures go, the torino setup is pretty simple. I think the 429/460 based setups are little trickier than the smaller 302s and 351s but it should all come out in one piece without removing any body panels or supports. disconnect battery drain coolant pull radiator and hoses clamp and disconnect fuel lines disconnect wiring harness disconnect throttle cable drain p/s fluid remove p/s pump remove alternator remove the fan and pulleys from the front jack the car up remove driveshaft with a pan under the yoke to catch all the fluid unbolt the exhaust loosen up headers (maybe only on the big block) disconnect the speedo cable disconnect the shifting linkage get everything situated to start pulling engine I think I usually unbolt the motor mounts and trans mount first, then the cross member and start lowering the trans down. I can't really remember but some how it just slides foreward a bit to clear the firewall, then up and out. I'm sure I'm missing some stuff but generally its pretty simple, just big and heavy. ------------- -Billy Conturo |
Posted By: Rivercrest
Date Posted: 13-December-2019 at 4:35PM
I am 1/2 way down the list, thanks Billy. I have also removed the tranny cross member just to be sure. carry on tomorrow 
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Posted By: Rivercrest
Date Posted: 13-December-2019 at 4:41PM
| Forgot to ask, how much tranny fluid can I expect to leak out when I pull the driveshaft out ? Thanks |
Posted By: Billy C
Date Posted: 13-December-2019 at 5:08PM
|
it feels like 100 gallons when it's spilling all over you but it's probably more like 1 or 2. ------------- -Billy Conturo |
Posted By: Rivercrest
Date Posted: 20-December-2019 at 4:04PM
| It's done , engine and tranny together. Fluid mess on the shop floor. LOL |
Posted By: Rivercrest
Date Posted: 01-January-2020 at 1:26PM
| Happy New Year to all. Today I unbolted the tranny from the engine, two pieces are now on separate stands. Next step will be to start trying to save the 351C motor, which runs but has a internal noise/squeal/rattle. I don't know the history of this 45 year old motor but my first observation is the cam shaft seal/cover that is right behind the flywheel is spray painted a primer brown and is relatively grease and dirt free. Considering this engine has been around for 45 years would this be a good indication that the cam shaft has been replaced not too very long ago ? Thanks for your expertise.......... |
Posted By: californiajohnny
Date Posted: 01-January-2020 at 3:51PM
|
well maybe, maybe not? but i say timing chain has been??? which would be good
------------- JOHN 74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE 74 VETTE CUSTOM 90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED 77 CELICA CUSTOM 75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED 79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED 75 VEGA V6 5 SPD 70 CHEV C10 P/U 68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION |
Posted By: unlovedford
Date Posted: 01-January-2020 at 4:18PM
|
When you replace the timing chain set, be sure to ask for a 1970 351 Cleveland set, to avoid any chance of the dreaded retarded timing sets that Ford started installing in later 400 engines and some Clevelands. You just never know when it comes to parts warehouses. ------------- Joe 1972 Mom's Squire Wagon 1972 Torino Wagon 1976 Torino 1968 Cougar XR7-First batch 1972 Torino 460 1989 BroncoII/Jeeps/Titanimous Popeye and Brutus (Rams) |
Posted By: Rivercrest
Date Posted: 01-January-2020 at 4:56PM
| I have the factory manuals but can anyone suggest a good site/parts book for the best information, because like Joe just said the parts counter is not always the best place to go.........'specially here in Canada. |
Posted By: torinomike650
Date Posted: 01-January-2020 at 5:37PM
|
You sure you don't want to buy my rebuilt 400 engine? 😉 ------------- Mike 1974 Ford Gran Torino |
Posted By: Rivercrest
Date Posted: 02-January-2020 at 3:47PM
| No, cause that would take away the fun of it..............LOL |
Posted By: Rivercrest
Date Posted: 05-January-2020 at 11:51AM
| So, in my quest to look for an engine noise issue, I now have separated the engine from the tranny...I have the engine, intact, sitting on an engine run stand. I've checked the compression, 125 lbs equal on all 8 cylinders. As a part of running the engine in the near future I have rigged up a fuel source. As a part of that I have removed the fuel pump, looking inside the block I am questioning the location of the timing chain, it almost seems to be in front of the fuel pump opening, I can see the fuel pump lobe but everything seems to be in such close quarters. The lobe is not directly in front of the opening like I would have expected. Opinions on this would be appreciated before I start removing the water pump and timing chain cover. |
Posted By: californiajohnny
Date Posted: 05-January-2020 at 11:56AM
|
the eccentric the pump runs on is usually bolted in front of the cam gear, so the pump would be in front of the chain...
------------- JOHN 74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE 74 VETTE CUSTOM 90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED 77 CELICA CUSTOM 75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED 79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED 75 VEGA V6 5 SPD 70 CHEV C10 P/U 68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION |
Posted By: Rockatansky
Date Posted: 05-January-2020 at 12:29PM
|
any offset in the shape of the fuel pump arm will direct you to where the eccentric is why not just let the fuel pump supply the gas from a can? and why are you going to remove the water pump & timing cover? ------------- 72 GT Ute |
Posted By: Rivercrest
Date Posted: 05-January-2020 at 2:08PM
| The valves on this engine were done by the previous owner, the workmanship lasted about 600 miles then an audible squeal developed. Owner shut the car off, towed it home and now the car is mine after sitting for about 10 years untouched. Truth is I don't want to disassemble the engine any further than needed but I am willing and somewhat able. LOL |
Posted By: handsofstone
Date Posted: 06-January-2020 at 3:04AM
|
A spun bearing may be the problem. If it is already out of the car, I would pull it apart. Otherwise, the questions will keep you awake at night when something else doesn't seem right. And prime the oiling system before you start it. Pull the plugs and look for rust etc. and rotate the crank manually, you may feel it hear something that is amiss.
|
Posted By: Rivercrest
Date Posted: 06-January-2020 at 6:41AM
| OK, thanks for everything so far. So here I am, I have a 1974 351C 4V engine with good compression on all 8 cylinders, engine runs but has a serious squeak. This engine I think has had a valve job done but may have been done poorly, even after tightening down the rockers I still get 2 push rods that are loose depending on how I rotate the crankshaft with a wrench. I also have a doner car with a 1976 351m/400 2V engine that runs well but has low compression on one cylinder ( squirt oil in the cylinder brings up the compression ). This is also a suspect engine for cracked water jacket condition. All the push rods are tight on this engine. So I need direction on if I can swap the heads from the 351m on to the 351c this would include the 4V carb, manifold and distributor. I am sure this question has been asked many times before and for that I apologize. |
Posted By: Rivercrest
Date Posted: 06-January-2020 at 6:42AM
| On the same note, the plugs seem fine in the 351C motor, no signs of any contamination. |
Posted By: Big Bird
Date Posted: 08-January-2020 at 12:58PM
|
If the rockers won't tighten, the studs may be coming out of the heads, the lifters may be shot, or the valves may be coming apart. Don't know about the 351C but with the squeal, and "recent" chain/gears/possible cam service i would suspect a spun cam bearing if this were a small-block Buick ------------- "What we do in full frontal view, is more honest than your cleaned-up mind." Randy 1979 T-Bird 2005 F-150 STX RCSB 4.6, 3.55 LSD How the Heck does a REGULAR CAB SHORTBED weigh over 5200 pounds? |
Posted By: 72FordGTS
Date Posted: 09-January-2020 at 8:58AM
Yes, the heads from a 351M will work on your 351C. If your 351C is a 2V engine, than you can use the intake from the 351C, the 351M intake is too wide. The distributors will swap between the engines too. Keep in mind that the 351M heads (D5 castings) have more restrictive exhaust ports, but if you are just looking to get the engine running they will work. ------------- Vince 1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car GTS.org Admin |
Rivercrest wrote:Posted By: handsofstone
Date Posted: 09-January-2020 at 3:32PM
| Be careful with distributors. I believe the windsors will fit but the gear is cut differently and will be eaten by the cam of a cleveland. Stay in 335 series to be safe. |
Posted By: Rivercrest
Date Posted: 14-January-2020 at 5:26AM
| I have now followed through with tightening down the rockers "properly" as per the shop manual. Just fired up the engine and it runs, push rods are firm, but the squeak is still there. UPDATE: I have dropped the oil pan looking for something obvious in the bottom end, as the squeaking sounded like a bottom end origin, at the moment I see no scoring or serious discoloration. Guess I am going to remove the carb, intake manifold and more over the next few days.......... |
Posted By: handsofstone
Date Posted: 14-January-2020 at 11:48AM
| Use a stethoscope and listen to the timing cover. Maybe the fuel pump eccentric is scraping the back on the cover. |
Posted By: handsofstone
Date Posted: 14-January-2020 at 11:49AM
| You might be able to see up into the timing chain area with the pan off. |
Posted By: handsofstone
Date Posted: 14-January-2020 at 11:51AM
| Have you tried running the engine without the fan belts on? That will isolate the engine from accessories. |
Posted By: Rivercrest
Date Posted: 14-January-2020 at 1:00PM
| Currently I only have a short belt running the water pump off the crank. All other items have been removed. I can see the eccentric and don't have the fuel pump installed. I am gravity feeding the carb from a lawn mower gas tank. All this to try and remove any and all suspects that could be causing the squeak. Too bad I can't access the cam shaft without further engine disassembly. I've run the engine for a limited amount of time, now I am going to pull the rocker covers and recheck the push rods and then "off with it's head" tomorrow.......... |
Posted By: californiajohnny
Date Posted: 14-January-2020 at 4:57PM
|
hmm, wonder if it's a small compression leak from the head gasket??? is it a continuous squeak? or a pulsing squeak?
------------- JOHN 74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE 74 VETTE CUSTOM 90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED 77 CELICA CUSTOM 75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED 79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED 75 VEGA V6 5 SPD 70 CHEV C10 P/U 68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION |
Posted By: Rivercrest
Date Posted: 20-January-2020 at 8:03AM
| I think it is typical of a bearing squeal. I've now pulled the carb, intake manifold and have visual access to the lifters. Next step will be to expose the timing chain and gears....maybe I can spin the cam shaft with the chain off ?? Anyone think it could be one of the cam shaft bearings ?? |
Posted By: handsofstone
Date Posted: 20-January-2020 at 11:07AM
| Did you run the engine without accessories? |
Posted By: handsofstone
Date Posted: 20-January-2020 at 11:14AM
| I would suspect a spun rod or crank bearing long before a cam bearing. The top end on these engines were fed more oil than necessary. There are fixes to get more oil to the crank available here somewhere. |
Posted By: Rivercrest
Date Posted: 20-January-2020 at 12:05PM
| with the oil pan off, I can't see anything obvious as I turn the crank shaft with a socket. I am running a short belt between the crank and the water pump only. |
Posted By: californiajohnny
Date Posted: 20-January-2020 at 12:22PM
|
how do the cylinder walls and piston skirts look from the bottom? i'm guessing maybe the cam keeper/thrust plate or pump eccentric... if you pull the lifters...DO NOT mix them up!!!! take an egg carton and lay them in the exact order ------------- JOHN 74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE 74 VETTE CUSTOM 90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED 77 CELICA CUSTOM 75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED 79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED 75 VEGA V6 5 SPD 70 CHEV C10 P/U 68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION |
Posted By: Rockatansky
Date Posted: 20-January-2020 at 1:49PM
|
did you start the engine with the 1 belt off before taking it apart? if it was internal engine it would've found a way to let you know what it is ------------- 72 GT Ute |
Posted By: Rivercrest
Date Posted: 20-January-2020 at 3:39PM
| Looking from underneath with the oil pan removed, everything "looks" good. The compression is pretty much 125 across the board. Does that tell me the valves are closing as needed ? As previously posted, the engine had a valve job done and then "K-POW" the engine started squealing 400 miles later........Cam bearing ? Don't even know if the cam and related parts were replaced or if they are the correct parts at this moment. Is replacing the cam shaft bearings as difficult as it looks in the repair manuals ? Looking to hear from someone who has done the same. |
Posted By: californiajohnny
Date Posted: 20-January-2020 at 7:12PM
|
you will need an exact sized driver to remove and install them looks like a seal driver with a long handle to hammer on to drive them in one at a time not real difficult but they must be lined up correctly for the oil holes as you drive them in! ------------- JOHN 74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE 74 VETTE CUSTOM 90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED 77 CELICA CUSTOM 75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED 79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED 75 VEGA V6 5 SPD 70 CHEV C10 P/U 68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION |
Posted By: handsofstone
Date Posted: 21-January-2020 at 1:37AM
|
You will see clear evidence of a spun bearing on whichever part of the cam it was locked onto. It may be "welded" to the cam in which case will be a bitch to remove. I would bet the bearing was installed incorrectly if one is the problem but maybe they were all off a little bit. Remove the crank and cam last so you can rotate the assembly manually. You will feel it hanging up or being real tight when you spin it by hand. Take pics as you go so we can look at what you are seeing.
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Posted By: Rivercrest
Date Posted: 22-January-2020 at 10:02AM
After removing the intake manifold and valley pan gasket I see a hole (s) in the casting of the block that "appear " to be above each intermediate bearing of the cam shaft. Would these be the oiling/lubrication holes ? Are the bearings supposed to be directly in line with these holes? If so, one of mine is not. 
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Posted By: handsofstone
Date Posted: 22-January-2020 at 10:29AM
| Oil return holes. They drain the top end oil back to the pan. |
Posted By: Rivercrest
Date Posted: 23-January-2020 at 9:18AM
| Oil holes, that makes sense. Today I have removed the pushrods being careful to keep track of what goes where... I have also removed the water pump etc to expose the timing chain and sprockets. Not knowing the history of this motor, how can I tell if the timing chain and sprockets are original. if they are would the gears have a FORD part number. (stamped ? ) The chain has the word "morse" stamped on a link and S-436 and M99 stamped on the camshaft sprocket. gonna check deflection tomorrow before I remove them. Planning on hand spinning the camshaft looking for that squeal tomorrow. |
Posted By: Coyote1
Date Posted: 23-January-2020 at 2:57PM
| I've had a bad distributer make a squeaking noise (the shaft bushings were wore and causing the shaft to wobble) |
Posted By: californiajohnny
Date Posted: 23-January-2020 at 4:29PM
|
idk if turning by hand will produce the squeal because rotation will be way slower than idling but any excessive play or tightness in a particular part of the rotation may indicate a problem there? morse and the # are a brand of chain and the size if original it should have a nylon upper gear ------------- JOHN 74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE 74 VETTE CUSTOM 90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED 77 CELICA CUSTOM 75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED 79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED 75 VEGA V6 5 SPD 70 CHEV C10 P/U 68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION |
Posted By: Rivercrest
Date Posted: 28-January-2020 at 10:47AM
| Another question, today I easily removed all the lifters out the top of each bore just using a round magnet. They all look brand new-ish. They may have been replaced by the previous owner. I kept them in order. Just before their removal I rotated the cam shaft (gear and chain removed) with just my fingers watching all lifters go up and down as hoped. No binding or difficulties to be found. I did notice the cam shaft moves front to back about a 1/4 inch with the timing sprocket off but the thrust plate and bolts on. Is this movement considered normal ? Thanks to all so far for your wisdom........... |
Posted By: torinomike650
Date Posted: 28-January-2020 at 11:07AM
you sure you don't want to buy a rebuilt 400 engine?  ------------- Mike 1974 Ford Gran Torino |
Posted By: californiajohnny
Date Posted: 28-January-2020 at 2:11PM
|
idk the cam sprocket may take up some of that slack? put just the sprocket back on snug and see if you still have a 1/4" movement? ------------- JOHN 74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE 74 VETTE CUSTOM 90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED 77 CELICA CUSTOM 75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED 79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED 75 VEGA V6 5 SPD 70 CHEV C10 P/U 68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION |
Posted By: Rockatansky
Date Posted: 28-January-2020 at 2:54PM
|
the cam sprocket and the retainer plate set the camshaft free play, remove the cam sprocket and the cam is able to move much farther than if the sprocket is in place. ------------- 72 GT Ute |
Posted By: Rivercrest
Date Posted: 28-January-2020 at 4:24PM
| Thanks for all that information.......Mike : Free shipping to Alaska ?? LOL |
Posted By: californiajohnny
Date Posted: 28-January-2020 at 5:48PM
|
free shipping? refunds? wtf people, this ain't amazon we're just all car guys like you ------------- JOHN 74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE 74 VETTE CUSTOM 90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED 77 CELICA CUSTOM 75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED 79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED 75 VEGA V6 5 SPD 70 CHEV C10 P/U 68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION |
Posted By: torinomike650
Date Posted: 30-January-2020 at 3:05AM
|
Depending if you pay my price or make me a compelling offer 😉 ------------- Mike 1974 Ford Gran Torino |
Posted By: torinomike650
Date Posted: 30-January-2020 at 3:07AM
|
@John lol Amazon shipping ain't actually "free", usually just means they won't have any sense of urgency whatsoever in getting it to you or they'll ship it back and forth between states like USPS and tell you that you put the wrong address 😜 ------------- Mike 1974 Ford Gran Torino |
Posted By: californiajohnny
Date Posted: 30-January-2020 at 3:21AM
yep more unskilled labor there too   ------------- JOHN 74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE 74 VETTE CUSTOM 90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED 77 CELICA CUSTOM 75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED 79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED 75 VEGA V6 5 SPD 70 CHEV C10 P/U 68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION |
Posted By: Rivercrest
Date Posted: 30-January-2020 at 11:53AM
| So today I found totally fried bearing inserts on cylinders # 4 & 8. I took a video but can't seem to be able to upload it, sorry. Can someone link me to the post about lubrication / modifications for the rear of these engines? I think I'll need it. LOL |
Posted By: Big Bird
Date Posted: 31-January-2020 at 7:48AM
|
First Mod is to remove the timing gears with the nylon teeth and throw them far, far, far away. Then clean out your oil pan pick-up, the oil pump and ALL the oil galleys/passages. Replace every bearing, and while you have the engine apart, pull out the factory valves and replace them with one-piece valves. Give the old valves to someone you really don't like. ------------- "What we do in full frontal view, is more honest than your cleaned-up mind." Randy 1979 T-Bird 2005 F-150 STX RCSB 4.6, 3.55 LSD How the Heck does a REGULAR CAB SHORTBED weigh over 5200 pounds? |
Posted By: Rivercrest
Date Posted: 31-January-2020 at 10:24AM
| Thanks for that info. |
Posted By: handsofstone
Date Posted: 31-January-2020 at 11:42AM
| Bubba's may be linked, otherwise I think Tim Meyer had pics and explanations of the process. At the very least, smaller diameter push rod holes will give more oil to the crank. I suspect you are gonna be doing the whole thing over. |
Posted By: handsofstone
Date Posted: 31-January-2020 at 11:47AM
| You can post pics taken from your videos using screen shots. Not perfect but at least we can see what you are talking about. I can picture it in my mind and see engines from my past. Lol |
Posted By: californiajohnny
Date Posted: 31-January-2020 at 1:33PM
|
check the crank journal and the block and rods if the bearing spun you'll need a replacement crank or have yours turned, rods will need ground and rebored if the block had a main spin it will need the caps ground and the block line bored... ------------- JOHN 74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE 74 VETTE CUSTOM 90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED 77 CELICA CUSTOM 75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED 79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED 75 VEGA V6 5 SPD 70 CHEV C10 P/U 68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION |
Posted By: Rivercrest
Date Posted: 31-January-2020 at 3:52PM
| So now what to....I have this 351C engine that will need a probable overhaul and I also have a 351m/400 doner engine that also will need new pistons and more. So I am taking votes on which engine I should rebuild........... |
Posted By: handsofstone
Date Posted: 31-January-2020 at 3:57PM
| Go through the 351 and compare which will be better suited for the budget. Personally, if given a choice, I would be doing the 351. |
Posted By: Rockatansky
Date Posted: 31-January-2020 at 4:31PM
|
your 2 engines don't directly interchange, different transmission bell bolt patterns ------------- 72 GT Ute |
Posted By: Rons73
Date Posted: 31-January-2020 at 4:41PM
| Like Rock says, if you swap to the M series you will have to change the transmission. So for simplicity sake I would build the Cleveland. Is this a 4V engine or a 2V with a 4bbl intake? |
Posted By: Rivercrest
Date Posted: 01-February-2020 at 3:00AM
| The Cleveland engine is the original from the car, it comes with a matching C4 tranny. The M series motor is out of an identical car and I have the matching C6 tranny to go with it. Either choice will result in the rebuilding of the matching transmission as a part of the complete drive train rebuilding process. The Cleveland is a 4V while the 351m is a 2V. All things being considered, is one engine "stronger" than the other. I also need to consider the block cracking issue with the 351M as it's date code falls within the years that that was an issue, the 351M is a 1976 motor casting but I have yet to inspect it for cracks in the water jacket area. Lets continue with the voting. LOL |
Posted By: Rivercrest
Date Posted: 01-February-2020 at 3:05AM
 This is the project car.
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Posted By: handsofstone
Date Posted: 01-February-2020 at 3:20AM
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The 351 has better heads assuming it was that way from the factory. The C4 will use less power than the C6 from what I have been told. My first q code had a C6 and I was 16 when I got the car and it was only a concern when buying gaskets. If they both need refreshing, go with the original. Less headaches.
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Posted By: Rockatansky
Date Posted: 01-February-2020 at 4:38AM
^^^^ this just a transmission swap alone can bring up several problems, do you have the driveshaft from the C6 car? does the C6 have the correct shift linkage arm? and does the linkage mount exactly the same as the linkage in the C4 car? floor vs column shift are different, 'same' parts for different transmissions are different, shift cable attachment styles and locations are different. TQ converter, dipstick tube, flexplate, engine block plate, cooler lines, modulator vac line, neutral safety switch* ... they all are or may be* different that's just the transmission. the engine mounts are not a big deal, i forget if the fan shrouds are the same or different? the exhaust pipes off the manifolds may or may not fit properly or at all because the 351C is shorter and narrower than the 351M/400. 2V and 4V exhaust manifolds are different too. intake manifolds are also different so no swapping over there. the only way i'd consider doing the swap is after thoroughly considering all these points, and if the 351M/400 is indeed a 400, or changing the crank to make it a 400 otherwise you're just swapping a 351 Cleveland for a 351 boat anchor ------------- 72 GT Ute |
Posted By: californiajohnny
Date Posted: 01-February-2020 at 4:46AM
|
that car being that nice must be a 74 as that was the last year of the cleveland, i think id do the original , do it up right and put it back in and have a good solid clean reliable car ------------- JOHN 74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE 74 VETTE CUSTOM 90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED 77 CELICA CUSTOM 75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED 79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED 75 VEGA V6 5 SPD 70 CHEV C10 P/U 68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION |
Posted By: torinomike650
Date Posted: 01-February-2020 at 6:18AM
|
I vote - buy a rebuilt 400 from an unnamed member of the forum that has the correct block casting that is not known to crack and comes with a 2 to 4 barrel Edelbrock conversion manifold and 4 barrel EGR spacer 😁😁😆😆 ------------- Mike 1974 Ford Gran Torino |
Posted By: californiajohnny
Date Posted: 01-February-2020 at 8:43AM
|
not sure what you have for good knowledgeable machine shops in the area? and the cost??? mike's option may be a cost effective option? ------------- JOHN 74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE 74 VETTE CUSTOM 90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED 77 CELICA CUSTOM 75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED 79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED 75 VEGA V6 5 SPD 70 CHEV C10 P/U 68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION |
Posted By: Rivercrest
Date Posted: 01-February-2020 at 9:01AM
I love Mike's option, except I live 3000 miles north of him and I only have a CANADIAN bank account...........LOL. Maybe he'll take $1,000.00  Canadian funds and I'll meet him at the "Trump" boarder wall...........
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Posted By: Rivercrest
Date Posted: 01-February-2020 at 9:04AM
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I have 4 qualified engine rebuild shops within 10 miles of my place....LOL It's hard to pick the right shop to deal with as everyone claims to be the best in town.
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Posted By: handsofstone
Date Posted: 01-February-2020 at 9:40AM
| First World problems. Haha |
Posted By: 72FordGTS
Date Posted: 01-February-2020 at 9:52AM
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As much as I like 400s, I agree with the majority, it's far easier to stick with the original 351C. Do you know if your other engine is a 351M or a 400? If it's a 351M it's definitely not worthwhile unless you had a 400 (or 434 stroker) crank to go with it. Is your Cougar a 351-4V car originally? You'd definitely want to keep that engine then since they are pretty rare in a '74. Didn't this engine have some work done to it before you bought it? Maybe it won't need much to get it repaired. ------------- Vince 1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car GTS.org Admin |
Posted By: Rivercrest
Date Posted: 01-February-2020 at 12:15PM
| Previous owner told me he had work done that only lasted 400 miles. Thought he said he had the valves done but I doubt it. Today I pulled off the heads and the valves are original ford and "carbon" black along with the tops of the pistons, but the timing chain/gears are not original. I do believe the motor is original and has never left it's motor mounts since 1974. I will work with this 351-4V and keep this car original. Thing is there is no point in doing a rebuild 1/2 way. This will be all or nothing for this motor, once I find the right person to replace parts as required, using upgraded after market parts and not OEM items that could be prone to future failure. Only want to do this once. |
Posted By: Rivercrest
Date Posted: 01-February-2020 at 12:32PM
  More than 400 miles on these parts
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Posted By: handsofstone
Date Posted: 01-February-2020 at 2:26PM
| 40k it looks like. |
Posted By: handsofstone
Date Posted: 01-February-2020 at 2:29PM
| Might have done a valve job and knurled the seats. Are the valve seals in one piece or crumbled up? I am skeptical about the mounts being original. I know mine were toast when my first car was 9 years old. |
Posted By: handsofstone
Date Posted: 01-February-2020 at 2:30PM
| Is there much of a ridge at the top of the bores? |
Posted By: Rivercrest
Date Posted: 01-February-2020 at 2:48PM
| Yes, I can feel the ridge at the top. |
Posted By: Rivercrest
Date Posted: 01-February-2020 at 2:52PM
| Next step will be to remove the Crank and Pistons out the bottom...at the moment I am having an argument with the flywheel, bolts won't loosen even with a 2 foot Johnson bar. Please don't tell me they are left hand threaded. LOL |
Posted By: Rivercrest
Date Posted: 01-February-2020 at 2:57PM
| Also worth mentioning the gaskets on both sides of the heads are old and discolored..further adding to my theory the valves were never removed but the seals look some what OK. |
Posted By: 72FordGTS
Date Posted: 01-February-2020 at 3:08PM
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That motor looks like it hasn't been touched in a long time. Try an impact gun on the flywheel bolts. Even an good electric one might work if you don't have air. So it sounds like you are going to rebuild it? What are your plans? Stock or warm it over? ------------- Vince 1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car GTS.org Admin |
Posted By: Rivercrest
Date Posted: 01-February-2020 at 3:12PM
| Gonna clean up the block / heads and decide the course of action from there. It won't be a race engine, just happy to drive to car shows on weekends. |
Posted By: Rockatansky
Date Posted: 01-February-2020 at 3:12PM
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to remove the fly bolts stuff a cylinder full of rags and put the head back on to lock up the engine they shouldn't be more than 80lb-ft tight IIRC ------------- 72 GT Ute |
Posted By: Rivercrest
Date Posted: 01-February-2020 at 3:42PM
| Good Idea, Thanks |
Posted By: handsofstone
Date Posted: 01-February-2020 at 4:04PM
| The pistons come out up top after you remove the ridge. They will come out through the bottom in pieces. Get a ridge reamer at parts store, they loan them for free or rent for short money. Don't smash it up on disassembly. |
Posted By: handsofstone
Date Posted: 01-February-2020 at 4:06PM
| Bag and tag everything. |
Posted By: californiajohnny
Date Posted: 01-February-2020 at 4:06PM
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hard to see in the pic but i'm not seeing the china wall, and those huge ports it looks like 351 4v to me? i don't think the pistons will come out the bottom, use a lathe type ridge reamer to remove the ridge! probably can rent one for cheap from a parts store not left hand threads... impact should do the trick. i took an old sbc valve and heated it up with the torch and bent the stem 90* close to the head you stick it in a dowel hole and place the edge of the valve in a flywheel tooth to hold the crank from turning works slick! but normally i just grab the impact. the rag thing sounds legit ------------- JOHN 74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE 74 VETTE CUSTOM 90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED 77 CELICA CUSTOM 75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED 79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED 75 VEGA V6 5 SPD 70 CHEV C10 P/U 68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION |
Posted By: handsofstone
Date Posted: 01-February-2020 at 4:20PM
| There is a spring loaded flywheel turning tool we used for rotating it to remove the torque converter bolts on gm flywheels. It will definitely hold the things in place so you can apply the leverage to remove the bolts. Cheaper than an impact gun if you don't already have one. |
Posted By: Big Bird
Date Posted: 02-February-2020 at 3:05AM
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That 400 miles ago work was probably replacing the timing chain and gears. If bits of the original nylon gears got thru the screen at the oil pump pickup, they will be in the oil galleys, which is the likely cause of oil starved bearings. Every passage needs to be cleaned out. No short cuts. ------------- "What we do in full frontal view, is more honest than your cleaned-up mind." Randy 1979 T-Bird 2005 F-150 STX RCSB 4.6, 3.55 LSD How the Heck does a REGULAR CAB SHORTBED weigh over 5200 pounds? |
Posted By: handsofstone
Date Posted: 02-February-2020 at 3:24AM
| The plastic gear junk will be in the oil filter not the galleys. |
Posted By: californiajohnny
Date Posted: 02-February-2020 at 5:58AM
more than likely they clogged the pick up screen and that caused the starvation that's what happened on my blazer's original engine to the prior owner someone before him replaced the chain but didn't clean out the pan ------------- JOHN 74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE 74 VETTE CUSTOM 90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED 77 CELICA CUSTOM 75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED 79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED 75 VEGA V6 5 SPD 70 CHEV C10 P/U 68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION |
Posted By: 72FordGTS
Date Posted: 02-February-2020 at 6:26AM
If you are keeping it stock, it might be worth while to bump the compression a bit with some new pistons, especially if you plan to bore it .030 over. These motors were pretty low compression from the factory. Are you planning to replace the cam or reuse? I am sure Rockatansky can chime in a few easy cheap modifications. Those D3 4V castings with the smaller valves are good heads. If your car is a factory 351C-4V car, you should consider getting a Marti report. You should have a "Q" in at the 5th digit if it was a factory 351-4V car. Here is a VIN decoder: http://grantorinosport.org/74torino06.htm" rel="nofollow - http://grantorinosport.org/74torino06.htm Marti Report info is below. it will give you the history on your car and the number produced like it. https://www.martiauto.com/martireports.cfm" rel="nofollow - https://www.martiauto.com/martireports.cfm ------------- Vince 1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car GTS.org Admin |
Posted By: Rons73
Date Posted: 02-February-2020 at 7:46AM
| The C4 is lighter, and less things to change on the car if you stay stock configuration. I think sticking with the Cleveland is the way to go. If the crank and rods are damaged, I vote stroker upgrade. Looks stock externally, but better torque for cruising. |
Posted By: Rockatansky
Date Posted: 02-February-2020 at 9:02AM
in a perfect world. unfortunately some debris always gets through the pick-up screen and the filter bypass. the M code and 2V oil screen has a metal strap across the screen, covering a hole through the screen beneath the strap. when the exposed screen clogs the screen gets sucked upwards lifting away from the metal strap and anything close by gets sucked in through the hole in the screen.  the Q code / performance oil pick-up does not have the 'let the crap in' screen bypass feature  debris can also find it's way into bearings by splash / windage, oil getting flung around inside the engine. was there any crumbled valve stem oil seal material clogging the oil returns in the heads?
------------- 72 GT Ute |
Posted By: Rivercrest
Date Posted: 02-February-2020 at 3:55PM
| Thanks to everyone for the recent information, yes the oil pump screen is clean with no debris front the plastic gear. Sending the block out for cleaning next week, I ordered a VIN report (thanks for that source). Gonna do a complete rebuild, will keep everyone posted in the weeks to come. Yes it's a Q motor in the VIN number.....351C 4V original engine. |
Posted By: Rivercrest
Date Posted: 02-February-2020 at 3:59PM
| Also, was able to get the flywheel off using the rag in the piston, what a great method.....thanks again. |