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    Posted: 18-April-2016 at 8:29AM
I am just in the process of installing my newly modified Saginaw steering box.  I sent it away to have a larger T-Bar and they switched it to using the more modern style spool valve which has the smaller splined input shaft.  I have the new coupler with the steering box to adapt to the new parts. 
On my old coupler I had to use longer bolts to connect it to the OEM Torino steering shaft u-joint.  Because of this I had to shim the holes so that the bolts would fit tight in the rubber biscuit, otherwise there was slop.  I did this with nylon bushings (see photo below).  I thought I could reuse these bushings but the new coupler has smaller holes so those nylon bushings are too big.
 
 
 
I basically need a bushing that will make a 3/8" bolt 7/16" for the portion that passes through the rubber biscuit so that there is no slop.
 
I found these on Amazon and they are the exact size I need.  Any issues with using these?
 
 
 
This is what the assembled unit should look like when I am done (this was with the old coupler before I had the Steering box modified).  The hole in the steel portion is 3/8", while the rubber biscuit has a 7/16" hole which leaves slop when I use a 3/8" bolt.  Normally couplers use a special bolt, but they are too short to work with the Torino setup.
 
 
 
 
 
Vince

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote unlovedford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-April-2016 at 9:25AM
I have a question on these rag joints:

Since a Saginaw box was an option on these cars, and the Jeep XJ and ZJ versions use a Saginaw box with a similar splined input shaft, could the universal joint and column slip-joint off the Jeep be adapted to our cars to eliminate the troublesome rag joint? It is a slip-yoke design and has zero slop or give - which makes it far more safe and responsive. I was cleaning in my garage and came across a couple.
Joe
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-April-2016 at 10:16AM
Joe,
 I believe the input shaft diameters are different, the Jeeps have 3/4" and the Torino/Ranchero's have 13/16", not sure of the spline counts differences.
www.supermotors.net/22468
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-April-2016 at 1:30PM
Originally posted by unlovedford unlovedford wrote:

I have a question on these rag joints:

Since a Saginaw box was an option on these cars, and the Jeep XJ and ZJ versions use a Saginaw box with a similar splined input shaft, could the universal joint and column slip-joint off the Jeep be adapted to our cars to eliminate the troublesome rag joint? It is a slip-yoke design and has zero slop or give - which makes it far more safe and responsive. I was cleaning in my garage and came across a couple.
 
It might work, I'd have to see the Jeep part.  My Saginaw steering box original had the 13/16 36 spline input shaft as it was basically a 1971 Mustang fast ratio box.  I just had it modded for more steering feel and that update put the smaller input shaft, 3/4" 30 spline input.  Most of the 1978 and newer boxes used the 3/4-30 spline input shaft.  I can use this as I have a new coupler to work with it, and so the Jeep part may be able to make it work.
 
Here is some info I found on Saginaw boxes:
 
63-67 Corvette is 3/4-30
68-83 Corvette is 3/4-36
58-64 Chevys are 3/4-36
77-older series 800 boxes are 13/16-36
78-newer series 800 boxes are 3/4-30
 
The Ford sourced Saginaw boxes from the factory would have originally used the 13/16-36 spline.   Jeep would likely use 3/4-30.
 
 
Vince

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-April-2016 at 1:56PM
Originally posted by 72FordGTS 72FordGTS wrote:

Originally posted by unlovedford unlovedford wrote:

I have a question on these rag joints:

Since a Saginaw box was an option on these cars, and the Jeep XJ and ZJ versions use a Saginaw box with a similar splined input shaft, could the universal joint and column slip-joint off the Jeep be adapted to our cars to eliminate the troublesome rag joint? It is a slip-yoke design and has zero slop or give - which makes it far more safe and responsive. I was cleaning in my garage and came across a couple.
 
It might work, I'd have to see the Jeep part.  My Saginaw steering box original had the 13/16 36 spline input shaft as it was basically a 1971 Mustang fast ratio box.  I just had it modded for more steering feel and that update put the smaller input shaft, 3/4" 30 spline input.  Most of the 1978 and newer boxes used the 3/4-30 spline input shaft.  I can use this as I have a new coupler to work with it, and so the Jeep part may be able to make it work.
 
Here is some info I found on Saginaw boxes:
 
63-67 Corvette is 3/4-30
68-83 Corvette is 3/4-36
58-64 Chevys are 3/4-36
77-older series 800 boxes are 13/16-36
78-newer series 800 boxes are 3/4-30
 
The Ford sourced Saginaw boxes from the factory would have originally used the 13/16-36 spline.   Jeep would likely use 3/4-30.
 
 
Sounds like they directly swapped the internals from a JGC box into your Mustang box since the input rotary assembly was changed to 3/4" splined shaft. When I did my JGC internals swap I kept the original Ranchero input rotary assembly to re-use my rag joint/steering coupler. The original SPA-T box (Mach 1 Mustang box) is a variable ratio box, meaning at near center the steering ratio is less aggressive(less twitchy) but as it travels from near center it becomes more aggressive (lower ratio numbers). The JGC box is a "straight" 12.7 to 1 ratio and it has the same output turning degree(about 87 degrees) as the MACH 1 or original Torino output. I would say the Jeep input slip joint has a very good chance of working on your application.
www.supermotors.net/22468
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-April-2016 at 2:26PM
Originally posted by aquartlow aquartlow wrote:


Sounds like they directly swapped the internals from a JGC box into your Mustang box since the input rotary assembly was changed to 3/4" splined shaft. When I did my JGC internals swap I kept the original Ranchero input rotary assembly to re-use my rag joint/steering coupler. The original SPA-T box (Mach 1 Mustang box) is a variable ratio box, meaning at near center the steering ratio is less aggressive(less twitchy) but as it travels from near center it becomes more aggressive (lower ratio numbers). The JGC box is a "straight" 12.7 to 1 ratio and it has the same output turning degree(about 87 degrees) as the MACH 1 or original Torino output. I would say the Jeep input slip joint has a very good chance of working on your application.
My steering box was a bit of a custom build.  They started with a 1971 Mustang box originally,but I had them put in the 12.7:1 guts (I should have specified that earlier).  I am not sure what the number of degrees the box turns but it's enough to hit the steering stops.  I found the steering ratio speed was good, but it was too boosted and not enough road feel for my liking.  So that's why I had it recalibrated this winter.  I am not sure what they used for parts, but these guys specialize in Saginaw steering boxes so I am sure they had tons of off the shelf parts to use.  I sent them the specs for the T-bar on a Monte Carlo SS or an Iroc Camaro  (I can't remember which now), as they supposedly had the most steering feel of all the Saginaw quick ratio boxes.  Anyway, they changed the parts to supposedly match those hi-po 80's cars and they said it should have much more road feel now.
 
Any opinion Todd on whether bronze bushings will work?  The nylon ones held up fine in my old rag joint and I would think bronze should work okay then?  I just want to get the steering box back in so I can drive the car now that the decent weather is FINALLY here.
 


Edited by 72FordGTS - 18-April-2016 at 2:28PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-April-2016 at 2:42PM
Vince,
  I would believe the bronze bushings would work just fine(and never wear out or deform)! Once installed there is almost no movement where the bolts are, that happens between the bolts/pins.
 Sounds like they increased the T-bar, which subtly requires an increase in the driver's steering input. Get'er done and drive it! Hey, Florida is really nice right now, that would be a nice road trip Wink.    

Edited by aquartlow - 18-April-2016 at 3:38PM
www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-April-2016 at 5:36PM
yeah, i think the bronze bushings would be fine just don't crank the bolt down super super tight or it could deform or crack the bushing , at which point you'd be squashing the rubber to much anyway, you know what i mean.

BTW it was 96 degrees here today Big smile


Edited by californiajohnny - 18-April-2016 at 5:38PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote unlovedford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-April-2016 at 1:30AM
I'll post a picture of the slip joint if I can get home early enough. With as many columns and steering boxes as I have perched on shelves, I may try to figure something out. However, with steering, there is zero room for error.
Joe
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-April-2016 at 4:34AM
Originally posted by californiajohnny californiajohnny wrote:



BTW it was 96 degrees here today Big smile
 
96, ALREADY, in Washington !?!?! It was 58 this morning with a high today of 84 here in N. central Fl.  Love bugs about to get bad though, so my cruising gets limited to night time. Not looking forward to the mid to upper 90's with 100% humidity here in Fl.
www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-April-2016 at 2:49PM
Thanks for the help guys.  I got the bushings on order....hopefully have the car on the road next week.
Vince

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote russosborne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-April-2016 at 10:40AM
Vince,
Did you happen to take a picture similar to the one above of the assembled unit with the new coupler?
I finally dug my new Lares coupler out and it looks a lot different, and I was wondering if yours looks the same as mine and how it looks installed.
Mine is a Lares 203 btw. I am using the Lares 841 box. So your coupler may be different.
Thanks,
Russ
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-April-2016 at 1:10AM
Russ my setup is a little different as I have a Saginaw steering box I posted a response in your other thread.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-April-2016 at 3:16PM
I got the bushings in today, but I have another issue.  The steering shaft seems to short to couple with the steering box.  I am not sure if the new smaller spline input shaft is a different length from the previous input shaft, but I can't get the two to work together where the pinch bolts on each end reach their slots.
I was thinking of trying to use some washer to space it out similar to this picture below.  Does anyone see an issue with doing this?  I am using grade 8 bolts and probably would need three washer. 
 
Any other ideas?
 
 
 
I'd have to out the washers here in my coupler (the red circle) to add some length:
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by 72FordGTS - 27-April-2016 at 3:20PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-April-2016 at 11:48PM
Vince,
 How far "off" is it? I think the extra washers won't be an issue, but you can lengthen the steering column shaft a bit. The external shaft(the one that attaches the intermediate shaft) is collapsible so in an accident it does not become a spear or something thereof so not only is there movement upward there is also a bit of movement downward. I found this out many years ago working on my first car, a '75 Mercury Cougar. I was also replacing the jag joint and during the procedure(I must have been thrashing on it Embarrassed) the shaft receded into the upper part of the column. I just took a pair of vice grips and attached them to the lower shaft about an inch or so above where the intermediate shaft couple would attach/sit, I used a hammer on the vice grips to slide the steering shaft lower(closer to steering box) until the intermediate shaft couplers would go onto bothe the steering shaft and the steering box. I drove the Cougar everywhere for 5-6 years without any issues until I sold it. Hope this helps. Good luck.

Edited by aquartlow - 27-April-2016 at 11:49PM
www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Bird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-April-2016 at 10:45AM
At the risk of sounding stupid...
(Something I EXCEL at anyway)
The new lares rag doesn't look right.
In the original installation, the intermediate shaft flange is bolted to the rag joint.
The steering  column is bolted thru the rag joint 90 degrees rotated.
in your pic, the intermediate is bolted thru the rag joint and to the column flange.
No 90 degree offset.
The posts/pins on the factory rag joint engage the safety collar/deadman flange.
this doesn't look to be the same with the new Lares part...
or am I overthinking and reading too much into the pictures???
The above post should be read in a "Grumpy Old Man" voice.
Almost forgot: "Get off my lawn!!!"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-April-2016 at 1:17PM
no i think it's right, it just looks that way in the pics^^^
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-April-2016 at 2:44PM
Originally posted by aquartlow aquartlow wrote:

Vince,
 How far "off" is it? I think the extra washers won't be an issue, but you can lengthen the steering column shaft a bit. The external shaft(the one that attaches the intermediate shaft) is collapsible so in an accident it does not become a spear or something thereof so not only is there movement upward there is also a bit of movement downward. I found this out many years ago working on my first car, a '75 Mercury Cougar. I was also replacing the jag joint and during the procedure(I must have been thrashing on it Embarrassed) the shaft receded into the upper part of the column. I just took a pair of vice grips and attached them to the lower shaft about an inch or so above where the intermediate shaft couple would attach/sit, I used a hammer on the vice grips to slide the steering shaft lower(closer to steering box) until the intermediate shaft couplers would go onto bothe the steering shaft and the steering box. I drove the Cougar everywhere for 5-6 years without any issues until I sold it. Hope this helps. Good luck.
 
Thanks for the advice Todd.  I tried to lengthen the shaft like you described but it didn't work.  I think part of my problem is when I looked over my old photos of the install of my Saginaw steering box install, it looks like I may not have properly seated the intermediate shaft thus making it artificially longer.  I ended up using washers as a spacer, but I ended up using more than I though.  It seems just as strong as the setup without washers.  I also abandoned the bronze bushings.  They were too soft and deformed when I tighten the bolts.  I was able to find some nylon spacers that worked like I had used previously.  In any case the car steering is back together and seems to be working okay so far.  Should have the car on the road in the next day or two if time allows.
Originally posted by Big Bird Big Bird wrote:

At the risk of sounding stupid...
(Something I EXCEL at anyway)
The new lares rag doesn't look right.
In the original installation, the intermediate shaft flange is bolted to the rag joint.
The steering  column is bolted thru the rag joint 90 degrees rotated.
in your pic, the intermediate is bolted thru the rag joint and to the column flange.
No 90 degree offset.
The posts/pins on the factory rag joint engage the safety collar/deadman flange.
this doesn't look to be the same with the new Lares part...
or am I overthinking and reading too much into the pictures???
 
Randy
 
I had to modify the original intermediate shaft as I had a Ford steering box and installed a Saginaw box.  Originally the rubber disc was riveted to the intermediate shaft and the safety bracket and the coupler were bolted.  My new setup uses a different coupler.  I had to drill out the original rivets then bolted the new coupled to the intermediate shaft.  The new coupler has rivets installed where the bolts were on the original, so I didn't install the safety bracket again.  I could have drilled these out, but quite frankly I think the setup I have is fine.   I am not sure what the factory setup was for Ford cars using Saginaw boxes, but this setup works well for me.
 
here is a pic of an unmodified intermediate shaft (couple not shown but bolts onto the two bolts):
 
 
 


Edited by 72FordGTS - 28-April-2016 at 2:47PM
Vince

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