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Rag joint replacement

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n2fordwagons View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote n2fordwagons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Rag joint replacement
    Posted: 11-July-2014 at 8:01AM
Hey guys,
 
I need to replace my rag joint, something I've never done before.  Any suggestions on how to tackle this?  The shop manual gives a brief list, but it's not helpful to a novice like me.  Should I go at it from the outside of the car, from the top or bottom?  I noticed the head on the bolt that comes out the side of the joint looks to have a special head on it, not your typical hex head.  I'm assuming I'll need a special socket or wrench for that?  Or, am I looking at the wrong bolt?
 
Also, keep in mind I have a 460, so room may be somewhat limited compared to a 351M or 400.  I'm assuming the 460 takes up more room.
 
Or, a local shop has quoted me 1 1/2 hours of labor ($130).  There's no telling how long this job will take me.  Maybe I'd be better off letting them do it??  But, I could sure use that $130 for something else.
 
Any input would be greatly appreciated.
Jeff

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mcford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-July-2014 at 9:14AM
pull the stub shaft an do it on the workbench.  undo bolt/nut at gear box.  undo boot at firewall inside the car and then undo bolt inside car where shaft connects to steering column. then you can remove the shaft with the rag joint and replace the piece while at the workbench.
Mike
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote n2fordwagons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-July-2014 at 10:02AM
Originally posted by mcford mcford wrote:

pull the stub shaft an do it on the workbench.  undo bolt/nut at gear box.  undo boot at firewall inside the car and then undo bolt inside car where shaft connects to steering column. then you can remove the shaft with the rag joint and replace the piece while at the workbench.
 
Cool.  So I'm on the right track.  I've removed the bolt at the gear box using a 7/16" 12-star socket.  And I've removed the nut inside the car using a 9/16" socket, and pushed the bolt through (it doesn't come all the way out).  I used a crow bar to pry up on the shaft / rag joint, but can't seem to get it to clear the gear.  How do I get this bad boy all the way out?
Jeff

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Regul8r Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-July-2014 at 1:13PM
yeah it was a pain in the ass for me on Lola!
I pulled the whole column because I also pulled the dash.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Billy C Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-July-2014 at 5:30PM
Just took a column apart today. I am trying to picture what you are talking about with it on the car though. The joint is only about an inch onto the actual steering column shaft. Should be able to make it around the gear box by tipping the mini u-joint out of the way after it's disconnected.  As far as the bolt that won't come out all the way, that is normal. It is set in there from the factory with a tiny lock pin. The bolt has a flat it so it doesn't need to be removed. On the one I was working on today, the "clamp joint" part needed some convincing with a chisel and hammer from the back side.
-Billy Conturo
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-July-2014 at 5:54PM
least amount of work may be to remove the bolts holding the steering box to the frame, leave the pitman arm and joints connected, just slide the box forward a little to get the shaft out, so you can remove the rag joint from the shaft on the bench as stated
JOHN
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote n2fordwagons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-July-2014 at 8:24AM
Thanks guys.  I appreciate the input.  I followed John's advice and dropped the steering box by removing the 3 bolts holding it to the frame.  Still having problems though.  How do you remove the bottom section of steering shaft (I think the shop manual calls it the U Joint) from the rest of the steering shaft?  The nut is off, the bolt is just hanging there.  I've pried on it with a crow bar.  I'm afraid I'm going to break something, if I don't do it correctly.
Jeff

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-July-2014 at 8:48AM
that bolt has notches in it, and there is a notch in the upper column shaft, try sliding the bolt in and out a little at a time to find the sweet spot, if that don't work turn the bolt 180 degrees and try finding the spot again, i had a hell of a time getting mine off this last time, i ended up driving that bolt completely out. my column's out and apart i can post a pic of the bolt or shaft or column if you need
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote n2fordwagons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-July-2014 at 1:14PM
Ok.  So, I got the lower shaft out today.  Now, on to my next dilemma.  If I use Lares 202 steering coupler, it looks like I'm gonna lose the safety bracket.  I think I saw it described as the "deadman bracket" in another post.  I'm not sure how I feel about that.  Also, the bolts that came with Lares 202 will be too short.  Is there another part available out there, that would have the safety bracket included?
 
Here are some pics.
 
 
Jeff

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-July-2014 at 1:41PM
can you get longer bolts?
JOHN
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bmf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-July-2014 at 1:43PM
"I am completely broke and have the ability to sustain that"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bmf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-July-2014 at 1:47PM
Don't know why I can't put text with my pictures, but this is what I came up with.
"I am completely broke and have the ability to sustain that"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote n2fordwagons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-July-2014 at 2:06PM
Originally posted by californiajohnny californiajohnny wrote:

can you get longer bolts?
 
Sure, but I doubt I could find some with the shoulder on them.  Maybe add some nylon bushings?
But, that still leaves me without the safety bracket.  Maybe not a big deal on a car that's not driven much?  What does everyone else use?
 
Originally posted by bmf bmf wrote:

Don't know why I can't put text with my pictures, but this is what I came up with.
 
Looks great.  Does that bracket on the bottom side act as a safety bracket?  Where did you get that part (manufacturer and part #)?
 
 
Jeff

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-July-2014 at 2:45PM
right, i see the shoulder, i didn't want to throw out a whole run down on bolts and make it sound confusing. what about your original bolts in the pic? are they the wrong size or too short too? with regular grade #8 longer bolts, what about an extra sway bar sleeve(cut to the proper length for a shoulder/spacer ) if it is the right id and od


Edited by californiajohnny - 14-July-2014 at 6:18PM
JOHN
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-July-2014 at 3:09PM
I used longer grade 8 bolts when I did mine.  I used nylon bushings as the spacer.  It worked out well, no issues.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bmf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-July-2014 at 3:52PM
The rag joint is Lares Ford to Saginaw and it was ordered with a
quick ratio Saginaw box.  Sorry, its been too long ago for numbers.  The provided bolts were long enough.  I like shiny and I had the buttonheads in stainless.
The "dead man" bracket would need the holes elongated a small amount and it could then be tac welded to the studs to give a lot less play if the rag joint failed.
Looking at the post by 72FordGTS made me think that some polly bushings (shock absorber?)would lessen the slack also.
I looked at the original bolts and they had a short spacer on the threads.  Probably press fit.
 
"I am completely broke and have the ability to sustain that"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72RogerGT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-July-2014 at 7:00AM
I went and bought a spacer sleeve and 8 grade bolts. Had to cut the spacer in two in order to fit a piece into each hole and it was tight on the bolt, leaving no play.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bmf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-July-2014 at 11:08AM
I looked at the bottom brscket again and it will limit wheel play if the rag joint fails.
"I am completely broke and have the ability to sustain that"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote n2fordwagons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-July-2014 at 11:08AM

While I was at the hardware store, I noticed that the holes in the new rubber piece are the same diameter as the holes in the U joint.  Therefore, if I were to use the provided bolts (5/16"), there would have been a decent amount of play where those bolts attach to the U joint.  So, I just went up to a 3/8" bolt, which fit perfectly in both the new rubber piece and the U joint.  Will that be an issue?  Is there supposed to be play in the U joint holes?  Am I over-analyzing this?!  :)  Sorry for all of the questions.  I just don't wanna take any chances when it comes to something as important as steering.

Here's what I've got.  See any problems with it?
 
 
 
Jeff

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote n2fordwagons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-July-2014 at 11:12AM
Also, I tightened the nuts/bolts pretty tight, which compressed the rubber.  I couldn't find any specs on how tight they should be.  Any issues with that?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bmf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-July-2014 at 11:17AM
Your solution is good.  Play is not wanted.  It will multiply  and make a sloppy steering wheel.
"I am completely broke and have the ability to sustain that"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote occupant Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-July-2014 at 1:33PM
Exactly. I tightened the ever loving crap out of the one I put in Strong Bad II...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-July-2014 at 1:56PM
looks good, only suggestion i would make is if you still have it out, or can get to the nuts, i would change the regular nuts for poly lock nuts, so if they should loosen they won't vibrate off.  probably less than 20 cents each- cheap insurance!!!
JOHN
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote haw_y_n_merc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-February-2016 at 6:43PM
Glad I just saw this.....wish I saw it before my recent post. Looks like I have a way ahead to fix mine....this looks like a really good fix! Use 3/8 bolts with lock nuts...awesome....Mahalo....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coolrite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-July-2016 at 3:28AM
i am looking for this part exactly for a 1976 gran torino if anyone knows where i can find it please help me out


Edited by coolrite - 06-July-2016 at 3:39AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Iain Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-August-2021 at 4:37AM
Originally posted by n2fordwagons n2fordwagons wrote:

 
 

Thread resurrection!

Rag joint has come to pieces, so need to change it over. I have the steering box bolt out, and the nut off the uj that attaches to the steering column.
Does the bolt on the left of the pic (on the uj) actually come out, and does it need to come out? Can't get it to budge even a little and the joint is firm on the steering column. Any tips at all? 
Thanks, 
Iain. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72 RS 351 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-August-2021 at 8:12AM
That bolt has to come out as there is a slot in the side of the shaft which the bolt goes through. Don't put force on the joint, that will pinch the bolt more. The joint needs to be relaxed, the shaft in the centered position of that bolts hole.

Spray it well with a penetrant like Kroil etc, let it soak in a while. Then push the joint towards and away from the steering shaft, see if there is any play, you want a little play there. You want to feel some movement, and then move the shaft so it's centered in that small amount of play. Like you would jiggle a bolt and the part it threads into, to get it to thread out, do the same with that joint if you can get the bolt to start rotating out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Iain Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-August-2021 at 1:20AM
Got the bolt moving, and loose. Bolt is slid quite a way out, not binding, but still can't get the shft out.
Should the shaft be a simple slide fit, but be stuck due to 45 years of being there?! Letting it soak a while. 
Have also undone the steering box bolts.
Beginning to wish I'd just took it to someone else to do........it really is a just a couple of bolts and a lot of swearing (and no progress!) 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72 RS 351 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-August-2021 at 2:49AM
Yes, that kind of joint in general are all the same, and the shaft comes out when the bolt is removed far enough. I've never worked on one at this age, but they can be tough when just 10 years old or so. I last worked on my 73 steering box in 1988, I don't remember how hard or not that joint was then.

Keep at it, good luck.
Don
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-August-2021 at 11:03AM
that bolt doesn't need to come all the way out, but the nut must be off to slide it in enough for the slot to allow the shaft to slide off! hold the bolt out till the stop while you slide it offWink
JOHN
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