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Road / Track Suspension Discussion

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SPLUHAR View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SPLUHAR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-April-2012 at 7:16AM
Looking at the pics, seems like there will be bump-steer issues w/ cavalier r/p
 
1976 ELITE, 71 429 w/cam, quadrajet, 4 wheel Mark V disc brakes, 3.25 trac lok, gutted & 12.9'd Mustang steering box
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BackInBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-April-2012 at 9:39AM
Good explanation....good diagram.  Thanks.
So far this looks to me like about one of the best setups:
 
Uses easily replacable components, existing outter tie rods, etc.
 
Following this as a guide/model only a mount would be need to fabricate.   Maybe he is interested in doing a torino....


Edited by BackInBlack - 04-April-2012 at 1:01AM
-John
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SPLUHAR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-April-2012 at 1:38AM
Price is rediculous
1976 ELITE, 71 429 w/cam, quadrajet, 4 wheel Mark V disc brakes, 3.25 trac lok, gutted & 12.9'd Mustang steering box
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BackInBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-April-2012 at 3:16AM

It is expensive...

Look at the pics.   Looking at how the rack is positioned...the parts used...etc.  I think it is a well laid out setup.    I wont buy it...to expensive.  
 
I think some ideas from it can be used to build something for our Torinos...
-John
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psquare75 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-April-2012 at 3:39AM
Agreed. I'd look into rethreading the OEM J body inner tie rods to fit the tie rod sleeves.
Paul
77 XR7 460/C6/3.00:1 *SOLD*
78 XR7 523/C6/3.5:1
79 F100 460/TKO500/3.25:1
'I also have some left over potatoes-I understand you can generate electricity from them'- Foote500
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BackInBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-April-2012 at 3:42AM
Yup ...i was thinking the same...and reuse the standard ford OEM outer tie rod ends (if you dont need a bumpsteer kit)
 
The most money would be spent on the rack adn the u-joints for the column.   Some labor building a cradle support/brackets.
-John
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mkshelton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-April-2012 at 8:51AM
As to a comparison to all you guys are thinking about,
 
How about we talk a little bit about small modifications that would bring the stock steering/ suspension into the 20th century.
 
 
"Sometimes I wonder if I'm actually UNinventing the wheel"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mkshelton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-April-2012 at 8:52AM
But I do appreciate Bnblack work on this though.
"Sometimes I wonder if I'm actually UNinventing the wheel"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BackInBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-April-2012 at 9:17AM
Originally posted by mkshelton mkshelton wrote:

As to a comparison to all you guys are thinking about,
 
How about we talk a little bit about small modifications that would bring the stock steering/ suspension into the 20th century.
 
 

The other steering option other than the rack-n-pinion is a quick ratio saginaw gearbox.   This leaves all the steering stock.   A saginaw power steering pump can be added as well.   The problem I run into is the brackets...which leads into a bracket set from March for a serpentine setup ( about $2k ouch).   Another I found is 
It is much better priced but doesn't have AC bracket



Can be ordered from this company PN 807 is a 10:1 quick ratio with 3 turns lock 2 lock.   This was what I was planning until this rack option was brought up.   I'm not sold either way...trying to weight the pros/cons of each.   The rack option is more work...headaches...but potentially yield better performance.   I need to find out the rack range of motion...that will have a significant impact on the turn radius.


Edited by BackInBlack - 04-April-2012 at 9:21AM
-John
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SPLUHAR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-April-2012 at 10:14AM
When I'm done building my headers, I will be swapping in a saginaw steering box that I re-gutted with z28 quick ratio parts, as well as installing springs from an s10 blazer, front Bilstein circle track shocks for a camaro, re-drilling lower control arms inner pivot point, adding a bumpsteer outer tie rod to the 70 ltd inner tie rod that I got out of a junk yard, matching rear shocks (for a torino).  should be mid summer when its done.  Updates will be added.
1976 ELITE, 71 429 w/cam, quadrajet, 4 wheel Mark V disc brakes, 3.25 trac lok, gutted & 12.9'd Mustang steering box
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psquare75 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-April-2012 at 10:51AM
March Pulley set? $2k? WTF? 

(BBF) get a Saginaw PS bracket from a full size... I have one on the bench ready to go, whenever I get back to my 78... someday. 

*or* get a bracket setup from an 80s E350 RV.. They use a Saginaw, as well as a Sanden A/C compressor.. 

I won't be able to measure that until next week. Need a helper.
Paul
77 XR7 460/C6/3.00:1 *SOLD*
78 XR7 523/C6/3.5:1
79 F100 460/TKO500/3.25:1
'I also have some left over potatoes-I understand you can generate electricity from them'- Foote500
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BackInBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-April-2012 at 12:27PM
Originally posted by Psquare75 Psquare75 wrote:

March Pulley set? $2k? WTF? 

(BBF) get a Saginaw PS bracket from a full size... I have one on the bench ready to go, whenever I get back to my 78... someday. 

*or* get a bracket setup from an 80s E350 RV.. They use a Saginaw, as well as a Sanden A/C compressor.. 

I won't be able to measure that until next week. Need a helper.

I'm not having much luck finding these parts.   Saginaw brackets so far are really hard to come by.   I didn't think a BBF bracket would fit on a 351C...can they?

Yeah...Concept One, March, those nice pulleys setup (you get alt, compressor, ps pump, with it) are nice and expensive.   Frankly I dont look at the engine that much to appreciate them.   I'm good with chassis black paint so long as it works well.

I'm thinking of loosing the cleveland and putting in a 351W so I can use the pulleys, EFI, EDIS from late model stuff.   Tired of getting gouged from these aftermarket vendors.   I would love to keep the cleveland, but trying to add late model improvements is getting ridiculous.   I joined a local club...I'm hoping I can make some contacts to help point me to the right local yards.

Sorry ...didn't mean to hijack this thread....back to the discussion.   

Psquare,  What is the travel on that Cavalier rack you have ?
"I won't be able to measure that until next week. Need a helper."  Is that the response to the travel question?   Lost me on that...




Edited by BackInBlack - 04-April-2012 at 12:28PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BackInBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-April-2012 at 12:30PM
Originally posted by SPLUHAR SPLUHAR wrote:

When I'm done building my headers, I will be swapping in a saginaw steering box that I re-gutted with z28 quick ratio parts, as well as installing springs from an s10 blazer, front Bilstein circle track shocks for a camaro, re-drilling lower control arms inner pivot point, adding a bumpsteer outer tie rod to the 70 ltd inner tie rod that I got out of a junk yard, matching rear shocks (for a torino).  should be mid summer when its done.  Updates will be added.

Sounds nice...similar build up to what I was thinking.  

Redrilling lower arms?   Front arms?  Can you explain what your doing there?

Thanks,
John
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psquare75 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-April-2012 at 3:01PM
Originally posted by BackInBlack BackInBlack wrote:

  


I'm not having much luck finding these parts.   Saginaw brackets so far are really hard to come by.   I didn't think a BBF bracket would fit on a 351C...can they?

 

Ebay! 

Originally posted by BackInBlack BackInBlack wrote:

 
Psquare,  What is the travel on that Cavalier rack you have ?
"I won't be able to measure that until next week. Need a helper."  Is that the response to the travel question?   Lost me on that...



Yes, in reference to the rack travel. 


Edited by Psquare75 - 04-April-2012 at 3:01PM
Paul
77 XR7 460/C6/3.00:1 *SOLD*
78 XR7 523/C6/3.5:1
79 F100 460/TKO500/3.25:1
'I also have some left over potatoes-I understand you can generate electricity from them'- Foote500
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BackInBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-April-2012 at 1:46AM
Any use this part??

Converts a FORD OEM power steering bracket to use saginaw pumps.


Probably for a 351W but I dont see how it would be different vs a 351C if it converts the mounting points from the Thompson pump to a Saginaw pump.
-John
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psquare75 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-April-2012 at 3:47AM
Huh.. Never even seen that before.
Paul
77 XR7 460/C6/3.00:1 *SOLD*
78 XR7 523/C6/3.5:1
79 F100 460/TKO500/3.25:1
'I also have some left over potatoes-I understand you can generate electricity from them'- Foote500
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SPLUHAR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-April-2012 at 6:33AM
The front lower control arm is thru-bolted to the cross member @ it's inner pivot.  I will be attempting to re-drill a new hole (holes) at least 1 3/8" higher on the cross member, and possible some amount towards the outside of the car.  It really depends on how the control arms will clear the motor mount bolts.  This mod will help (alot) with the positive camber gain on the outside front tire (and negative gain on the inside tire) when the car leans in a curve.
 
on the rear lower control arms, I'm going to cut the lower brackets off of another axle and weld/reinforce them onto the bottoms of the existing brackets, moving the back-end of the lower control arms down 2" (hok-i-fied south-side machine mod - improves instant center location, aids in traction)


Edited by SPLUHAR - 05-April-2012 at 6:35AM
1976 ELITE, 71 429 w/cam, quadrajet, 4 wheel Mark V disc brakes, 3.25 trac lok, gutted & 12.9'd Mustang steering box
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psquare75 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-April-2012 at 6:41AM
Wouldn't ball joint spacers on the upper control arm be easier and less stressful on the lower control arm bars?



Paul
77 XR7 460/C6/3.00:1 *SOLD*
78 XR7 523/C6/3.5:1
79 F100 460/TKO500/3.25:1
'I also have some left over potatoes-I understand you can generate electricity from them'- Foote500
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SPLUHAR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-April-2012 at 7:10AM
It looks like a ball joint spacer isnt going to change where the ball joint pivot point is, it's changing the angle of the upper arm.  An imaginary line drawn from the inner pivot to the outer pivot would not change, and neither would the roll center, nor the camber gain.
 
can't find the balljoint spacer that's mentioned in your link, only ones like this:
 
used for a raised vehicle so that upper control arm doesnt bottom out on frame.
 
I've looked for a "tall" balljoint, but havent been able to find one in the correct taper.
 
the closest i came was 22308, 4 bolt upper:
 
 


Edited by SPLUHAR - 05-April-2012 at 7:29AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eliteman76 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-April-2012 at 7:29AM
Random interjection: Found something while digging on the TCP rod bushings. Something I considered 4-5 years ago wanting to do but never did.
 
 
Some mention of the Team Guts 1972 GTS {the one that is now currently residing in Europe, that was run in the Gumball 3000 rally back in 2002-2003}
 
Also, back to the immediate subject with spacers, I don't see that being of benefit.
You might as well do this:
 
 
 
Wait, no, sorry, wrong shot LOL
 


Edited by Eliteman76 - 05-April-2012 at 7:29AM
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