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Seating a C6 Torque converter

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    Posted: 29-September-2018 at 12:05PM
I am trying to seat the torque converter for my C6. I seem to be only getting two thanks, I can't get a third clunk. It's a new converter. I put a straight edge across the front and the studs are well back from the bell housing edge. I measured roughly 0.9" from the bell housing edge to the stud bosses. The centre of the converter is slightly forward of the bell housing edge.

I also rotated the converter and pulled it and it seems to be moving the pump. I can see the pumps flat edges they seem to move if I turn the converter and then remove it.

So I tried connecting the trans to the engine. It seemed somewhat stubborn to get them to mate and the bell housing bolts had to be used to get it to make oksy. Once it did, it seems like everything mated okay but there didn't seem to be any real free play from the converter to the flexplate. I uncoupled them to check the converter again and it will not seat any further.

I also saw this chart which shows the clearance should be 1 1/8" for a C6. I am only .9" roughly.

http://www.tciauto.com/tc/auto-trans-faq/#4

Any advice?
Vince

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-September-2018 at 1:15PM
Vince,
 Has the front pump been taken apart/removed from the C6 case, could have installed the pump's drive gear backwards/upside down. There is a taper to the pump gear that should face out to allow easier installation of TC. The TC should be back from face of bell housing 13/16" up to a 351 CI and 360CI and larger engines have 1 1/8" space between bell housing face and converter stud "pads".  Also make sure the transmission's TC input shaft is fully seated within the transmission, it should sit "proud" of stator support about 1.375". When fully seated, you can't quite get the tips of your fingers between the back of converter and the bell housing. Hope this helps.
www.supermotors.net/22468
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-September-2018 at 1:38PM
 yes like todd said. DO NOT use the bolts to draw the bellhousing up to the engine!!! if the converter isn't back all the way drawing it up can break the pump drive!!! ConfusedOuch did that years ago with a turbo 350 Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-September-2018 at 2:46PM
some are a royal Censored bitch to get the last step

jerk the converter sideways with the studs while lifting and gently pushing

if you don't have a gap between the converter and the flex, it's not in

if the converter meets the flex before the trans housing meets the block, it's not in

 Exclamation AND DEFINITELY NO CRANKING BOLTS! Exclamation

if it's a tough one you'll need to do it out in the open / not under the car. use one of the inspection plate cover bolt holes to bolt on an offset combo wrench to hold the converter in until you have the trans 99% up in the tunnel before you remove it, very easy to have the converter slip out a step when you don't notice it. or you can make a piece of metal to act as a retainer that you can leave in place until you know You're Golden

also, mind the drain plug into the hole in the flex ;)



Edited by Rockatansky - 29-September-2018 at 2:50PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-September-2018 at 3:38PM
The trans was fully rebuilt by an experienced builder so I can only assume the pump was done correctly. The TC is .940" from the bell housing to the mounting bosses. I removed the new converter and installed the old and it was the same spec.

I tried reinstalling a few times and it seemed like I got three engagements. I think before the first two were happening together. It is in there solid no play and tight, it can't get it on further, but I can just get the tips of my fingers behind it.

Todd on those measurements you gave, where would a 400 fall? It's essentially identical to a 351M so does it use the bigger spec or smaller? Also how do you make that measurement on the input shaft? Mine did come loose once when I pulled the TC but I was sure to make sure it was fully seated before I reinstalled.

I measured front the back of the block to the flex plate and it seems to be about the same as the TC measurement. It is hard to get a proper measurement because the flex plate has a raised edge between the ring gear and the mounting holes. I should mention this is a new flexplate too, so it could be the problem.

When I did have them together it seemed like it fit with zero clearance. I did use the bolts to help mate it better, but it was only because the angles were a little off and I couldn't get it any better. It felt like the TC pilot was a little off center and the bolts just line things up and it "popped" in place. Hopefully it did no damage. I saw the drain bolt and it was through the flexplate hole.

I will try and get this together outside the car and install as a unit. Always two steps forward and one back....
Vince

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-September-2018 at 3:54PM
have you test fitted the converter to the engine / flex by itself?

check / massage the pilot for burrs ...

also there's a long & short spline on the input shaft, IDK which way it goes for sure ATM

it may be close but the converter studs need to be loose and able to rock back & forth in the holes,

you can't bind the pump between the motor & trans

block plate in place?



Edited by Rockatansky - 29-September-2018 at 4:00PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-September-2018 at 4:24PM
Vince,
 It sounds like it is installed correctly, even though the measurement seems a bit shallow. The 351M/400 uses the same C6 transmission case as a 429/460 C6, so the TC stud boss to bell housing face measurement should be closer to 1.125". That said, just as long as you didn't have to crank on the TC nuts to seat the TC into the crankshaft's pilot hole and there wasn't any binding as you turned the engine to gain access to the TC nuts, You should be good to go. When I re-installed my C6 after TC and servo lever changes, I had roughly 3/16-1/4" between flex plate and TC stud mounting bosses. The TC studs came through the flex plate about 1/4-3/8" just enough to start the 3/8-24 nuts. As you tighten the TC nuts it will naturally pull the TC toward engine block and take up the 3/16-1/4" distance, this distance keeps the TC hub from bottoming out inside the stator. I measured the input shaft "stick-out" where it extends out of the stator support.   
www.supermotors.net/22468
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-September-2018 at 4:51PM
^^^ what those guys said!!!
you said you have a new flex plate... how does it compare with your old one???
IIRC joe had an issue with his new flex plate!!!??
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-September-2018 at 2:26AM
Thanks guys. Hopefully I have some time to work on it today. I would say there was no play between the studs and the flexplate. It was a snug fit, so something isn't right. When I turned over the engine there was no slop between the studs and the holes.

I do have the block plate in place. I don't have my original flexplate anymore, it went with my engine but never came back because it came with a new one. I don't think it's a high end flexplate, just an EnginePro brand. Looking at my receipt, it was only about $40. I wish I never sent my original with the motor.

I also did fit the converter to the flexplate it fits great. I just think the clearances seem too tight too me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-September-2018 at 7:32AM
all i know is, i got learned that the converter needs to come out of the pump to meet the flex.

if the converter don't wiggle with the trans fully mated to the motor, sump'n ain't right.

you're sure the flex isn't on backwards?

can you snap a pic of the gap / or lack thereof at a converter stud?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-September-2018 at 8:38AM
I assembled the engine and trans out of the car a few times, and it went together easy.  I was able to slide it into them together with easy by hand. I think yesterday, the reason for the stiff connection was the studs or the pilot was a tad off the holes.
 
Once they were connected, with just a few loose bolts there was some play at the stud.  I could move the stud in the hole.  However, when I snugged the bell housing bolts, the slack went away.  I could no longer move the stud by hand and there seemed to be zero play.  It didn't seem to bind or anything, there was just no more play.  Turning over the engine was just as easy as if the transmission was not connected.  It just seems like there is zero play, and I am not sure if that is okay.
 
According to this site, Ford transmissions should be 1" from the mounting bosses to the bell housing with a .050 tolerance.  At .945" I am pretty much on spec for that site.  Maybe I am just being overly picky, but I don't want to tear this out of the car or mess up my transmission pump.
 
 
Here are some pics:
 
This is the stud, with the bell housing bolts tight:
 
 
 
 
This is the stud when it has play and the bell housing is just loosely fitted together by hand:
 
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by 72FordGTS - 30-September-2018 at 8:39AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-September-2018 at 9:12AM
Vince,
 All looks good in the pics Thumbs Up, but the problem is it all has to come back out, you forgot to install the torque converter seal...………..gotcha LOL.
 
Some websites state <1" (B&M) some 1 1/8" (TCI), I guess it really comes down to TC manufacturer design/measurements.
www.supermotors.net/22468
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-September-2018 at 9:52AM
measure the stud protrusion, snug down 2 nuts across from each other and measure the stud protrusion again to see if the converter pulled to the flex ...

could be a cheezy flex, $40 is a good jobber price before several rebox / rebrandings, does your paperwork show a part number for the flex?

and Yes converter snout heights vary from maker to maker Wacko


Edited by Rockatansky - 30-September-2018 at 9:57AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-September-2018 at 10:17AM
here's a flexplate listing i use, http://www.bulkpart.com/2/category/FLYford.html

F201 should be correct for your engine trans combo D1AZ-6375-A

F205 might be the CJ flex D1ZZ-6375-A

F220 has the correct diameter w/weight, but also 302? E1TZ-6375C

but the first thing that stands out is the F200 flex,

Flywheel, Ford C5 / AOD, 289, 302, 351 engines
Reference OEM # E0AZ-6375A, 14.23 inch diameter, w/weight
Fits some C4, C5, AOD & FMX transmissions.
Will NOT fit a C6!

both times i've swapped out an FMX for a C6 i used the FMX flex and they were perfect

Vince what Ford PN does the master list call out for your car?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-September-2018 at 11:39AM
FWIW i'd source a quality / reputable mfg'r flex and see if it clearances better

is this the POS you have there?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-September-2018 at 1:08PM
Originally posted by aquartlow aquartlow wrote:

Vince,
 All looks good in the pics Thumbs Up, but the problem is it all has to come back out, you forgot to install the torque converter seal...………..gotcha LOL.
 
Some websites state <1" (B&M) some 1 1/8" (TCI), I guess it really comes down to TC manufacturer design/measurements.
 
Haha Todd, you had me going for a second.  I have a feeling I am overthinking this and like you said it's probably good.  I just don't want to mess things up after investing so much time and money. It's been a long time since I have done this kind of work.
 
Originally posted by Rockatansky Rockatansky wrote:

measure the stud protrusion, snug down 2 nuts across from each other and measure the stud protrusion again to see if the converter pulled to the flex ...
 
I did this and it didn't really seem to have any noticeable change.  It seems like there is basically no play, but nothing is too tight or binding.  I'd feel more comfortable if there was a small amount of play. 
 
Originally posted by Rockatansky Rockatansky wrote:

Vince what Ford PN does the master list call out for your car?
 
The Parts Master Catalog shows D1AZ 6375-A
 
Originally posted by Rockatansky Rockatansky wrote:

FWIW i'd source a quality / reputable mfg'r flex and see if it clearances better
is this the POS you have there?
 
Not quite, but it looks similar.  Mine is EnginePro 32-201.  It looks like just an OEM replacement type flexplate.  It is what Tim included with my engine. The invoice shows that is specific to 351M/400, and it looks like he listed it as a "Pioneer brand"  so I am sure it's some sort of jobber part. 
 
I might look into a better quality aftermarket unit and check the clearances.  Any recommendations on what is a decent one?  Most I looked at just seem to be listed for all small block Ford.
 
The converter I have is a Transtar FM127 converter.  My builder said he used that brand for many years and never had issues.  FWIW, the clearances on the OEM converter were identical to this new converter.
 
 


Edited by 72FordGTS - 30-September-2018 at 1:20PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-September-2018 at 1:13PM
the only problem i see with beginning at smack flush is it's going heat up and change things, jamming the pump

not to mention crank thrust and that will grow slightly after fire-up too

does your trans guy make house calls?




Edited by Rockatansky - 30-September-2018 at 1:26PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-September-2018 at 1:22PM
Yeah, good point.  I think I may give my trans guy a call and see what he says. 
 
In the mean time, do you have any suggestions if I decide to order a new flex plate?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-September-2018 at 1:29PM
he may even have a stash of flexies to compare Wink

you like the comfort of the easy return with your local guy so see what he's pushing this week?

Summit has few to pick from, SFI / non-SFI ...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-September-2018 at 1:45PM

I am pretty sure my local guy is good on returns.  I may even pick his brain as he has build all kinds of engines and cars over the years. 

Why is there a difference for a 351M/400 flex to a 351C?  Both have the same diameter and counter weight?  So what's the difference?
 
This video shows some difference in the Ford flexplates, although not specifically relevant to my situation.
 


Edited by 72FordGTS - 30-September-2018 at 1:47PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-September-2018 at 1:54PM
leave it to Ford to NOT standardize the crank flange to rear block face offset,

i'm sure it was good for the economy though ...

how do you feel about getting an offset dimension if you separate it again?

from the block plate would be fine :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-September-2018 at 2:04PM
 he talks about swapping an AOD... when i did mine, only difference i noticed was the drain plug was on the opposite side of the stud 302/aod vs 531w/fmx which he didn't even mention...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-September-2018 at 2:19PM
I realize that it was a different application, just showing the so many variations Ford had in this stuff!  Just curious too if the 351C had a different offset from the 400, which may give me some more play.  the OEM replacement shows a 400 a 201 and the 351C a 202 flexplate.  
Then you look at the hi-po aftermarket stuff and they are the same for all small blocks with 28oz weights.  289-400, same listings.  Ford NEVER makes anything easy....
 
I will make some calls, and I in all likelihood will have to separate it again. I will update later. Thanks for all the advice..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-September-2018 at 2:20PM
multiply the confabulation, converter offset, ring gear offset and drain plug hole

what else ... weights as he pointed out, 50oz, 28oz, none

and don't forget converter bolt pattern, 10.5" and 11.4 for 'same' applications

when i had access to the pile-O-flex's we determined that the AOD's were also the same as the FMX / C6's

things must change often & w/o notice in the Ford engineering section
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-September-2018 at 3:30PM
yeah that's the thing i've always disliked about ford... the lack of interchangeability or confusion!Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-October-2018 at 11:45AM
So I called my transmission guy and he said there needs to be play. His only suggestion was that the converter may have a hard time seating in the pump drive so to tap the pilot with a rubber mallet to see if it will go in any further. Otherwise he says that it's probably the flex plate.

I contacted Pioneer out of curiosity to see the difference between the FRA201 AND FRA202 plates. He claims the only difference is the weight not the offset? I thought 351C and 351M/400 both used a 28 oz weight?

Anyway I will pull it apart when I have time and check it again.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-October-2018 at 12:10PM
hmm, that could be a possibility being all new... could be a little tight and or a burr on the new surfaces???
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-October-2018 at 2:03PM
351C is 28.x imbalance same as 302C, 351M, 400 and 351W

and Windsor based 302 before they changed to 50 oz


Edited by Rockatansky - 01-October-2018 at 2:04PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-October-2018 at 12:36AM
Originally posted by californiajohnny californiajohnny wrote:

hmm, that could be a possibility being all new... could be a little tight and or a burr on the new surfaces???
 
I will inspect for a bur when I take it apart.  He mentioned something about the fact that I might not be fully seated into the pump drive.  He just told me that it is the TC not being seated 99% of the time.
Originally posted by Rockatansky Rockatansky wrote:

351C is 28.x imbalance same as 302C, 351M, 400 and 351W

and Windsor based 302 before they changed to 50 oz
 
That's what I thought.  So I am not sure why the Pioneer guy said that there is a different weight between the 351C and 351M/400 flexplates?  I think he just didn't want to answer my questions or didn't know the answer. 
 
I did find this thread which shows that the TCI flexplate has the mounting pads closer to the engine.  So it might work.  Form looking at Summit's website, it seems to be a pretty universal fit, fits the C4, C6, and the Windsor and 335 series engines.  Maybe that's why it has more spacing, so it fits all applications.  If I can do a return, I might try it out.  Too bad it's so pricey.
 
Vince

1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-October-2018 at 9:43AM
So to update, I got a factory Ford C6 flexplate from a 302 to test for fit. I tried it out and it is the exact same as the aftermarket plate. I can wiggle the studs until I snug the bell housing bolts and then it's too tight to wiggle.

I also tried seating the converter with the rubber mallet and it didn't move at all. So I am thinking the problem is likely the transmission.

Is there any reason the converter wouldn't seat as far back as it should? I don't know what the best course of action is from here. I am pretty sure I could use a c4 style flex to gain the clearance but I am concerned that there may be an issue with the trans build causing the converter to sit out too far.
Vince

1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car
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