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gpd294 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 07-January-2014 at 5:37AM
I haven't been driving my wagon recently mainly because of the weather. It's been cold out and since my heater core is by-passed I don't have any heat. Well I went out to start her up  the other day and she was very hesitant to turn over. After a few tries she started.
 
Is this a starter issue or just cold weather related? The battery is fine as I stopped by Autozone and had it checked.
 
I did go out for a drive and everything seemed fine, but I had noticed before when it was warm out that after a good drive when I went to re-start it was also hesitant. Could it be the starter wiring/cables?
 
Any help is appreciated. Thanks!
Carlos....1975 Gran Torino Squire Station Wagon restored to look like a 1973 Torino Station

Wagon my Dad bought new from McAnary Ford on June 6, 1973 in Gary,Indiana
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-January-2014 at 6:15AM
Definitely check your wiring and connection ends and termination points for looseness and/or corrosion, as well as cable's overall condition. You may also want to check the starter solenoid. Vehicle grounds are an often overlooked problem area. Without being there is hard to pinpoint the problem area, but this may give you a couple ideas of what to start with. Good luck. Todd
www.supermotors.net/22468
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-January-2014 at 6:21AM
what oil grade is in it?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 75GranMan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-January-2014 at 1:41PM
Oil probably wouldn't be a concern when the engine is warm. Voltage drop your cables to check for bad connections or bad cables.
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Tighten it down until it snaps and then back it off a half turn!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote torino75 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-January-2014 at 1:46PM

Hi,

here is what i think:

If your car has been sitting for a while, the battery slowly discharged over time and that's why it was slowly turning over the engine. You took the car for a ride and the alternator recharged it so when you arrived to have it checked, it was fine.


On the hard starting when hot problem, what i think you are experiencing is a starter heat soak problem, google it. there are a few solutions to this problem, namely heat shielding the starter or headers, replacing solenoid spring to a lighter grade, and of course buying a new Mini hi torque starter, which  cures the problem. I had the problem myself, had to wait up to 15 minutes for it to cool and re-start. embarrassing at the gas station to say the least. Put new mini hi-torque starter and bigger wiring, never had the problem again.

Hope this help you!


Syl

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-January-2014 at 2:20PM
I upgraded to this little PMGR starter(on the right) and it has eliminated any hot and cold start issues on my big block Ranchero.

Not sure if this is the answer to your problems, it was for me though. This starter is just so much more efficient/powerful over the stock starter(like night and day difference). This may be the type of starter that Syl(above post) spoke of.
www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires.

No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t.

Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote torino75 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-January-2014 at 2:52PM
This is exactly the kind of starter i am talking about.
I bought a powermaster. No more starting related problem since...

Syl
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gpd294 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-January-2014 at 3:03AM
Thanks for all the input guys! I'll be checking the connections and wiring this weekend and possibly replacing the starter if need be as well.
 
Ran into this article from another website talking about the difference between both factory style starters versus PMGR starters:
 
Carlos....1975 Gran Torino Squire Station Wagon restored to look like a 1973 Torino Station

Wagon my Dad bought new from McAnary Ford on June 6, 1973 in Gary,Indiana
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-January-2014 at 6:36AM
no the oil wouldn't make any dif after it's warm... back to basics. check the battery cells for water level, ALL battery connections, don't skip the ground to the block! and yes it needs to be to the block or a head, not to a front accessory bracket or the waterpump

last summer I noticed the starter in my CVPI was turning slow, I checked the battery out pretty good and kinda let it go. then a month or so later I get nothing at the key, dead. the ring terminal on the starter mounted solenoid dissolved itself separated. the cable was no longer connected to the terminal and there was a 800+ amp hot lead hangin in the wind

Edited by Rockatansky - 08-January-2014 at 6:50AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-January-2014 at 7:26AM
Originally posted by gpd294 gpd294 wrote:

Thanks for all the input guys! I'll be checking the connections and wiring this weekend and possibly replacing the starter if need be as well.
 

Ran into this article from another website talking about the difference between both factory style starters versus PMGR starters:

 



Good info on the Fordmuscle article. Another thing to check, if the engine cranks over slowly try this. Remove the coil wire from the distributor cap, try to start engine by letting it turn over 8-10 times, now feel the positive and negative cables from the battery and starter solenoid. If one of the cables feels warmer or hotter than the other, there is either corrosion or a bad connection somewhere on this wire/cable.
www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires.

No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t.

Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-January-2014 at 7:37AM
Originally posted by aquartlow aquartlow wrote:

If one of the cables feels warmer or hotter than the other, there is either corrosion or a bad connection somewhere on this wire/cable.


that's a good tip   

I forgot to mention another cable problem I had, turned out to be the cable itself. after cleaning the connections umpteen times, 'someone' suggested to just change out the ground cable. after who knows how many jump starts & rescue calls, that car never had another crank/start issue. ever

could've been the cable crimp in the ring end was corroded and there was no way to see it?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gpd294 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-February-2014 at 7:43AM
Well as I posted on my project thread I went ahead and ordered the PowerMasters Mini starter and it arrived today. I went home for lunch and saw it at the front door.
 
Does anyone have any idea why it has a sticker on there saying it voids the warranty if installed on a carburated vehicle? And is it ok to install on a craburated vehicle?
 
When I ordered it, it didn't ask specifically if it was going on a carburated or fuel injected vehicle....Confused
 
Thanks Guys! 
Carlos....1975 Gran Torino Squire Station Wagon restored to look like a 1973 Torino Station

Wagon my Dad bought new from McAnary Ford on June 6, 1973 in Gary,Indiana
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gpd294 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-February-2014 at 8:25AM
Carlos....1975 Gran Torino Squire Station Wagon restored to look like a 1973 Torino Station

Wagon my Dad bought new from McAnary Ford on June 6, 1973 in Gary,Indiana
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-February-2014 at 9:32AM
Originally posted by gpd294 gpd294 wrote:

I think I found my answer:
 


 

 


I wonder if this Powermastermotorsports starter is exactly the same inside and out as the DB Electrical PGMR starter I had a pic of earlier in this thread. Looks awful similar. Please post some pics.
www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires.

No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t.

Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bata747-8 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-February-2014 at 3:13PM
Just to put in a good word about Powermaster. I have always had good luck with their products, and most recently with the 75 Sport, I had ordered one of their better starters. When I got my battery cables (custom 1/0 with heavy duty terminals) the terminal was too thick for the starter post. I contacted Powermaster, and they sent me a new longer post free of charge. Very impressed.

Of course when I asked them why the post wasn't longer, they said nobody has complained before, and wanted to know how big of a cable I was using. When I told them, I had to explain that I was an electrical engineer for Boeing, and that was why I was so eccentric about the large cables.

Good company overall. Just wish my 10SI series alternator had a ground terminal on the back like some 10 and 12SI's do.

Edited by bata747-8 - 07-February-2014 at 3:14PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gpd294 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-February-2014 at 3:06AM
Here are few pics of the Powermaster starter. Looks pretty similar to yours Todd...did yours say anything about a voided warranty when you purchased it?
 
 
Carlos....1975 Gran Torino Squire Station Wagon restored to look like a 1973 Torino Station

Wagon my Dad bought new from McAnary Ford on June 6, 1973 in Gary,Indiana
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gpd294 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-February-2014 at 3:08AM
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Wagon my Dad bought new from McAnary Ford on June 6, 1973 in Gary,Indiana
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-February-2014 at 10:54AM
Originally posted by gpd294 gpd294 wrote:

Here are few pics of the Powermaster starter. Looks pretty similar to yours Todd...did yours say anything about a voided warranty when you purchased it?
 

 



gpd294,
I wasn't able to view pics, not sure why. I did not receive any warning of voiding any warranty, if the DB Electrical PGMR starter would be installed on an older vehicle(maybe they have some sort of warning in the paper work that came with the starter, I did not see any warning labels that for sure). Not sure what Powermaster gets for their starter but I paid $49.20 shipped to my door, directly from DB Electrical with a 1 year warranty. Todd
www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires.

No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t.

Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gpd294 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-February-2014 at 3:09AM
Hmmmm? Not quite sure why the photos didn't come out...Dead
 
But it looked just like the one you posted before...I just wish this PowerMaster starter only cost $50.00...Double whammy!  Dead
Carlos....1975 Gran Torino Squire Station Wagon restored to look like a 1973 Torino Station

Wagon my Dad bought new from McAnary Ford on June 6, 1973 in Gary,Indiana
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gpd294 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-February-2014 at 3:16AM
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Wagon my Dad bought new from McAnary Ford on June 6, 1973 in Gary,Indiana
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BadHabit351 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-February-2014 at 6:25AM

Quote  
gpd294,
I wasn't able to view pics, not sure why. I did not receive any warning of voiding any warranty, if the DB Electrical PGMR starter would be installed on an older vehicle(maybe they have some sort of warning in the paper work that came with the starter, I did not see any warning labels that for sure). Not sure what Powermaster gets for their starter but I paid $49.20 shipped to my door, directly from DB Electrical with a 1 year warranty. Todd

I bought the starter from DB Electrical. My stroker Cleveland (10.01:1 compression)  kicked back and the starter would not engage. I took it apart and discovered that the planetary gear was plastic and was stripped out.

Not sure if all PMGR starters are of that design, but I didn't even fool with sending mine back since it would have been replaced with the exact same starter. The one I bought from the parts store seems to be better made (it's for a 1995 5.0L Mustang).


Edited by BadHabit351 - 12-February-2014 at 6:25AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote papadeath Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-October-2018 at 3:33PM
Well I bought one of those starters, the 45 dollar one someone was talking about and it didn't work. I'm sitting here right now hot and it won't start, I have the starter wrapped in thermal cloth too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote papadeath Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-October-2018 at 3:35PM
Yea, DB electrical, dang thing didn't help at all, so I'm sitting here waiting for it to cool down...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-October-2018 at 2:04AM
I use one and have recommended them in the past, possibly they have downgraded their quality, maybe more issues than just the starter exist. How much initial timing, what size cables are used for (+) & (-) and how are the terminations, what size battery/what CCA? Maybe instead of wrapping the starter, fabbing up a simple heat shield out of sheet metal may allow less heat soak and some airflow for cooling.
I run 0ga cables for battery/ground and to starter(+), all copper terminals are soldered on by me, my 9.25 -1  472" has 20 degrees initial timing(due to cam events) w/ 5 degree start retard(=15 degrees BTDC initial at start), group 65 850 CCA battery, 6126 Hooker headers with no wrap or heat shielding on starter.  
I heard folks with 13 to 1 compression big block Fords use them with very few complaints and have a much better track record compared to remanned units, that said DB Electrical could have skimped on quality lately. FWIW, a stock factory Motorcraft PMGR starter for the later EFI 460's('92-'96) HAVE plastic planetary gears.
www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires.

No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t.

Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote papadeath Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-October-2018 at 11:33AM
Yea, you know what, I'm a reward, that battery was weak, I had swapped it from my Toyota truck for some stupid reason a while back and never swapped it back. It was an off brand. Now that I have my original back in its works just fine, and Todd, you keep askin me what's in my car and its probably a clone of yours besides the mods to the motor, I did all ur upgrades, wires, relays, fans, starter alternator, etc, and timing, lol.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-October-2018 at 12:27PM
Originally posted by papadeath papadeath wrote:

and Todd, you keep askin me what's in my car and its probably a clone of yours besides the mods to the motor, I did all ur upgrades, wires, relays, fans, starter alternator, etc, and timing, lol.
 
No wonder you have had so many problems...……EmbarrassedLOL.
  Good to hear the starting issue was easily fixed with a better battery, a group 65 is what I run but doing so required widening the battery tray about an inch or so.
www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires.

No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t.

Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote papadeath Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-October-2018 at 3:40AM
Really? Heck I thought these stock battery trays were big enough for anything, mine def fills up the tray, the one I have in there now. Its a Bosch, picked up at poop boys a few years ago, bout the same time I bought the other one for the truck, but even though those 2 batts were purchased around the same time, that Bosch is holding its power much better.
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