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unlovedford View Drop Down
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    Posted: 11-August-2014 at 3:34PM
Does anyone here have any experience on the 170-200 sixes?

The Falcon wagon I just bought has a rebuilt six in it. Got a bit more of the story - the last owner and his buddy tried starting it, ran but no oil pressure. His buddy suggested that whoever built the engine may have left a "plug" out from the timing chain area and that was probably the issue. Anyone ever heard of that? Engine is obviously a rebuild that has not seen any use and has been sitting a long time. Oil looks new, everything looks fine. Thought about pulling the distributor and seeing if I could get some pressure built up with a drill. The guys said they only ran it for a short period and shut it off when pressure didn't come up. Looks like it had never been cranked before they tried it. Any suggestions before I yank it out? Whoever built it installed a brand new fuel pump, carb, distributor, coil, filler caps, filters, etc.

May not keep it in here, but a rebuilt six does have it's own appeal and I would like to hear it run before pulling if I decide to go the V8 route.

1) "plug" left out?
2) oil pump lost it's prime from sitting?
3) bad oil pump?

Edited by unlovedford - 11-August-2014 at 3:36PM
Joe
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-August-2014 at 3:39PM
i worked on lots of falcon 170's way back in the day. i'd try the drill thing and maybe remove the valve cover or something to see if any oil is flowing
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-August-2014 at 3:46PM
you should be able to hear a lot of oil moving inside if there's a plug missing
 
not familiar with the internals on that one but yeah it happens. long time ago a bud left a plug or 2 out of a small mopar, had some pressure cold but no pressure as the temp came up. between a couple guys that worked on it they were sure the plugs were missing, after they got them in the motor was fine except for being a small mope LOL Cry LOL
 
another, big mope, the lazy machinist supplied std bearings on an undersize ground crank. same deal, some pressure cold falling away as temp came up. swapped bearings & it's still running 20 years later
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote unlovedford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-August-2014 at 4:00PM
From what I was told, the pressure never came up. I had not heard of a plug by the timing cover. I know some engines have oil ports that are plugged to slow or speed drainback to the pan - whichever is needed - but this one is news to me.
Joe
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-August-2014 at 5:47PM
i think they mean the plugs at the ends of the lifter bores, some engines have like mini freeze plug type and some have thread in 1/8"npt pipe plugs. maybe the pump shaft is out or the pick up screen???
JOHN
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote unlovedford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-August-2014 at 2:20AM
Going to try the drill first. If nothing, then I'll pull it out. Thanks guys.
Joe
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-August-2014 at 2:49AM
maybe a nice quiet hand crank speed handle so you can hear what's goin on inside?
even a ratchet will get the oil moving and you'll be able to judge the resistance of the pump by feel,
you won't get that gentle touch with Power Tools
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote antlerfiend Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-August-2014 at 3:09AM
Make sure that that drive shaft for the oil pump is installed correctly. Assuming they have one.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 75GranMan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-August-2014 at 1:52PM
yup , I've had that before. A kid at the local high school rebuilt the straight six in his Granada. he had no oil pressure upon start up. the local machine shop had removed the plug when he boiled the block. I hadn't had to many sixes apart, but if I remember correctly pull the distributor and try priming the engine with an oilpump drive shaft.if the pump picks up prime and you have a fliud loss you should still feel a little resistance with your drill. if you do than it's at least got the prime. if you have prime than you have to start looking for the pressure loss. it's easier to pull the front cover than the pan. I don' think you be able to hear any fliud loss even with the engine off and priming with an electric drill.
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Tighten it down until it snaps and then back it off a half turn!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote unlovedford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-August-2014 at 11:53PM
John, where is this plug located under the timing cover? Thanks for all the input!
Joe
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 75GranMan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-August-2014 at 1:52PM
Joe, man that was a long time ago. Let me see if I can find a picture. it was definitely under the front cover. I don't remember if it was welch or threaded  plug.
John 75Gran Torino 4spd
Tighten it down until it snaps and then back it off a half turn!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote unlovedford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-August-2014 at 1:57PM
The engine is brand new. Pulled the valve cover - shiny and clean inside.

Found the first issue. Pulled the distributor and guess what? No oil pump rod from the distributor to the oil pump. Pulled the plugs and shined a light down the cylinders. Pistons are brand new and clean as a pin. Have a rod on order from O'Reilly's, be here Saturday.

I'll install that and see if it will prime.

Here's a picture of the inside.



Joe
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-August-2014 at 2:23PM
joe, i had a feeling that might be the case, i've seen that a few times (so called "certified mechanics" that can't find their a$$ with both hands) Wacko make sure you have the keeper thing on right so that the new one don't get pulled out if you remove the dist. (it should be against the block on the pump side)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 75GranMan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-August-2014 at 2:29PM
Joe, here's the link...At the 8:50 mark
John 75Gran Torino 4spd
Tighten it down until it snaps and then back it off a half turn!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 75GranMan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-August-2014 at 2:35PM
Didn't read what you found....or didn't find! I hope that thing hadn't been run without the drive!
John 75Gran Torino 4spd
Tighten it down until it snaps and then back it off a half turn!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote unlovedford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-August-2014 at 2:43PM
He said they started it but immediately shut it off when the pressure didn't come up. Hopefully.
Joe
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-August-2014 at 2:46PM
if that's 100% true you might be OK (hopefully they didn't rev it up for several minutes waiting to build pressure! if you know what i mean!)
JOHN
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote unlovedford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-August-2014 at 2:49PM
John, thanks! I will check that if the rod does not fix the issue. Hopefully, it will.
Joe
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote antlerfiend Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-August-2014 at 3:37PM
It should. Can't drive the pump without it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote antlerfiend Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-August-2014 at 6:40PM
Hell, the rod is probably in the oil pan. They probably missed the oil pump and it dropped on down.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote unlovedford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-August-2014 at 3:17AM
The way the engine is made, it would be awfully difficult to drop it into the pan. I'm thinking that someone was either absentminded or did it on purpose. Either way, we'll see on Saturday. If it does pressure up with the rod on a drill, I'll try to start it.

Edited by unlovedford - 14-August-2014 at 3:18AM
Joe
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote antlerfiend Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-August-2014 at 4:16AM
Cool
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote unlovedford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-August-2014 at 3:17AM
Installed the pump driveshaft, attached a drill and the oil blew right out of the distributor hole. Slow the drill down and you can see oil swirling around in the hole. Something is happening down there, but no oil getting up to the rockers, so I guess I'll pull the front cover and see about the plug.

Joe
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Bird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-August-2014 at 10:23AM
Some engines lube the distributor shaft off the lifter gallery. if the distributor isn't in, no oil to top end. I can't say whether this applies to small ford 6 though...
The above post should be read in a "Grumpy Old Man" voice.
Almost forgot: "Get off my lawn!!!"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-August-2014 at 12:50PM
randy's right! most engines the oil must flow around the dist. housing to plug the big hole so oil feeds on through the system. (with oil just dumping back down through that big hole , you can't build any pressure to fill the system) put your dist. in and try it, you should have oil flowing throughout the entire system in about 5-10 seconds, maybe a little longer for the lifters if they have air in them, and /or you could do what i did last night on one of my cars--- screw in a temporary oil gauge into the block to check true pressure ( my light came on and it had plenty of oil i feared the pump quit! nope the sending unit took a sh*t! ) much relieved that's all it was !!! Thumbs UpBig smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote unlovedford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-August-2014 at 4:29PM
Left the valve cover off, installed the distributor, pulled the plugs out, removed the coil lead. Cranked the engine with the starter for 30 seconds (spinning faster with no plugs). Not a drop came up to the head. I'm a bit hesitant to try running it if there is no oil going up to the galley. Every engine I've built had the lifters soaking, pump primed, and everything lubed before assembly. no issues. This has been sitting a long time without ever being run. Could it need to run to get the lifters pumped up enough to feed the push rods? If I do and it starts pumping, then all is good. If not, then I've done some damage.

After using the drill, I can hear oil dripping down from inside the block - not a steady "pouring" sound in the timing chain area.
Joe
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-August-2014 at 5:41PM
remove the sending unit and plumb in a temporary oil gauge, crank the engine again and see if you are getting some pressure on the gauge, that will tell you if it's building pressure in the system if you get pressure then it will just take some more turning over or running to get the lifters pumped up and then fill through the push rods and rockers. all those cars i'm sure you have an extra aftermarket oil gauge laying around, with the fittings and plastic line hook it up temp. and set it somewhere so you can see it while cranking and or running. when you're done just remove it and put the sender back in
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90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED
77 CELICA CUSTOM
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75 VEGA V6 5 SPD
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68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-August-2014 at 5:48PM
thinking about it, cranking may not be fast enough to get much pressure showing on the gauge, but 5 or 10 seconds running the gauge should suddenly jump up with pressure, if not then something's wrong like the plug thing???
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74 VETTE CUSTOM
90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED
77 CELICA CUSTOM
75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED
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75 VEGA V6 5 SPD
70 CHEV C10 P/U
68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dave302 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-August-2014 at 7:32PM
The back/rear of this 1954 through 1964 ford inline six cylinder block has an NPT Type of oil gallery plug installed on it. Maybe this is missing on your engine?


Edited by dave302 - 26-August-2014 at 8:00PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dave302 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-August-2014 at 7:37PM
The rear/back of this 1997 through 1998 ford V6 engine has two NPT Type of oil galley plugs.


Edited by dave302 - 26-August-2014 at 10:09PM
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