Straight Six No Oil Preessure |
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unlovedford
Senior Member Joined: 17-December-2010 Location: Tennessee Status: Offline Points: 10142 |
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Posted: 11-August-2014 at 3:34PM |
Does anyone here have any experience on the 170-200 sixes?
The Falcon wagon I just bought has a rebuilt six in it. Got a bit more of the story - the last owner and his buddy tried starting it, ran but no oil pressure. His buddy suggested that whoever built the engine may have left a "plug" out from the timing chain area and that was probably the issue. Anyone ever heard of that? Engine is obviously a rebuild that has not seen any use and has been sitting a long time. Oil looks new, everything looks fine. Thought about pulling the distributor and seeing if I could get some pressure built up with a drill. The guys said they only ran it for a short period and shut it off when pressure didn't come up. Looks like it had never been cranked before they tried it. Any suggestions before I yank it out? Whoever built it installed a brand new fuel pump, carb, distributor, coil, filler caps, filters, etc. May not keep it in here, but a rebuilt six does have it's own appeal and I would like to hear it run before pulling if I decide to go the V8 route. 1) "plug" left out? 2) oil pump lost it's prime from sitting? 3) bad oil pump? Edited by unlovedford - 11-August-2014 at 3:36PM |
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Joe
1972 Mom's Squire Wagon 1972 Torino Wagon 1976 Torino 1968 Cougar XR7-First batch 1972 Torino 460 1989 BroncoII/Jeeps/Titanimous Popeye and Brutus (Rams) |
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californiajohnny
Moderator Group Joined: 05-October-2013 Location: winlock, wa Status: Offline Points: 14609 |
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i worked on lots of falcon 170's way back in the day. i'd try the drill thing and maybe remove the valve cover or something to see if any oil is flowing
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JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE 74 VETTE CUSTOM 90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED 77 CELICA CUSTOM 75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED 79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED 75 VEGA V6 5 SPD 70 CHEV C10 P/U 68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION |
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Rockatansky
Senior Member Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6072 |
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you should be able to hear a lot of oil moving inside if there's a plug missing
not familiar with the internals on that one but yeah it happens. long time ago a bud left a plug or 2 out of a small mopar, had some pressure cold but no pressure as the temp came up. between a couple guys that worked on it they were sure the plugs were missing, after they got them in the motor was fine except for being a small mope another, big mope, the lazy machinist supplied std bearings on an undersize ground crank. same deal, some pressure cold falling away as temp came up. swapped bearings & it's still running 20 years later
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72 GT Ute
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unlovedford
Senior Member Joined: 17-December-2010 Location: Tennessee Status: Offline Points: 10142 |
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From what I was told, the pressure never came up. I had not heard of a plug by the timing cover. I know some engines have oil ports that are plugged to slow or speed drainback to the pan - whichever is needed - but this one is news to me.
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Joe
1972 Mom's Squire Wagon 1972 Torino Wagon 1976 Torino 1968 Cougar XR7-First batch 1972 Torino 460 1989 BroncoII/Jeeps/Titanimous Popeye and Brutus (Rams) |
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californiajohnny
Moderator Group Joined: 05-October-2013 Location: winlock, wa Status: Offline Points: 14609 |
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i think they mean the plugs at the ends of the lifter bores, some engines have like mini freeze plug type and some have thread in 1/8"npt pipe plugs. maybe the pump shaft is out or the pick up screen???
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JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE 74 VETTE CUSTOM 90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED 77 CELICA CUSTOM 75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED 79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED 75 VEGA V6 5 SPD 70 CHEV C10 P/U 68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION |
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unlovedford
Senior Member Joined: 17-December-2010 Location: Tennessee Status: Offline Points: 10142 |
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Going to try the drill first. If nothing, then I'll pull it out. Thanks guys.
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Joe
1972 Mom's Squire Wagon 1972 Torino Wagon 1976 Torino 1968 Cougar XR7-First batch 1972 Torino 460 1989 BroncoII/Jeeps/Titanimous Popeye and Brutus (Rams) |
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Rockatansky
Senior Member Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6072 |
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maybe a nice quiet hand crank speed handle so you can hear what's goin on inside?
even a ratchet will get the oil moving and you'll be able to judge the resistance of the pump by feel, you won't get that gentle touch with Power Tools
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72 GT Ute
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antlerfiend
Senior Member Joined: 14-June-2010 Location: Louisville,KY Status: Offline Points: 3023 |
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Make sure that that drive shaft for the oil pump is installed correctly. Assuming they have one.
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Alex
72 GTS (Morgan's Baby) 68 CJ Drag Car Clone 65 Mustang (first car) 77 LTD II (Drag Car) 78 Mustang II V6 4 speed |
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75GranMan
Senior Member Joined: 05-April-2011 Location: Colchester, CT Status: Offline Points: 1225 |
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yup , I've had that before. A kid at the local high school rebuilt the straight six in his Granada. he had no oil pressure upon start up. the local machine shop had removed the plug when he boiled the block. I hadn't had to many sixes apart, but if I remember correctly pull the distributor and try priming the engine with an oilpump drive shaft.if the pump picks up prime and you have a fliud loss you should still feel a little resistance with your drill. if you do than it's at least got the prime. if you have prime than you have to start looking for the pressure loss. it's easier to pull the front cover than the pan. I don' think you be able to hear any fliud loss even with the engine off and priming with an electric drill.
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John 75Gran Torino 4spd
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unlovedford
Senior Member Joined: 17-December-2010 Location: Tennessee Status: Offline Points: 10142 |
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John, where is this plug located under the timing cover? Thanks for all the input!
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Joe
1972 Mom's Squire Wagon 1972 Torino Wagon 1976 Torino 1968 Cougar XR7-First batch 1972 Torino 460 1989 BroncoII/Jeeps/Titanimous Popeye and Brutus (Rams) |
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75GranMan
Senior Member Joined: 05-April-2011 Location: Colchester, CT Status: Offline Points: 1225 |
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Joe, man that was a long time ago. Let me see if I can find a picture. it was definitely under the front cover. I don't remember if it was welch or threaded plug.
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John 75Gran Torino 4spd
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unlovedford
Senior Member Joined: 17-December-2010 Location: Tennessee Status: Offline Points: 10142 |
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The engine is brand new. Pulled the valve cover - shiny and clean inside.
Found the first issue. Pulled the distributor and guess what? No oil pump rod from the distributor to the oil pump. Pulled the plugs and shined a light down the cylinders. Pistons are brand new and clean as a pin. Have a rod on order from O'Reilly's, be here Saturday. I'll install that and see if it will prime. Here's a picture of the inside. |
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Joe
1972 Mom's Squire Wagon 1972 Torino Wagon 1976 Torino 1968 Cougar XR7-First batch 1972 Torino 460 1989 BroncoII/Jeeps/Titanimous Popeye and Brutus (Rams) |
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californiajohnny
Moderator Group Joined: 05-October-2013 Location: winlock, wa Status: Offline Points: 14609 |
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joe, i had a feeling that might be the case, i've seen that a few times (so called "certified mechanics" that can't find their a$$ with both hands) make sure you have the keeper thing on right so that the new one don't get pulled out if you remove the dist. (it should be against the block on the pump side)
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JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE 74 VETTE CUSTOM 90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED 77 CELICA CUSTOM 75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED 79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED 75 VEGA V6 5 SPD 70 CHEV C10 P/U 68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION |
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75GranMan
Senior Member Joined: 05-April-2011 Location: Colchester, CT Status: Offline Points: 1225 |
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Joe, here's the link...At the 8:50 mark
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John 75Gran Torino 4spd
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75GranMan
Senior Member Joined: 05-April-2011 Location: Colchester, CT Status: Offline Points: 1225 |
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Didn't read what you found....or didn't find! I hope that thing hadn't been run without the drive!
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John 75Gran Torino 4spd
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unlovedford
Senior Member Joined: 17-December-2010 Location: Tennessee Status: Offline Points: 10142 |
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He said they started it but immediately shut it off when the pressure didn't come up. Hopefully.
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Joe
1972 Mom's Squire Wagon 1972 Torino Wagon 1976 Torino 1968 Cougar XR7-First batch 1972 Torino 460 1989 BroncoII/Jeeps/Titanimous Popeye and Brutus (Rams) |
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californiajohnny
Moderator Group Joined: 05-October-2013 Location: winlock, wa Status: Offline Points: 14609 |
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if that's 100% true you might be OK (hopefully they didn't rev it up for several minutes waiting to build pressure! if you know what i mean!)
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JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE 74 VETTE CUSTOM 90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED 77 CELICA CUSTOM 75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED 79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED 75 VEGA V6 5 SPD 70 CHEV C10 P/U 68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION |
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unlovedford
Senior Member Joined: 17-December-2010 Location: Tennessee Status: Offline Points: 10142 |
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John, thanks! I will check that if the rod does not fix the issue. Hopefully, it will.
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Joe
1972 Mom's Squire Wagon 1972 Torino Wagon 1976 Torino 1968 Cougar XR7-First batch 1972 Torino 460 1989 BroncoII/Jeeps/Titanimous Popeye and Brutus (Rams) |
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antlerfiend
Senior Member Joined: 14-June-2010 Location: Louisville,KY Status: Offline Points: 3023 |
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It should. Can't drive the pump without it.
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Alex
72 GTS (Morgan's Baby) 68 CJ Drag Car Clone 65 Mustang (first car) 77 LTD II (Drag Car) 78 Mustang II V6 4 speed |
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antlerfiend
Senior Member Joined: 14-June-2010 Location: Louisville,KY Status: Offline Points: 3023 |
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Hell, the rod is probably in the oil pan. They probably missed the oil pump and it dropped on down.
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Alex
72 GTS (Morgan's Baby) 68 CJ Drag Car Clone 65 Mustang (first car) 77 LTD II (Drag Car) 78 Mustang II V6 4 speed |
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unlovedford
Senior Member Joined: 17-December-2010 Location: Tennessee Status: Offline Points: 10142 |
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The way the engine is made, it would be awfully difficult to drop it into the pan. I'm thinking that someone was either absentminded or did it on purpose. Either way, we'll see on Saturday. If it does pressure up with the rod on a drill, I'll try to start it.
Edited by unlovedford - 14-August-2014 at 3:18AM |
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Joe
1972 Mom's Squire Wagon 1972 Torino Wagon 1976 Torino 1968 Cougar XR7-First batch 1972 Torino 460 1989 BroncoII/Jeeps/Titanimous Popeye and Brutus (Rams) |
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antlerfiend
Senior Member Joined: 14-June-2010 Location: Louisville,KY Status: Offline Points: 3023 |
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Cool
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Alex
72 GTS (Morgan's Baby) 68 CJ Drag Car Clone 65 Mustang (first car) 77 LTD II (Drag Car) 78 Mustang II V6 4 speed |
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unlovedford
Senior Member Joined: 17-December-2010 Location: Tennessee Status: Offline Points: 10142 |
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Installed the pump driveshaft, attached a drill and the oil blew right out of the distributor hole. Slow the drill down and you can see oil swirling around in the hole. Something is happening down there, but no oil getting up to the rockers, so I guess I'll pull the front cover and see about the plug.
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Joe
1972 Mom's Squire Wagon 1972 Torino Wagon 1976 Torino 1968 Cougar XR7-First batch 1972 Torino 460 1989 BroncoII/Jeeps/Titanimous Popeye and Brutus (Rams) |
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Big Bird
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Some engines lube the distributor shaft off the lifter gallery. if the distributor isn't in, no oil to top end. I can't say whether this applies to small ford 6 though...
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"What we do in full frontal view, is more honest than your cleaned-up mind."
Randy 1979 T-Bird 2005 F-150 STX RCSB 4.6, 3.55 LSD How the Heck does a REGULAR CAB SHORTBED weigh over 5200 pounds? |
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californiajohnny
Moderator Group Joined: 05-October-2013 Location: winlock, wa Status: Offline Points: 14609 |
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randy's right! most engines the oil must flow around the dist. housing to plug the big hole so oil feeds on through the system. (with oil just dumping back down through that big hole , you can't build any pressure to fill the system) put your dist. in and try it, you should have oil flowing throughout the entire system in about 5-10 seconds, maybe a little longer for the lifters if they have air in them, and /or you could do what i did last night on one of my cars--- screw in a temporary oil gauge into the block to check true pressure ( my light came on and it had plenty of oil i feared the pump quit! nope the sending unit took a sh*t! ) much relieved that's all it was !!!
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JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE 74 VETTE CUSTOM 90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED 77 CELICA CUSTOM 75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED 79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED 75 VEGA V6 5 SPD 70 CHEV C10 P/U 68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION |
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unlovedford
Senior Member Joined: 17-December-2010 Location: Tennessee Status: Offline Points: 10142 |
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Left the valve cover off, installed the distributor, pulled the plugs out, removed the coil lead. Cranked the engine with the starter for 30 seconds (spinning faster with no plugs). Not a drop came up to the head. I'm a bit hesitant to try running it if there is no oil going up to the galley. Every engine I've built had the lifters soaking, pump primed, and everything lubed before assembly. no issues. This has been sitting a long time without ever being run. Could it need to run to get the lifters pumped up enough to feed the push rods? If I do and it starts pumping, then all is good. If not, then I've done some damage.
After using the drill, I can hear oil dripping down from inside the block - not a steady "pouring" sound in the timing chain area. |
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Joe
1972 Mom's Squire Wagon 1972 Torino Wagon 1976 Torino 1968 Cougar XR7-First batch 1972 Torino 460 1989 BroncoII/Jeeps/Titanimous Popeye and Brutus (Rams) |
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californiajohnny
Moderator Group Joined: 05-October-2013 Location: winlock, wa Status: Offline Points: 14609 |
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remove the sending unit and plumb in a temporary oil gauge, crank the engine again and see if you are getting some pressure on the gauge, that will tell you if it's building pressure in the system if you get pressure then it will just take some more turning over or running to get the lifters pumped up and then fill through the push rods and rockers. all those cars i'm sure you have an extra aftermarket oil gauge laying around, with the fittings and plastic line hook it up temp. and set it somewhere so you can see it while cranking and or running. when you're done just remove it and put the sender back in
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JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE 74 VETTE CUSTOM 90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED 77 CELICA CUSTOM 75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED 79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED 75 VEGA V6 5 SPD 70 CHEV C10 P/U 68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION |
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californiajohnny
Moderator Group Joined: 05-October-2013 Location: winlock, wa Status: Offline Points: 14609 |
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thinking about it, cranking may not be fast enough to get much pressure showing on the gauge, but 5 or 10 seconds running the gauge should suddenly jump up with pressure, if not then something's wrong like the plug thing???
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JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE 74 VETTE CUSTOM 90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED 77 CELICA CUSTOM 75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED 79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED 75 VEGA V6 5 SPD 70 CHEV C10 P/U 68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION |
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dave302
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The back/rear of this 1954 through 1964 ford inline six cylinder block has an NPT Type of oil gallery plug installed on it. Maybe this is missing on your engine?
Edited by dave302 - 26-August-2014 at 8:00PM |
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dave302
Senior Member Joined: 08-October-2009 Location: usa Status: Offline Points: 3171 |
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The rear/back of this 1997 through 1998 ford V6 engine has two NPT Type of oil galley plugs.
Edited by dave302 - 26-August-2014 at 10:09PM |
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