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Big Bird View Drop Down
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    Posted: 19-November-2017 at 2:51PM
in a perfect world, both heads would be matched, with proper piston and cam selection for a planned build. Sometimes, you use what you got. If it works, it works.
My distributor is an A1, for the same application I posted.
The above post should be read in a "Grumpy Old Man" voice.
Almost forgot: "Get off my lawn!!!"
Randy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-November-2017 at 12:13PM
It sounds like a bit of a hodge podge of parts on that engine.  You might want to find out the combustion chamber size to make sure that both heads are the same.
 
I have used a Cardone rebuild distributor before.  It worked fine and I would buy one again. 
Vince

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Bird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-November-2017 at 9:58AM
Cardone is a common rebuilder over here.
Cardone and A1 are the same company, and I think that they may operate under a few other names.
As far as 351w heads go, in the mid-70s, ford started using the same head for 302 and 351, with a larger bolt hole on 351. Earlier 351 heads had bigger combustion chambers, but not by much.
The above post should be read in a "Grumpy Old Man" voice.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote T-Bird_79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-November-2017 at 7:21AM
Originally posted by Big Bird Big Bird wrote:

The distributor you will need for that engine the way it sits is one for a 1985 Mustang GT with Manual transmission. That will be a duraspark distributor with a roller-cam compatible drive gear.

Thanks!
How do You think, is this distributor OK in terms of quality?
http://www.cardone.com/Products/Product-Detail?productId=302831&p=rock&jsn=470
It is remanufactured distributor with steel gear.

Andris
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote T-Bird_79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-November-2017 at 7:10AM
Originally posted by Big Bird Big Bird wrote:

Your rockers all look like pedestal mounts. It could be that someone lost a set of the bolts and just used studs. I don't see a "E6" or "E7" on either head, and based on the intake, I would guess you have a 1985 CFI engine. CFI used an aluminum intake that a 2BBL carb will bolt up to. Some/Many 1985 engines still had the Mechanical fuel pump mounting provisions with a block-off plate. If it was from an 1985 mustang with manual trans, it would have a mechanical fuel pump, but would have a 4BBL carb/intake and a Duraspark distributor.
As far as port size mismatch, it may not be as bad as you think. Ports are at different angles when looking at the engine and manifold, and they look different. Try putting the intake gaskets up to the ports and line them up with the bolt holes. If they are different, you need intake gaskets that fit the BIGGER opening or you will have a vacuum leak.
Very important question:
Did you check/record your firing order before taking everything apart?
H.O. cams use a different firing order than non-H.O. Both were used in roller cam engines.
Get that wrong, and the engine will not run correctly.

Thanks for Your advice, Randy!
I've made a visit to garage to search for numbers on heads and block. Unfortunately I couldn't see a casting number on engine block, because a starter has to be removed to see the number. But! I was able to find numbers on heads: left head is D5AE, which decodes as 1975-1977 351W head, right head is E8JL, which means a 1988 marine/industrial engine head ShockedCensored. I'm starting to love the guy, who put this engine together, more and moreHug. After these "discoveries", I can't wait to take the starter off and see whats there on block.
Took a pictures of the intake gasket on the head and on the intake:





Isn't this mismatch of the port sizes too big? Maybe it has something to do with the fact, that the heads are from 351? I've also read somewhere on internet, that, if you put a 351 heads on 302, you have to mill the heads, otherwise you will lose compression ratio. Is this correct?
Managed to find a correct Duraspark module almost locally-in England Smile, so I had to buy it


Before taking off a distributor, I've recorded a firing order and it is ordinary 15426378.
That's all for now.
Thanks for reading and any thoughts are appreciated!

Andris
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Bird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-November-2017 at 12:00PM
The distributor you will need for that engine the way it sits is one for a 1985 Mustang GT with Manual transmission. That will be a duraspark distributor with a roller-cam compatible drive gear.
The above post should be read in a "Grumpy Old Man" voice.
Almost forgot: "Get off my lawn!!!"
Randy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Bird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-November-2017 at 11:50AM
Your rockers all look like pedestal mounts. It could be that someone lost a set of the bolts and just used studs. I don't see a "E6" or "E7" on either head, and based on the intake, I would guess you have a 1985 CFI engine. CFI used an aluminum intake that a 2BBL carb will bolt up to. Some/Many 1985 engines still had the Mechanical fuel pump mounting provisions with a block-off plate. If it was from an 1985 mustang with manual trans, it would have a mechanical fuel pump, but would have a 4BBL carb/intake and a Duraspark distributor.
As far as port size mismatch, it may not be as bad as you think. Ports are at different angles when looking at the engine and manifold, and they look different. Try putting the intake gaskets up to the ports and line them up with the bolt holes. If they are different, you need intake gaskets that fit the BIGGER opening or you will have a vacuum leak.
Very important question:
Did you check/record your firing order before taking everything apart?
H.O. cams use a different firing order than non-H.O. Both were used in roller cam engines.
Get that wrong, and the engine will not run correctly.


Edited by Big Bird - 13-November-2017 at 11:53AM
The above post should be read in a "Grumpy Old Man" voice.
Almost forgot: "Get off my lawn!!!"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote T-Bird_79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-November-2017 at 8:19AM
Originally posted by 72FordGTS 72FordGTS wrote:

What are the casting numbers on the heads and block?  It sounds like the engine might be pieced together from multiple engines.  I am assuming Ford V8 parts aren't common in your area, so maybe that's why you ended parts from multiple engines.
It sounds like you might need to a total tear down on the engine, and possibly rebuild.  Or I guess you could try to find another small block Ford to replace it with (if that's possible in you area?).  I am sure the members here could help you out if you try to teardown and rebuild if you decided to go that route.

Next time in garage I will try to find numbers on block and heads. Now it seems, that it's an EFI engine, which has been "modified" to accept carb and mechanical fuel pump.
Most likely I will try to repair the existing engine, because, I am afraid, even if I could find another engine here, it will be the same late model type in unknown condition.
There's no hurry, so I will move further step by step: for now I'm waiting for correct ignition and fuel system parts (thanks to forum membersThumbs Up), now, when i know, that it's a roller motor, I can order a correct distributor. When I will have all these parts, I want to check, that everything works together and then proceed to removing and disassembling of the engine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-November-2017 at 2:27AM
What are the casting numbers on the heads and block?  It sounds like the engine might be pieced together from multiple engines.  I am assuming Ford V8 parts aren't common in your area, so maybe that's why you ended parts from multiple engines.
It sounds like you might need to a total tear down on the engine, and possibly rebuild.  Or I guess you could try to find another small block Ford to replace it with (if that's possible in you area?).  I am sure the members here could help you out if you try to teardown and rebuild if you decided to go that route.
Vince

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote T-Bird_79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-November-2017 at 10:26PM
Compression is low on all cylinders, so I think this is not a head gaskets related case.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-November-2017 at 3:14PM
hmm, probably was a bad connection in the wiring, when you plugged it back in it scraped a new connection? oil pressure is ok but compression sounds real low! is it low on all cylinders? or just a couple next to each other??
JOHN
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote T-Bird_79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-November-2017 at 9:22AM
So, a little update.

Finally managed to measure oil and compression pressure. Good news is that oil pressure cold at idle is 44 psi, at medium RPM is 58 psi, when hot drops to 29 psi at idle and to 45 psi at RPM. I think that is acceptable? Bad news is that compression pressure is 58 psi to 73 psi, no difference cold or hot. Tried to add oil in cylinders and remeasure. With oil compression pressure jumped to 132-147 psi. Most likely this means worn/ seized/ broken piston rings, in worst case worn cylinders/ pistons?Cry

So the plan for now is to get all missing ignition parts, carburettor, install this all on engine, restore ignition wiring and check, that it all works. After that, I will take off front clip, because I have to repair rusted radiator support, there's no chance I can pass technical control with so badly rusted support and without front end it will be much easier to pull the engine and transmission.

Made one last test drive, as expected transmission didn't shift at all without rod, that connects carburettor to transmission, but anyway it was a fantastic feel to drive this car: V8 sound (thanks to almost non existent exhaust Thumbs Up), steering that is so light, that it almost feels like wheels are not connected to steering wheel and the feel how the car floats over the bumps.


Yes, that's a high-tech temporary fuel tank in front of left headlight!Big smile

So, after driving around, finally took off the intake, to see is there flat or roller lifters.



Turned out that there is roller lifters. Found a part/ casting number on intake and Google says it's from a '79 Ford Mustang. So there's a question: is this intake usable? I personally like the fact, that it's aluminum and not cast iron. One strange thing I noticed is that the intake ports in heads are much larger than those on intake. Is this OK? Will this work?



Took off valve covers and noticed some differences on heads too: one head has studs for rockers, on other head there's a bolts. Does this mean, that one head was replaced with the not exactly matching head? Unfortunately I couldn't find any part numbers on heads, maybe I didn't look at the right places?



Another good news is that the car is starting to repair itself (like a Christine Shocked): took off the instrument cluster just to see what's with the dash wiring, put it back on (did no repairs, just put it back), connected back battery, switched ON ignition and wipers parked! Tried to switch them on and they work! Seems, that only intermittent feature don't work, but otherwise there are both speeds and after switching off they park in their place. After so many years I thought, that they MUST be totally rusted and stuck. After starting the engine, noticed, that the oil pressure gauge is working, and after heating up, a temperature gauge too. And a most miraculous thing is, that the ignition switch had repaired itself too, and now the car can be started without jumping wires.Clap

Thanks for reading!



Edited by T-Bird_79 - 12-November-2017 at 9:26AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote T-Bird_79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-October-2017 at 11:12AM

So it was a busy summer and not much has been done. Still there’s some little progress.

Managed to find Wiring and Vacuum diagrams for reasonable price.



Last time the car was started by previous owner by jumping some wires under the hood, so I tried to figure out why it is so and why he said, that it can’t be started by ignition switch. It turned out, that the ignition could be switched ON, but in the  START position 12V disappear on ignition coil. Didn’t look at it more closely yet, but it seems like ignition switch problem. So for now I turn the ignition switch on and start the engine by jumping starter solenoid. Found and deleted a top secret anti-theft switch (that’s those two light blue wires going through firewall).


On distributor wiring plug noticed, that the two wires, that should go to engine control module are simply cutted off.


From all the electrical equipment only tachometer, door ajar warning light and blower fan low speed (which can’t be switched off) are working.

To my big surprise, the car still has some brakes and it can move (at least in and out of garage) under it’s own power.

At one point get tired of constantly flat tires of three different sizes. Shop manual says, that the original tire size is HR78x15. Tried to find matching modern tire size and it’s approximately 215/80R15 or 225/75R15 or 235/70R15. The latter two seem a bit wide for 6 inch rim, so for now I bought a used 215/75R15 Michelin tires, just to see do they look OK on these rims and on car. Two wheels where badly rusted on hubs, so it was a big pain to take them off. Made a minor repair to one of the rims.



Tried to find some numbers on intake. This is the only numbers I could see. Is this manufacturing date, or some kinda part number?


Finally made a small list of parts, that I need (for a start). It can be found here:

http://forum.grantorinosport.org/parts-for-79-thunderbird_topic16636.html

If anyone has something from this list, or knows where to find one of these parts, please let me know.

Thank You!



Edited by T-Bird_79 - 18-October-2017 at 11:17AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote torino335 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-May-2017 at 11:51AM
looks 85-89 engine,that dist is not a good one to have,they go out alot,my 84 bronco with a 302 had that dist with a 2 bbl carb,you have alot of mis matched parts,can you get some pictures of numbers off intake,heads exhaust,would could get the date close if not to the year,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Bird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-May-2017 at 11:34AM
Carb does bolt to TBI intake, and some of the TBI intakes are a fairly decent 2V aluminum intake.
Existing coil not correct for Duraspark but might work.
If it is a C6, it's not original to the car your door tag has "X" for a trans code, which is FMX trans.
FMX will have an aluminum Bellhousing and tailshaft and (Except for a couple weird units) an iron centersection.
C6 is all aluminum, and the bellhousing is not removable.
The above post should be read in a "Grumpy Old Man" voice.
Almost forgot: "Get off my lawn!!!"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote T-Bird_79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-May-2017 at 10:36AM
Thanks for all your advice!!! There's no Map sensor, no coolant temp.sensor for ECM, no TPS, so there's no way that TFI module knows it should advance or retard timing. So it just starts and runs with static timing advance. So to get it work properly I have to:
1. Take off intake and see is there roller lifters or no.
2. Find Duraspark module and distributor. Will the existing coil work with Duraspark, or I need a coil from Duraspark system too?
3. Restore wiring to ignition module.
Next stupid question: Carburettor bolts to TBI intake with no problems? Bolt patterns are the same?
About engine change: now when I think of all this, I think I can tell how it happened (not 100% sure, as I was not there, but I think it was like this). Previous owner sold to someone 351 engine from this car and installed a 302 TBI engine from LTD Crown Victoria, without taking much care of making it work properly. LTD CrownVic without engine is still in his yard.Wink
By the way I looked at transmission, and I think it's a C6. At least it's not a AOD from the same CrownVic.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Bird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-May-2017 at 5:27AM
Without a MAP sensor, no "Vacuum" advance. The TFI adds/subtracts timing like a "real" computer, but needs it's sensors.
Without being able to go through this "Hands-on" it's hard to tell what is and isn't connected/working properly. It's an odd situation, one that was more complicated than just using the correct parts.
Best guess would be the current engine was swapped in in Europe. The car was a 351 car (W or M?, who knows) A 351M distributor won't work, and a 351W isn't SUPPOSED to, (Swap oil pump, oil pump drive, and distributor, and then it does.)
So someone used what they had and made it work. 
The above post should be read in a "Grumpy Old Man" voice.
Almost forgot: "Get off my lawn!!!"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-May-2017 at 1:22PM

Correct me if I am wrong, but would a TFI distributor still fire without a computer, but have no way to advance or retard the timing?  So it'd work but the timing would be totally static? 

I think you need to go back to a stock DuraSpark distributor setup to get this to run properly.
Vince

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Bird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-May-2017 at 1:12PM
That distributor is a TFI (Thick Film Ignition) unit. it's designed to work with fuel injection. The little black module is the "Brain" for it.  It has no mechanical or vacuum advance. It needs a vacuum sensor and a few other inputs to work. I've never seen anyone make one work without the EFI. It was not used on any carborated engine. Your fender picture shows where the tie-ins were made, and since it's (more or less) self contained, someone made it work.
You would need to fix the harness where the ties were made, add a Module, and change the distributor to go back to stock. Easiest way to tell whether it has roller lifters is to take the intake off.
Roller cams didn't show up until 1985, so there are TBI (Throttle Body Injection) engines with flat tappet cams and TFI ignitions. (And it may be a Franken-motor as well)
If it runs and works well, it may be simpler to leave it (Tidy up the wiring).
If it won't do much more than start... that's the first place I would look at re-doing.
The above post should be read in a "Grumpy Old Man" voice.
Almost forgot: "Get off my lawn!!!"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote T-Bird_79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-May-2017 at 11:01AM
Originally posted by Big Bird Big Bird wrote:

I missed your question about ignition.
Can you get a better picture of the distributor? And the drivers inner fender?
There should be a aluminum ignition module about 5 inches by 5 inches on the driver's side inner fender (where all the little colored wires are now).
For the distributor, If it has a long grey rectangle along one side of the body and no vacuum advance, it's a TFI distributor and will not work.
If so, you need a duraspark distributor.
If you need to change that, you need to find out if the engine has a factory roller lifter cam.
Those need a steel distributor gear. Easiest parts-store answer is a distributor for a 1985 mustang GT with a manual transmission.

Pictures of distributor and ignition coil:








So I guess I need correct distributor, ignition coil and ignition module? If I take out current distributor, can I determine is there a lifter cam by looking at distributor gear? If I buy distributor from Mustang GT, I must have ignition module from Mustang or Duraspark module will work too?
Strangest thing is that the engine can be started, so I think distributor and coil is somehow rewired to work without computer.
Here's the air cleaner that I have:





This air cleaner doesn't fit my carburetor very well, I think it is from engine with trottle body injection system?
I always wondered, what's the decals on trunk lid:



So Google helped me and I've found out that this is Centroplex Ford dealership decal in Killeen, TX. As the car's DSO code is 52, which is Dallas, I am pretty sure, that the car was sold new in Centroplex Ford, Killeen, TX.



Edited by T-Bird_79 - 24-May-2017 at 11:06AM
Andris
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