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Seating a C6 Torque converter

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72FordGTS View Drop Down
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    Posted: 13-October-2018 at 12:06PM
The Transtar unit hadn't shipped yet, so we tried it out after the pump was fixed and it was okay. So I am just going to use it.  The guys on the transmission forum seem to think it's a decent converter, and I think the stall speed should be just right.
Vince

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-October-2018 at 3:32PM
what converter now?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72GTS351CJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-October-2018 at 2:13PM
Wow! 1 little mistake caused so much aggravation. Glad its done
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-October-2018 at 2:10PM
Clap crap if you'd have mentioned the straight edge part... i 'd have told you something's wrong at the tranny not the engine side of things... that much i do know. glad you got it figured out


Edited by californiajohnny - 12-October-2018 at 6:31PM
JOHN
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-October-2018 at 2:04PM
So to update this thread, it's all fixed. I stopped by the transmission guy's place this week and he fixed it immediately.  He had a trick to pulling the front pump without removing any other parts, so it took him literally less than 10 minutes to fix the gear.  He was very apologetic about the mistake.  He told me that when he was finishing up the transmission he had just had shoulder surgery and so he had a helper with him.  He said he told the helper to install the gears but he trusted he knew the correct way, which he obviously didn't.
In any case with the gear flipped around, the TC seated further back into the transmission and I had about 1.1" to the mounting pads.  I checked it on the engine and the clearance was within Broader's specs, being .110".   
 
For anyone reading this in the future, the converter pilot should not hit a straight edge across the bell housing if the pump gear is installed correctly.  If the pump gear is installed backwards, like mine was, the converter pilot sticks out just beyond a straight edge across the bell housing. 
 
Thanks for all the help!
Vince

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mkshelton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-October-2018 at 1:35PM
Kudos for being patient and not just git r dun
"Sometimes I wonder if I'm actually UNinventing the wheel"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72GTS351CJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-October-2018 at 4:06AM
Glad its figured out. I've been following this for 2 weeks now
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-October-2018 at 3:27PM
Vince,
 First, glad to hear you got it figured out, at least it is a relatively easy fix. That said and not trying to throw up any red flags or darts at your trans builder, but I would want him to go over that trans with a fine toothed comb and verify any and all necessary clearances since he now has to re-open it(pull stator/pump and oil pan). While the pump/stator is out have your builder to make sure the pump bushing is installed in the correct orientation, here's an image:
Image result for ford c6 pump bushing
 
Good luck and hopefully 2nd times the charm and a 3rd trip isn't required.
 


Edited by aquartlow - 07-October-2018 at 3:28PM
www.supermotors.net/22468
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-October-2018 at 3:05PM
Shocked yeah that would make a difference!!! that's why you didn't feel the 3rd drop in Wink
JOHN
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-October-2018 at 2:51PM
meet me in Chicago, bang! bang!

kudos for figuring it out and not 'sending it'
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-October-2018 at 2:38PM
So I think I figure out the problem with the transmission.  After positing on the transmission forum, they were able to help me examine the pump (without disassembly) and it looks like the pump gear might be in backwards.  So Todd gets bonus points for making that call way back at the start of the tread.
When I looked really closely with a light, I could see the chamfered edge (circled in red) on the gear is on the back side of the gear, not the front side like it should be.  When I talked to my builder last week he did say at one point "Maybe I installed the gear backwards by accident."  So, I will have to bring it back to him and have him correct it.  And hopefully this fixes the problem.
 
 
Now that I sent back the Transtar TC, does anyone have any recommendations?  I could get another Transstar, or I know I can get B&M or TCI locally from the speed shop.  I also could get a Broader converter, I sent him an email for a recommendation.
Vince

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-October-2018 at 1:01PM
it'd cost more to send mine from here than it would to buy a new Holesh*t there

glad you found a good local guy that didn't just tell you to P off!

i still suspect the flex is Dong Wang spec
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-October-2018 at 12:21PM
Originally posted by aquartlow aquartlow wrote:

Vince,
 Try these guys for C6 info, may be helpful. I have received great info from members Gregaust and Stuart40a as well as others. Hope this helps.
 
Thanks Todd!  I was looking for that forum.  It seems to have changed format since I used it last.
Originally posted by Rockatansky Rockatansky wrote:

the length of the flats are the same, seems the end of the flat is where the converter stops going into the pump?

also check how the input shaft is able to engage the converter, measure from the snout to the end of the input shaft in each converter ...
spitballing but you might find something
 
Thanks Rock, I appreciate your help. 
 
I had the day off work today so I took the trans and both converters to my builder.  He confirmed, I did have it seated correctly.  We took a bunch of measurements and the Transtar unit doesn't fit as well as my old factory unit.  He thinks the new TC was out on a few dimensions (he pulled the input shaft and fit it into both converters too).  The factory TC does fit a bit better but I reinstalled it to the engine and flex and I maybe have .020 clearance using the stud for measurement. My builder agreed it's too tight and thought it was strange since most of the parts were used together from before.
 
So the Transtar converter is going back.  I sent an email to Broader and see if he has one that will work. His are pricey, but I know they are good good.    I may be able to try out a TCI unit from the local speed shop too. 
 
I will post on the trans forum to see if they have any ideas too.  Thanks for the help guys. 
Vince

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-October-2018 at 10:50AM
the length of the flats are the same, seems the end of the flat is where the converter stops going into the pump?

also check how the input shaft is able to engage the converter, measure from the snout to the end of the input shaft in each converter ...

spitballing but you might find something


Edited by Rockatansky - 05-October-2018 at 10:51AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-October-2018 at 10:20AM
Vince,
 Try these guys for C6 info, may be helpful. I have received great info from members Gregaust and Stuart40a as well as others. Hope this helps.
www.supermotors.net/22468
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-October-2018 at 12:13AM
I checked the flats. They look good on both TCs. I think they are fully seating, but for whatever reason my transmission just won't seat as deep as it should. If my trans builder can't figure it out, I might call Broader.

Thanks for the offer on the B&M. I will let you know if I need it.
Vince

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-October-2018 at 1:06PM
look at the flats on the snout hubs ;)

i have a B&M Holeshot here i'll probably never use


Edited by Rockatansky - 04-October-2018 at 1:11PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-October-2018 at 11:51AM
Yeah, I still have the original TC.  They are pretty much identical stand them on the snouts.  I did try to reseat the original TC and it is tighter in the bell housing than my new converter for my fingers.  I can't get my finger tips with the OEM unit, but I can just get the tips with this Transtar converter.  It seems though that it's just the size of the "donut" is slightly smaller on the new one, because when I measured the mounting pads to the bell housing they were with in 20 thousands of each, and both were under an inch.
I pulled out the instructions from my Broader kit and he does talk about torque converter clearances.  Here is what he says:  "When you're ready to install your transmission, you must check your converter to flex plate clearance.  Failure to make this check is the responsibility of the installer.  Improper clearance can lead to transmission and/or converter failure.  You will have no one to blame but yourself"
 
He goes on to say the best way to measure the clearance is to measure a TC stud with a micrometer or dial caliper before the nuts are installed.  Then snug the nuts and measure the stud length again.  "The difference between the two measurements is the clearance.  The clearance should be between .080" and .190".  If the clearance is larger, you can place washers between the flex place and the converter on the studs. If it is too tight, contact the converter builder for their advice."
 
So reading this, I have 0 clearance which is obviously a no-no.  I just wish he offered a better solution for too little clearance, too much would be easy to fix.
 
I called the trans builder again and I am going to have him look over the transmission and check my converter install.  If it all checks out, I think I either have to find a flex plate with more clearance or change my converter.  I think the TCI flex may offer a bit more clearance, and it looks like  a 164 tooth C4 flex has an offset that would give me more clearance.  I am not sure if I can return this converter anymore, since I did put some fluid in it.  I am also not sure how good a Transtar converter is.  My builder said he used them all the time and hasn't had issues, but his shop was mostly stock rebuilds.  Hopefully I can get this sorted out sooner than later and finally get this install done.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-October-2018 at 2:53PM
do you still have the original converter?

set them side by side upside down on their snouts and compare the stud pad heights
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-October-2018 at 9:43AM
So to update, I got a factory Ford C6 flexplate from a 302 to test for fit. I tried it out and it is the exact same as the aftermarket plate. I can wiggle the studs until I snug the bell housing bolts and then it's too tight to wiggle.

I also tried seating the converter with the rubber mallet and it didn't move at all. So I am thinking the problem is likely the transmission.

Is there any reason the converter wouldn't seat as far back as it should? I don't know what the best course of action is from here. I am pretty sure I could use a c4 style flex to gain the clearance but I am concerned that there may be an issue with the trans build causing the converter to sit out too far.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-October-2018 at 12:36AM
Originally posted by californiajohnny californiajohnny wrote:

hmm, that could be a possibility being all new... could be a little tight and or a burr on the new surfaces???
 
I will inspect for a bur when I take it apart.  He mentioned something about the fact that I might not be fully seated into the pump drive.  He just told me that it is the TC not being seated 99% of the time.
Originally posted by Rockatansky Rockatansky wrote:

351C is 28.x imbalance same as 302C, 351M, 400 and 351W

and Windsor based 302 before they changed to 50 oz
 
That's what I thought.  So I am not sure why the Pioneer guy said that there is a different weight between the 351C and 351M/400 flexplates?  I think he just didn't want to answer my questions or didn't know the answer. 
 
I did find this thread which shows that the TCI flexplate has the mounting pads closer to the engine.  So it might work.  Form looking at Summit's website, it seems to be a pretty universal fit, fits the C4, C6, and the Windsor and 335 series engines.  Maybe that's why it has more spacing, so it fits all applications.  If I can do a return, I might try it out.  Too bad it's so pricey.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-October-2018 at 2:03PM
351C is 28.x imbalance same as 302C, 351M, 400 and 351W

and Windsor based 302 before they changed to 50 oz


Edited by Rockatansky - 01-October-2018 at 2:04PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-October-2018 at 12:10PM
hmm, that could be a possibility being all new... could be a little tight and or a burr on the new surfaces???
JOHN
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74 VETTE CUSTOM
90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED
77 CELICA CUSTOM
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79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED
75 VEGA V6 5 SPD
70 CHEV C10 P/U
68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-October-2018 at 11:45AM
So I called my transmission guy and he said there needs to be play. His only suggestion was that the converter may have a hard time seating in the pump drive so to tap the pilot with a rubber mallet to see if it will go in any further. Otherwise he says that it's probably the flex plate.

I contacted Pioneer out of curiosity to see the difference between the FRA201 AND FRA202 plates. He claims the only difference is the weight not the offset? I thought 351C and 351M/400 both used a 28 oz weight?

Anyway I will pull it apart when I have time and check it again.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-September-2018 at 3:30PM
yeah that's the thing i've always disliked about ford... the lack of interchangeability or confusion!Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-September-2018 at 2:20PM
multiply the confabulation, converter offset, ring gear offset and drain plug hole

what else ... weights as he pointed out, 50oz, 28oz, none

and don't forget converter bolt pattern, 10.5" and 11.4 for 'same' applications

when i had access to the pile-O-flex's we determined that the AOD's were also the same as the FMX / C6's

things must change often & w/o notice in the Ford engineering section
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-September-2018 at 2:19PM
I realize that it was a different application, just showing the so many variations Ford had in this stuff!  Just curious too if the 351C had a different offset from the 400, which may give me some more play.  the OEM replacement shows a 400 a 201 and the 351C a 202 flexplate.  
Then you look at the hi-po aftermarket stuff and they are the same for all small blocks with 28oz weights.  289-400, same listings.  Ford NEVER makes anything easy....
 
I will make some calls, and I in all likelihood will have to separate it again. I will update later. Thanks for all the advice..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-September-2018 at 2:04PM
 he talks about swapping an AOD... when i did mine, only difference i noticed was the drain plug was on the opposite side of the stud 302/aod vs 531w/fmx which he didn't even mention...
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74 VETTE CUSTOM
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77 CELICA CUSTOM
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70 CHEV C10 P/U
68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-September-2018 at 1:54PM
leave it to Ford to NOT standardize the crank flange to rear block face offset,

i'm sure it was good for the economy though ...

how do you feel about getting an offset dimension if you separate it again?

from the block plate would be fine :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-September-2018 at 1:45PM

I am pretty sure my local guy is good on returns.  I may even pick his brain as he has build all kinds of engines and cars over the years. 

Why is there a difference for a 351M/400 flex to a 351C?  Both have the same diameter and counter weight?  So what's the difference?
 
This video shows some difference in the Ford flexplates, although not specifically relevant to my situation.
 


Edited by 72FordGTS - 30-September-2018 at 1:47PM
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