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Ranchero upgrade???

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Dan the ranchero man View Drop Down
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    Posted: 21-September-2012 at 12:15PM
I have been tossing the idea around (when money allows) to convert my 74 rancheros 460 from the carter 650 to fuel injection. I was looking into the MSD 2900 system. The complete set up is around $2200 ranchero Buck$. Checked out the video and it look pretty easy to set up. I would also like to convert to an overdrive transmission. The idea is to make the car a bit more practical and relible to drive. Now the the kid's are getting older I want to take my wife and do some big time road trips. We have used the car to go many places already and it's not like like the car has any trouble. It is just very expensive to "feed the beast". If I could make the mileage better with EFI and over drive (looking for 18-22 MPG over the present 10-11 MPG it gets now) I think it would be worth spending the money. What do you guys/gals think???
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote madmaxtorino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-September-2012 at 2:13PM
This is the one I used on Mad Max.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote madmaxtorino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-September-2012 at 2:17PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dan the ranchero man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-September-2012 at 2:32PM
How much was this unit and how did it perform for you? Did it require a fuel return line? The unit I am looking at does not. I like that feature.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote madmaxtorino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-September-2012 at 3:14PM
It does require a return line. More power and better fuel mileage. Around $2000 depends on where you get it.

Edited by madmaxtorino - 21-September-2012 at 3:15PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-September-2012 at 2:22PM
Retrotek Boss EFI has a fuel pump controller that can be used with any EFI to make it a returnless system. looks like the complete Retrotek returnless system is about the same $ as MSD
 
 
video
 
what is your rpm now @ 60 mph?
 
is a different camshaft out of the question?


Edited by Rockatansky - 22-September-2012 at 2:24PM
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Dan the ranchero man View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dan the ranchero man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-September-2012 at 4:52AM
My RPMs at 60 are 2500 with a 3.00 rear gear. The cam I am running is a comp cams 272 Duration with a .494 lift. The engine runs great other than converting over to a EFI system I don't really feel the need to go inside and mess with anything. Thanks for the vdieo link to the retroteck system. Looks very similar to the MSD unit.    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-September-2012 at 12:04PM
maybe the 268H with 268* & 494 lift?
 
i thought maybe you had more of a gas pig cam in there, 268 is as big as i'd recommend for a fuel efficient build and is also a very good choice for your combo regardless. as mentioned somewhere it's difficult to justify $pending because even to get back to 'even money' parts vs fuel is difficult, $2k will go a long way being just the difference between your current MPG and the improvement
 
have you thought about a Performer carb? they're a lot easier to tune than the classic style Holley's, you can swap metering rods and change jets if need be w/o carb dis-assembly or even spilling a drop of fuel. the #1411 750 is 2% leaner than the #1407, and the #1405 600 is 2% leaner than the #1406. only thing i can't stand about the Performers is they don't offer a Ford kickdown on the linkage, you have to add a bracket or rig it yourself. a Lokar cable is an option 
 
the Thermoquad is back in a new reincarnation, and they have the Ford kickdown on the linkage!
i wonder if the Edelbrock tuning kits will work with the BG's? and it looks like air cleaner fitment may be a little tricky. BG offers their own open element cleaner that works...
 
i think you can find the same mpg's as you will with EFI with a 'tighter' carb than a Holley,  bolt on a Gear Vendors unit and shut the front door


Edited by Rockatansky - 23-September-2012 at 12:06PM
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Dan the ranchero man View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dan the ranchero man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-September-2012 at 2:47AM
First off this car is running the carter AFB unit and it does run very good (this unit has a ford kickdown). My wife and I did the math on the EFI The unit is 2k and assuming gas is $4 a gal brings you to 500gal of fuel. At apprx 10 MPG x the 500 Gal set me at 5000 Miles of driving. In an average season of ranchero driving I put 4000 miles a year on my cars. So with that said I could see the return in a little over a years woth of driving (this car with gas a $4 a gal). I am looking a relibility as well and when you are out on a road trip that pays for itself two fold. Fuel injected cars don't have boilover issues carbs do. while mine is pretty well behaved 90+ degree days can cause issues. I love driving the car so I am looking at bringing up to date with some relibility realated upgrades (i.e EFI and a some overdrive) Looking to bring RPMs and wear and tear down and MPG up. I will be looking into the gear vendor units for sure! Thanks for your help take care Dan
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-September-2012 at 2:34PM
it's been more than a couple years & i only saw them once, why did i think you're a Holley guy?
 
(unless you already have one in there) first thing i'd do is put a wideband O2 gauge on it to see what it's doing at various cruise rpms, maybe it's running fat @ cruise and you can trim it down some with a metering rod change?
 
so you're figuring on doubling your mpg to 20?
 
using $2200(inc tax) as the EFI investment factor;
 
@ $4 / 10 mpg you now cost $1600 gasbucks a year to make 4000 miles
 
@ $4 / 15 mpg you'll cost $1067 / 4000 miles, saving $533 ga$/yr or 4.12 yrs to break even
 
@ $4 / 20 mpg you'll cost $800 / 4000 miles, saving $800 ga$/yr or about 2.75 yrs break even
 
add the $2800 Gear Vendors 3DF60A to the recipe for a $5000 investment factor...
 
do you think it can make 28 mpg? 
 
@ $4 / 28 mpg you'll cost $571.43 to make 4000 miles, saving $1028.57 ga$/yr & 4.86 years break even, which really ain't bad at all IMO, actually pretty darn good & feasible. usually 'Green Tech' doesn't ever break even much less pay back
 
unless you can swing by Ft Lauderdale and pick up a unit for a Swingin Deal?
 
not including travel you'll break even in 3.4 yrs
 
and don't forget, the more you drive the more you save! Wink
 
 
 


Edited by Rockatansky - 24-September-2012 at 2:36PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote unlovedford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-September-2012 at 3:18PM
I am a big fan of EFI systems. Forgot how aggravating a 4 bbl carb could be until the issues with my wagon started. I know that there may be a long payout to recoup the expense, but other than that awesome 4Bbl sound when hammered, an EFI gives you vast improvement in driveability, adjustability, and reliability. That has to count for something and the carb issues are the reason I'm pulling a perfectly great 429/C6 combo out and installing a smaller EFI engine/AOD.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dan the ranchero man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-September-2012 at 3:35PM
MPG is one of the main goals of this upgrade. But one can't put a price on relibility on a long road trip! EFI= no more fuel boilovers/hard starts when cold/mechanical fuel pumps that leak and fail/better throttle response/drivibility/relibility. gear vendor overdrive= lower RPM's/less wear and tear/lower engine&trans temps/better fuel economy/fun to drive with more gears. Again I have owned this car for 30 years already if I spend $5000 on upgrades I know it will be around to pay for itself. Thanks for your help guys! I will keep you all posted on my desisions. Take care Dan   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psquare75 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-September-2012 at 2:46AM
If you can get 28 MPG over a full tank of gas, normal driving with a 460, I'll eat my sock. Never going to happen.  Even 20 is pushing it. I think if you can get 15, you'll be doing well.

My 77 Cougar, with a very mild but stout 460, a lame-o crane 260 tow truck cam. wide ratio C6, 2.47 gears and a fairly well tuned holley (plugs look perfect on removal after 20K miles). averaged 13.4-13.5 MPG.. and that was all backroads with few stop lights or stop signs, averaging 40-55 MPG. Usually it was 12-13 MPG. 

Same engine now installed in my F100 nets 11 MPG.

This "E10" gas kills mileage, not sure if you have it.. my daily  went from a high of 26 MPG to 23-24, when it was introduced. 





Edited by Psquare75 - 25-September-2012 at 2:49AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote unlovedford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-September-2012 at 3:21AM
I agree with the gas comments. When I run my trips (3K miles at a time) over the course of a week, it takes quite a few fillups. Several stations along the way still serve Unleaded Gasoline w/o any % Ethanol. My Titan will get 16-17 with a minimal load on the "pure" 87 octane Unleaded, but use the 10% mix (widely and most commonly available) and it plummets to 13-14. Same load, same truck, same stretch of road, same driving style. Not just 1 time, but this gets tested every month. Unfortunately, the cost difference is between $0.10 and $0.30 per gallon higher. At times, it basically boils down to whether I want to go the extra distance (and crunch time) by using the higher price or run less miles, more time filling up, and less cost.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fordpower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-September-2012 at 5:24AM
I don't know about non elt.but on the way back from Denver I tried to only use shell they clame to have something in it. Well on way out26.9 adv on way back went up to 31.9. Since home no shell in n.y. dropping down now at 27.7 and dropping.Who knows?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-September-2012 at 7:12AM
i pulled 28 mpg out of my sock as a best case scenario, there seems to be a brick wall in front of 30 mpg for rear wheel drive V8's no matter what you do. admittedly i have no idea what the actual real world results of a dialed in EFI system &/or the GV OD will be on Dan's Blue Submarine
 
the GV website states 28.6% reduction, 4.10 gears will run like a 3.20 gear in OD. i reverse engineered the math and the 28.6 factor works, then i applied it to Dan's 3.00 gear that he has in it now... in OD he'll be cruising a 2.33 rear gear. then you have to figure & calculate the average of the time spent in/out of OD
 
mostly my post was to show that you can't count the total after operating expenses as returns, you still have to feed the beast anyway. the savings are only the Difference of the before/after gains divided out over time 
 
i was surprised that the investment came back as quickly as it did even @ 15 mpg. if the EFI and the GVOD only make 15 mpg break even is 7.38 years which is still not bad, include the reliability, fangle, did it myself wrench time factor and i say done deal Thumbs Up
 
you could even drive it to Bonneville, put down a decent run and drive it back home LOL 


Edited by Rockatansky - 25-September-2012 at 7:14AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dan the ranchero man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-September-2012 at 7:13AM
Originally posted by Psquare75 Psquare75 wrote:

If you can get 28 MPG over a full tank of gas, normal driving with a 460, I'll eat my sock. Never going to happen.  Even 20 is pushing it. I think if you can get 15, you'll be doing well.

My 77 Cougar, with a very mild but stout 460, a lame-o crane 260 tow truck cam. wide ratio C6, 2.47 gears and a fairly well tuned holley (plugs look perfect on removal after 20K miles). averaged 13.4-13.5 MPG.. and that was all backroads with few stop lights or stop signs, averaging 40-55 MPG. Usually it was 12-13 MPG. 

Same engine now installed in my F100 nets 11 MPG.

This "E10" gas kills mileage, not sure if you have it.. my daily  went from a high of 26 MPG to 23-24, when it was introduced. 



I never said I could get 28! (I wish) My goal was 18-21MPG. My ranchero MX with the 460 and a 2.75 rear gear gets 15-16 highway all day long. That car is running a holley 600 CFM carb and the cam is a stock PI grind from 1970-71 the compression is around 9 to 1. Again the plan is to slow the engine down a bit and upgrade the induction system. I plan on having this car until they bury me in it so I am not worried about any "return" on it if I sell it. My return will be better mileage and a more relible car. :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-October-2012 at 12:29PM
dude just posted his Atomic EFI build on C.net
 
what i've been wondering is, if you can choose a target AFR or does the CPU just do its own thing?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dan the ranchero man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-October-2012 at 10:31AM
The MSD system I was looking at you had a control that you entered basic data about the drivtrain and the CPU did the rest. (self learning system)
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