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SUSPENSION SETUP - Time to decide |
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TV 2M8O
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Topic: SUSPENSION SETUP - Time to decidePosted: 18-October-2013 at 2:06PM |
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With the Tomato up in the air and about to lose her suspensions, the time has come to decide on components... For the rear suspension, I have already decided on
this:
MOOG CC803 wagon
coils w/K8291-2 spacers (3 per side) to get the stance like Justin
(Starsky74Torino) got on his car MONROE MA805
Max-Air shocks ENERGY SUSPENSION 4.3120-BLK rear control arm polyurethane bushing kit w/ boxed lower
arms Moving to the front, the first question is the steering box…LARES lists a quick ratio Ford box (p/n 841) and the 10:1 fast
ratio Saginaw box (p/n 807). I’m not going to be doing any slalom racing but I
would like faster steering than the ’76 came with. I read that the 841 box has
a heaver “new car” feel (no fingertip steering anymore!) and 3½ turn lock-to-lock
rather than 4. I’m guessing the Saginaw is more of a “boy racer” type box that
is even quicker than the Ford. Did a quick internet search and it looks like
the 841 is less than $100 while the
807 is a “return and rebuild” of the Saginaw box (if I had one) for around $250
(RockAuto). Since the 841 box looks to be easier to get, would that be my best
choice for a more modern, firmer feel for a cruiser/driver? With the entire suspension removed, I plan on
sandblasting everything and painting with POR15 then a top coat of EASTWOOD satin
chassis black. Some of the natural parts will be coated with clear POR15 to
maintain that ‘naked metal’ look. Anyone tried this? Does it work or will the
clear fog or appear milky over time (from UV exposure)? For the front
suspension bushings, I think I will again turn to ENERGY SUSPENSION for their black polyurethane bushing kit. I’ve
heard both pros and cons about using the poly bushings for the strut rods. Has
anyone used the ES (or other mfg) front end kit with their poly strut rod bits
and had any adverse experiences? They say the graphite impregnation helps lube the
bushings but I think on the strut rods the issue is really the compression/extension
of the bushings during suspension travel that kills the bushings. Am I correct? I am also leaning toward using the MOOG 80090 ’02 CVPI front springs. I think from what I was able to glean
from the coil spring thread that using these spring with a 460/AC car they
should settle slightly lower than stock but with a bit firmer ride used in
conjunction with the MONROE 550010
severe duty shocks also for an ’02 CVPI. And lastly, I'd like to replace all the sway bar bushings
with Energy Suspension black
polyurethane bushings, IF they have the right sizes to fit the OEM brackets and
such. ANY ONE DONE THIS?? Part Numbers??? I value everyone’s input and look forward to your
suggestions….. THANKS!! |
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GranTorinoSport
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Posted: 18-October-2013 at 6:35PM |
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Joe,
I hope others comment as well. I will touch a few items I have some worthwhile comment on only. I have experience with POR-15 products and I do like them (none with the clear) but there are other options. There is a very recent thread here (within last two weeks) where the POR versus others was discussed. Worth a thorough read. Don't use poly strut rod bushings. Moog makes a good rubber kit. Sway bar end links. I struggled with this. I ended up using energy suspension bushings but the bolt and nuts etc from NAPA kit 265-1206. It just seemed to fit right. I used an Addco bar on the 73. Nice product. Overall the energy suspension stuff is good. Just not for strut rod. Steering box. Lots of discussion over the years here. I just went with stock box but got a good rebuild at a Seattle place called Redhead. Famous in the business but expensive. Recommended. Edited by GranTorinoSport - 18-October-2013 at 6:36PM |
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GranTorinoSport
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Posted: 18-October-2013 at 6:42PM |
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Oh yea, shocks. On my 75 Sport I used some Monroe sensa-tracs or something for. 92 Crown Vic I believe. Significant improvement. Not insane by any means. Just nicer. I think you can get much better like Billistein (Psquare75 has used those I know) but for a moderate priced shock the Crown Vic Monroe's are pretty decent.
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72FordGTS
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Posted: 19-October-2013 at 3:22AM |
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When I did my suspension, I had all the parts blasted, then powder coated. I have used POR-15 and it's not my favourite product, but it does work well on rusted parts. If your having the stuff blasted anyway, why use a Rust paint? I had my "natural metal" parts powder coated in a light gray close to bare steel. I then used a scotchbrite pad to scuff up the powder coat and used Eastwoods detail gray for paint (or the Cast Blast for cast parts). I even cleaned all my ball joints and steering parts and painted them too. Scott's right, don't use poly on the front strut rods, but everywhere else is fine.
I used the Energy rear suspension kit on my car, and it was decent. It definitely increased the ride harshness over the stock rubber bushings. I didn't box my arms as I was worried about suspension bind with the poly bushings. The black bushings have some give, but no where near rubber. I figured if the lower arm flexes a bit it would help prevent bind (much like how Fox Mustangs need some flex in their upper control arms). So far I haven't had any issues with the rear suspension. I used a Saginaw steering box with a 12.7:1 ratio (it was a Ford Saginaw box that the builder built with 12.7:1 guts). It's a very quick box, I wouldn't go faster. Road feel is only marginally better than stock, but response is a vast improvement. The Saginaw swap is easy, just a couple of small modifications to make it work. I am thinking if I alter my stock pump to lower the steering boost I will increase the road feel (right now there is just too much power boost). If you want a stiff controlled ride, Moog 80090's are great. They are stiff though, so if you like a soft ride, you won't like them. But they do basically eliminate any body roll and keep these 2 ton tanks feeling very controlled (except on really rough broken pavement). I used Bilstien Shocks for a 1992-2002 CVPI. They are more expensive, but in my opinion the best shock on the market for our cars. Firm, and controlled, but not overly hash. Again, if you favour a soft ride, these may be too firm. If you download Energy's catalog, I am sure you can find poly bushings that will work. I am running Addco bars front and rear which come with poly bushings. Make sure you lube them or they will squeak!
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Vince
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PS122
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Posted: 19-October-2013 at 4:55PM |
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Lots of good info here. Thanks guys.
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Joe
'76 S&H Gran Torino http://starskytorino.com/joes/joes.html |
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Billy C
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Posted: 21-October-2013 at 12:06PM |
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Joe,
I think you are on the right track depending on a few other things. Here are my thoughts on this. Whenever you deviate from stock in any area of vehicle handling dynamics all bets are off. That is assuming the engineers and designers of the original car knew enough to get it right the first time. Don't forget the most important thing is tires, tires, and tires. I'm sorry if you mentioned it in another post and I missed it. Maybe elaborate on your plans for tire selection too. Bottom line is if you are not keeping stock tires things are going to change everywhere. Bushings will see more or less load, springs will react different, shocks will react different, ARBs will see more or less load, chassis will flex differently, and the over all ride "feel" will change. As you are probably seeing by now all you can do is get a good starting point and modify and adjust from there. I think you seem to have a nice handling package planned. Something I do see that might be too stiff regardless of tires and everything else is the cc803 rear springs. I have a set that was on my car for a while and the rear end was just way too stiff. I wound up get very un-predictable oversteer mid corner. Went to a lighter spring, I don't remember the numbers, and it helped a lot. Also what is your drive line setup going to be, AC/no-AC?
Edited by Billy C - 21-October-2013 at 12:07PM |
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-Billy Conturo
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TV 2M8O
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Posted: 24-October-2013 at 10:31PM |
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Thanks guys for all the feed back!
After reading your comments, I'm rethinking the rear spring/shock combo. I remember back in the day on my '76 S&H LE, I ran air shocks fully inflated to keep the wheel lips and side walls apart and there was NO GIVE in the ass of the car over bumps! My plan to use the CC803/spacer/air shock combo was to get the rake I had back but I wasn't going to run much air in the shocks... they were there for "period correctness" and a bit of extra lift should I have a load in the trunk. Billy, my Tomato will be powered by a mildly built (350-400hp) 460w/AC, C6 transmission into factory locking rear end. At this time I'm unsure what gear ratio is packed into it. I plan on spinning things this weekend to try and get a rough estimate what it may be. For tires, I'll be going with BFG Radial TA's... 275/60R15's out back and 215/60R14's on the front. I miked my ARB's last weekend and they appear to be 1" on the front and 11/16"(?) on the rear. My car has the factory HD suspension. While I'd love to go Bilstein on the shocks, right now I need to get this baby done, so those will be part of a future upgrade and I'll go with the Monroe's.... don't want a Lincoln luxury rider but also don't want a kidney buster! So are the severe duty a bit too stiff used in conjunction with the 80090's? Sensa-tracs a better choice? Again I appreciate everyone's input.... KEEP IT COMIN!!! ![]() THANKS
Edited by TV 2M8O - 24-October-2013 at 10:33PM |
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Psquare75
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Posted: 31-October-2013 at 4:01AM |
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Advance sells the Lares box for under $200 with a warranty. Drives great, bolted in.
Bilstein's are great with 15" wheels and big donut tires.. But awful with 17" wheels and low pros.
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Paul
77 XR7 460/C6/3.00:1 *SOLD* 78 XR7 523/C6/3.5:1 79 F100 460/TKO500/3.25:1 'I also have some left over potatoes-I understand you can generate electricity from them'- Foote500 |
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TV 2M8O
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Posted: 31-October-2013 at 4:16AM |
Paul, Advance has the 841 and the 807? Found the 841 but nothing for the 807..... ADVISE ASAP BECAUSE ADVANCE IS OFFERING 20% OFF ORDERS THRU SUNDAY 11/03/13 THANKS
Edited by TV 2M8O - 31-October-2013 at 4:21AM |
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mlachance112785
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Posted: 31-October-2013 at 9:11AM |
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I got the Lares 841 box through Advance Auto Parts for next to nothing. I have zero complaints about that box, and would recommend it to anyone looking for a cheap upgrade.
You can order on their website. Here's the link: http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_power-steering-gear-box-lares_20340019-p It's $96.29 with a $55.00 core charge. "TRT30" is a coupon code for 30% off, and they offer free shipping on an order of $75 or more. Hopefully this helps! |
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77 Cougar XR7 460/C6
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TV 2M8O
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Posted: 01-November-2013 at 2:28AM |
Thanks for the 30% discount code Mark.. Lares 841 box ($77 with discount!) and 80090 CVPI front coils on order!! ...and if I can get a concensus on whether the Monroe Severe Duty shocks are too hash for a firm footed driver versus the Sensa-Trac shocks by Sunday, I still have my 20% discount code to order the shocks, a set of CC811 rear coils and the Lares 201 coupler! Anyone got experience with the two shocks? PLEASE ADVISE Again my thanks to all for your input!!! Edited by TV 2M8O - 01-November-2013 at 2:31AM |
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72FordGTS
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Posted: 01-November-2013 at 3:51AM |
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I'd go with the severe duty if you aren't going with a high-end mono-tube. You need a shock that can handle the stiff 80090 spring. I think the Sensa-tracs won't be strong enough to dampen them.
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Vince
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TV 2M8O
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Posted: 03-November-2013 at 6:55AM |
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OK, going with the Monroe Severe Duty shocks. I've got the 550010's in the cart for the front. Now the quandry is, if I DON'T use the air shocks, do I use the regular 550011 Severe Duty rear shocks or the 550051 Severe Duties with assist springs with the LTDII CC811 rear coils?
![]() DECISIONS, DECISIONS, DECISIONS!! LOL
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72FordGTS
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Posted: 03-November-2013 at 8:13AM |
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I haven't head much good with spring assist shocks, they are usually more of a Band-Aid for old jalopies. I'd stick with just the shock alone.
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Vince
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TV 2M8O
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Posted: 03-November-2013 at 9:05AM |
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Ordered the 550010's & 550011's as well as the CC811 rear coils...
THANKS EVERYONE FOR YOUR INPUT!
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Billy C
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Posted: 03-November-2013 at 9:11AM |
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nice. seems like you should have a good starting point. I'd give the poly bushings a shot too.
Your suspension deflection from side loading will most likely be pretty low in the front using the 215s but poly will probably last a little bit longer anyways so why not. Good luck, make sure to take pictures of the progress
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-Billy Conturo
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TV 2M8O
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Posted: 04-November-2013 at 12:47PM |
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Billy,
I have a project thread here on the GTS forum with LOTS of progress photos on my Tomato tribute clone ... Check it out:
I've been following your build thread as well. Thanks too for your input on this thread!!
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Billy C
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Posted: 04-November-2013 at 1:25PM |
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ya, I've been keepin an eye on it. It was more of a reminder
. That's gona be one nasty ride when you are done!! Some more little advice as far as suspension goes. When you are doing the bushings take care in installing them, especially the front ones. You really want the upper arms to be as symmetrical as possible and the way the bushings are it sometimes gets messed up a little. The more accurate the bushing work is on the upper arms the easier the caster and camber settings are to dial in and the more accurate your geometry stays throughout the travel. Also be careful not to get paint inside the bushing barrels and keep paint out of the front upper arm shaft locking teeth. In regards to the radius rod bushings I'm curious too. As anyone on here broken a (not rusted) radius rod on a Torino? I feel like that would bee a catastrophic failure!!!
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-Billy Conturo
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TV 2M8O
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Posted: 09-November-2013 at 10:31AM |
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OK guys, I have another suspension question...
Friday at lunch I was searching thru the forum and stumbled across a thread discussion about swapping out the '74-'76 spindles to '72 Thunderbird spindles so larger 12" rotors could be utilized. Tried finding the thread again just now and thus far have come up empty... But I'll keep diggin'!
Until then, if I read and understood it correctly, I basically need EVERYTHING attached to the spindle... brackets, rotor, caliper, hose, etc to be able to upgrade to the 12" '72 T-bird discs but my proportioning valve, master cylinder and all would work just fine with the swap.
DID I UNDERSTAND THAT CORRECTLY?
The suspension teardown has begun! See my progress under STARSKY & HUTCH/Project TV 2M8O.
As always, thanks in advance for all your comments!
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GranTorinoSport
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Posted: 09-November-2013 at 12:17PM |
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Joe - you basically understood it correctly.
Parts that are the same: Master Cylinder, Proportioning Valve, brake pads, caliper. Parts that are different: Spindle, Caliper Mount Bracket, wheel bearings, rotors. Can't remember about the rotor dust shields, but if you are getting a set of 72 T-bird spindles, get it all. Spindles bolt up to upper/lower control arms no problem. Have done the install myself. It does actually all fit. Bigger rotor means more stopping power! On a side note, using 73-up full size parts will mean going to a 5x5 bolt pattern unless you have the rotors custom drilled for 5x4.5 lugs (and I believe have the center turned down a bit to fit wheels).
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Scott Eklund
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TV 2M8O
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Posted: 09-November-2013 at 1:06PM |
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Scott,
Don't want to change to 5x5 pattern because I already have my wheels!!! The T-birds were 5x4.5 right??
...and thanks for confirming my interpertation of the other thread!
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GranTorinoSport
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Posted: 09-November-2013 at 4:28PM |
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Yes, the T-birds were 5x4.5 in 72. That is the easiest swap option available. The rotors are a little on the pricey side ($130/ea if memory serves), but a lot less hassle than other options.
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TV 2M8O
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Posted: 10-November-2013 at 3:03AM |
It's a single year availability, 1972 Thunderbird?
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Big Bird
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Posted: 10-November-2013 at 7:29AM |
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Yup, in '73 the t-bird and the full-size ford went to a 5 on 5 pattern. Also bearing sizes changed, and so did the spindle, so you can't use a '72 rotor on a '73-up spindle.
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Randy 1979 T-Bird 2005 F-150 STX RCSB 4.6, 3.55 LSD How the Heck does a REGULAR CAB SHORTBED weigh over 5200 pounds? |
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TV 2M8O
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Posted: 15-November-2013 at 9:29AM |
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With no luck finding the '72 Tbird assemblies, I'm now going the later model rout and will have rotors remachined 5x4.5 BC..... Now to find the caliper brackets!!!!
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Big Bird
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Posted: 15-November-2013 at 11:18AM |
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caliper brackets should be easy. Any full-size ford/mercury/lincoln 1973-78. Also 72-76 t-bird or mark IV, any police package torino with 5x5 bolt pattern, 77-79 mark V with 4 wheel disc and 5x5 bolt pattern.
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"What we do in full frontal view, is more honest than your cleaned-up mind."
Randy 1979 T-Bird 2005 F-150 STX RCSB 4.6, 3.55 LSD How the Heck does a REGULAR CAB SHORTBED weigh over 5200 pounds? |
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TV 2M8O
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Posted: 16-November-2013 at 2:26AM |
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I think I've found my direction for the front discs... Watch my project updates for more.A great big THANK YOU to all for the feedback!
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TV 2M8O
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Posted: 18-November-2013 at 5:46AM |
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Guess I'll be sticking to the stock Torino front brakes.... already have my wheels & tires and the fronts are 14" wheels and probably won't work with the 12" rotors...
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GranTorinoSport
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Posted: 18-November-2013 at 6:02AM |
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Yes, 14" wheels is a problem.
I believe 15" is the minimum for the full size 12 inch rotor. I know on my Chrysler 300 that I need to have 15 inch wheels on it just to have the disc brakes. I have to upgrade the wheel size. |
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