The Ford Torino Page Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > Model Specific Forum > 1972-1976 Ford and Mercury
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - TREMEC 5-Speed BB Torino's
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

TREMEC 5-Speed BB Torino's

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345>
Author
Message
BackInBlack View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 11-January-2011
Location: Virginia
Status: Offline
Points: 714
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BackInBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-August-2012 at 2:38PM
I'm going the easier route...stick with stock pedal setup.   I just need to get the bushings for the pedals.   Right now...I dont have a welder or access to one.   I dont have the space either.   (Hopefully in the future that will change.)  So doing any custom mod is really difficult to do ATM.

2.75 gears are a bit tall for the motor I want to build.  This is why I went with the 3.70 with a tremec.  I went through the expected RPMs and shift points with 288+ cam.   I dont expect to pull enough vacuum for the vacuum booster to function well.  I know you can put an electric vacuum pump on, but I was thinking on the CPP hydoboost hydraulic brake booster instead.   


I was hoping someone has already tried the tremec swap or something other than a top loader.   This is why I wanted to do a 5 speed because of the 3.70 gears....etc.   Look at the setup with the newer cars like the Shelby gt500, ZL1, etc.   they start with 3.40 gears and option up to 3.70 using the new 6 speed tranny (T56).  Using that as a reference point with tranny and rear gear selection.

  I would try a six speed but it would require to much money and to many mods.   I simply want an overdrive for the freeway and still have that acceleration like you get with 4.10-4.56 gears with a close ratio toploader.   

If anyone knows another salvage yard 5-speed that would work like a tremec 600....I'm all ears

I know Kiesler has a new tranny, but its a bit pricey.

-John
-John
1973 GTS
Back to Top
302ford View Drop Down
Member
Member


Joined: 24-February-2008
Location: vancouver
Status: Offline
Points: 173
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 302ford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-August-2012 at 12:31AM
I have a tremec swap in my car. 408w with a xr286 solid roller cam, which is fairly aggressive. I went with 95 mustang pedals, booster, and master. It draw plenty of vacuum to stop fine when driving, and enough a low idle as well.

The 3.70 gears with it work well too. I almost wish I had 4.10's as I don't usually shift into 5th till around 65-70 mph. 

I went with the mustang setup because I figured it was the easiest and cheapest route. Cable clutch, new quadrants etc.

Ill see if i can dig up some pictures of my swap
79 LTD II 408/TKO/3.7's

12.52 116.5mph. street tires
Back to Top
Eliteman76 View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar

Joined: 20-March-2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4444
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eliteman76 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-August-2012 at 3:40AM
I don't know John...personally I don't see $2800 for the magnum 6 speed from American Powertrain that bad a deal, but lol as broke as I am, not happening for a while.
Issue is...I figured a late model stock t56 but bellhouse is issue, all the ones I see, I swore the bellhouse was part of the case for the transmission.
I will say after drive a late model with a quick shifter it is fun...but also love bang shifting the toploader.
Andrew
Back to Top
Billy C View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 10-February-2010
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Status: Offline
Points: 898
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Billy C Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-August-2012 at 1:23PM
I like this thread, loads of info on the swap I plan to do. I have been gathering parts as well.  My question is the clutch to use with the tko 600. What are you guys doing for a clutch? 
-Billy Conturo
Back to Top
BackInBlack View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 11-January-2011
Location: Virginia
Status: Offline
Points: 714
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BackInBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-August-2012 at 10:44AM
For the T56...seems easy if your using a more modern power plant like the Ford modular motor (4.6, 5.4).   You would probably have to go with the t56 magnum for a ford small block and get the bell housing or some adapter.

This is why I'm going with the tremec 600 or if keisler comes down in price...maybe their tranny.

I can't remember about the clutch.   I think its the standard size clutch you find in the mustang (small block).   I believe for the 351C is ext balanced 28oz 157 tooth flywheel.  Someone please confirm this... Not sure which clutch brand it better.   The newer clutches have made drastic improvements in the friction material.   I will probably stick with a diaphragm type to keep pedal pressure low.   Any details or info would be very helpful on the clutch selection...
-john
-John
1973 GTS
Back to Top
Billy C View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 10-February-2010
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Status: Offline
Points: 898
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Billy C Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-August-2012 at 4:40PM
I have a BB though. I think the 1 1/8, 26 spline input shaft was a common size for the beefier top-loader so a clutch to mate my flywheel (which I am going to have balanced with my engine very soon) to the trans shouldn't be too hard. I have a bell housing for a bb with a toploader, big ol' cast iron one with the fork going through the side. I believe the top-loader shares the same bolt pattern as the tko600. Someone correct me if I am wrong on any of this.
-Billy Conturo
Back to Top
Eliteman76 View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar

Joined: 20-March-2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4444
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eliteman76 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-August-2012 at 6:54PM
OK. I know this may just be a personal preference...but what is the deal with having a soft clutch pedal?
I mean...I know the new clutches are nice, easy, great.

But I love the clutch in the GTS. SOmething you can actually feel?

Personally I guess I am used to having a heavy clutch feel...
Andrew
Back to Top
73GTS View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 22-September-2008
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
Status: Offline
Points: 911
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 73GTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-March-2013 at 7:38AM
I'm considering a swap like this for my son's 73 Ranchero. I have an '89 5.0 HO with Tremec 5 sp from my Mustang I parted a few years back. I have the cable for the clutch and a BBK quadrant. What I don't have is a peddle or the knowledge to hook up to the cable. Looks like a few here have been down this road so all your advice is greatly appreciated. I also want to mention this project is on the extreme cheap since my son has very limited funds and I'm not paying anymore on his carBig smile
Thanks guys!
Jim


Back to Top
Eliteman76 View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar

Joined: 20-March-2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4444
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eliteman76 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-March-2013 at 9:36PM
Paul psqure75, Has a spare pedal set...I got it for a coversion he was planning, but he is staying auto on his car. pm me if interested.
Andrew
Back to Top
Psquare75 View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar
Member of the Stroker Club

Joined: 26-November-2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4587
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psquare75 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-March-2013 at 12:25PM
Now I know why everyone's after my pedals.. Sheesh. 
Paul
77 XR7 460/C6/3.00:1 *SOLD*
78 XR7 523/C6/3.5:1
79 F100 460/TKO500/3.25:1
'I also have some left over potatoes-I understand you can generate electricity from them'- Foote500
Back to Top
Eliteman76 View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar

Joined: 20-March-2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4444
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eliteman76 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-March-2013 at 5:30PM
Sorry man...lol I figured better home than a shelf in the shed.
Andrew
Back to Top
Billy C View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 10-February-2010
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Status: Offline
Points: 898
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Billy C Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-March-2013 at 6:32PM
noticed this discussion 

Originally posted by Carl Carl wrote:

A "real" manual trans would definitely be cool, but the hassle of adding a pedal and cutting/chopping everything to make it work (not to mention the $$$) makes it a daunting decision.

I ended up doing a full manual valve body in the C6 with a floor shifter.  Works great.  I can change gears whenever I want, and the torque of the big block doesn't need five or six speeds.

This is a good plan of attack for the street and honestly, there are even lots of racing applications where that would probably work better than a manual. Also the converter (depending on quality) would probably be more predictable than the clutch for clean launches and such for a carbed non-computer controlled engine.  An auto is a different animal all together than manual. The converter (unless it's the locking type) is always going to have slip and there is something very satisfying about that direct link to the road that you can only get with a manual.  There are other advantages of a TopLoader or TKO over the c6. The transmissions them selves weigh less, no need for lines and cooler that go to the front of the car, and less HP loss going through a manual. I know, it's cheaper to get 30 more HP out of a motor than to do an entire transmission swap (well depends on how insane your motor is already).  I do like both manuals and automatics so I am really just throwing some thoughts out there because it's stuff I have been thinking about for the future of my car.

Originally posted by Carl Carl wrote:

 
It's probably also worth mentioning in this thread that a wide ratio toploader with 2.75 rear gears will have an final drive ratio in first gear that's almost the same as a close ratio with 3.25 gears.  Kind of and underdrive instead of an overdrive.

2.32 x 3.25 = 7.54
2.78 x 2.75 = 7.65
Originally posted by BackInBlack BackInBlack wrote:

...
I'm guessing the 2.78 1st gear is the wide ratio top loader.    2.32 i know is the close ratio top loader.   I want an overdrive without buying a gear vender unit and the common T5 transmissions wont hold up.

I have a 3.70 rear...with the tremec 2.87 1st will launch like a 4:56 rear with the 2.32 close ratio top loader.  At 65 mph the rpms should be around 2-2.2K with the 0.64 5th gear.
-john
Originally posted by Carl Carl wrote:

I think you're missing what I'm saying.  With a wide ratio toploader and 2.75 rear gears, you don't need an overdrive, your first gear will be about as low as the tires can stand, AND you can use all the factory hardware.  2.75 rear gears with 1:1 in the trans will result in 2200 rpm.

The TKO 600's first gear ratio of 2.87 will be useless with your 3.70 gears, and the .64 overdrive would be useless with 2.75's.  There's just no need for a five or six speed....IMHO.

   You guys both have very good points. A six speed is ridiculous for a N/A big block with mild cam and wide power band. A six speed is great for something with a more narrow power band like a turbo where you gotta keep it tight under the curve. I also totally understand Carl's point of the tires being the weakest link assuming the use of max size good radial street tires that will fit under a non modified Torino. That being the case, ya, the tires aren't going to really take much from a hefty big block with a deep start gear when at WOT.
   
   In the BB I do see an ok fit for the five speed though. .64 is too big of a jump from 1:1 for me. Don't forget the .82 option for the TKO 600. 

   But before we go there, lets get the basics. (all calculations where done with a 27.5"OD tire in mind) A final ratio of around 7.5:1 is a bit shallow in my opinion. Say you start to get real high on the torque curve at 2500rpm for the big block. In 1st gear you are already going about 30mph when that snap kicks in. I am thinking that isn't quite deep enough for a trouble making street car.  So lets go with the toploader wide ratio with a 3 or 3.25 in the back. Keep that final drive closer to 9. With a 9:1 final drive ratio you get that kick a little over 20mph which is where I think the most fun is had on the street. It's so much more fun hitting that at a more tolerable speed and working from there. Let's estimate peak HP is had about 5500rpm and about 50mph is 1st gear. The jump to 2nd from 1st at 50 will come in at about 3800rpm. 2nd gear at 5500 rpm to 3rd will happen a little over 70mph and leave you at about 3800rpm again to work your way the high 80's and from there you get the point. What happens when you need that cruise ability at 70mph lets say. With a final drive gear of 3.25:1 (toploader + 3.25 rear) you are sitting about 2700rpm. I also have a VW GOLF MKII (junk) it's got a 5 speed and in 5th at 70 it pushes about 2900rpm and it doesn't feel good at all. I'd much rather it sitting a little lower maybe 2200rpm at that speed. With that being said it is a 1.8L I4 and not a 7.5+L V8 but rpm is rpm and rotating mass is rotating mass. Without a dyno sheet and test upon test for a particular motor it is impossible to determine where the motor should be spinning for the best gas mileage on the high way but it's safe to say that most engines see it around where that torque curve starts to come into full swing.

This is where the TKO comes in. Very similar to the wide ratio toploader but with an OD gear. At 70mph and a final drive ratio of 2.67 (3.25 + .82) the motor will be turning about 2200rmp. I feel like that is perfect.

anything more than a 3.50 with a tko is pretty useless for the street. I am going to mention again that 1 - .64 is just too big of a jump for me but would yield final drive ratios in 5th that look like this.
       3.25 x .64 = 2.08
       3.50 x .64 = 2.28
       3.70 x .64 = 2.37
       4.11 x .64 = 2.63
       and so on....

Another thing to consider is drive shaft rpm. With something like a 3.70 in the back going 70mph the drive shaft will be spinning at about 3200rpm and with something like a 3.25 the drive shaft is only spinning about 2700rpm which is a notable difference. With a .64 OD gear you would need something up around the 4s in rear to be in that sweet spot and with a 4.11 you are spinning that drive shaft at 3700rpm. All are tolerable but just trying to show maybe why the tko and toploaders are designed the way they are.

I think the options after figuring all this out are simple.

wide ratio TopLoader with a 3.00 or 3.25 rear gear
TKO .82 OD with a 3.25 or 3.5 rear gear

The close ratio TopLoader seems kind of useless for a mostly street big block. You would have to have such and insane rear gear to keep the pickup good (awesome) in 1st that it seems pointless but for the track it would be great keeping things tight and right in that money power band. 


Going with either a TopLoader or TKO, the best way to really fine tune the combo would be to bolt the tranny and drive line up and dyno it with any rear gears. Figure out what your WHP and WTQ is (that accounts for losses because you are taking it at the wheels, this also makes things easier because the losses in the drive line are not linear and vary based on a variety of variables) From there, a better decisions can be made as to where it best sits on the highway and adjust your rear gears to that. There are only so many usable/logical options when it comes down to it.

Here is a chart for all you nerds.

uploads/1918/Transmission_Option_Ratios.pdf

Later Wink


 



Edited by Billy C - 24-March-2013 at 6:40PM
-Billy Conturo
Back to Top
Billy C View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 10-February-2010
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Status: Offline
Points: 898
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Billy C Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-April-2013 at 10:40AM
  Here is some more things I have found involving the clutch

  I plan on going from my trusty c6 to the TKO which is turning out to be rather involved (according to research) considering it was a factory auto car. I will be starting out with close to nothing manual for the car other than a OEM iron bell housing that will connect the big block to the TKO. 
  My recent research finds involve the clutch.  
  I have discovered of a lot of different options for this. Some are using 11" for this or that or 10.5" off this or that" and I am seeing a lot of people having issues. Burned up clutches seem to be a common thing behind a powerful big block especially on heavier cars.  I basically have to start from scratch anyways. I need a flywheel, clutch, pressure plate, release bearing and with the hooker headers I need an internal slave cylinder (unless I want to sacrifice the equal length qualities of the headers or make new ones). As mentioned, the only part I currently have is a bell housing to mate the bbf to the Toploader/TKO (discovered that it will work).  The other constant is that the input shaft on the TKO for most Ford applications is 1.125" x 26 spline. 
  Through hours of research trying to find something to fill that gap I have come up with what might be a simple solution. 
   I figure if the 460s bolted to a 5 speed and 6 speed zf could pull around 5 ton dump trucks all day, everyday from the 1970's to 1992, why isn't that the obvious solution for the clutch. That thought lead me to discover that the 7.5L (460) in f250s and f350s from the late 80's to the early 90's was accompanied by a 12" clutch. The parts for those trucks are absurdly cheap compared to the aftermarket clutch kits on summit for anything close to that size no matter what make it was designed for. Another thing that is also very available is a brand new flywheel designed for that 12" clutch and the 460. Understanding that the 460 was externally balanced by that time means the flywheel would have to be balanced neutral for my internal balance motor which shouldn't be too hard.
   So a 460 flywheel for the 12" clutch and the clutch kit to match that can be had for under $300 but, the clutch has a 1.25" 10 spline connection so that wont work for the TREMEC's 1.125" 26 spline. Hang on though! Most GM 12" clutches have 1.125" 26 spline connections so add that in the mix assuming everything else is the same with the clutch plate except the spline.  Moving onto the release bearing and slave cylinder. The release bearing will come with the 460's clutch kit but the clutch needs to be disengaged. Just happens that GM made a OEM internal slave cylinder for 1.125" shaft in the mid 2000's. This was used on a much smaller clutch with a much lighter pressure plate but it might work. I will have to do more research on this and maybe take my chances with a few parts, take measurements, and run tests but this could be the answer. Also to note Ford made a internal slave cylinder for the JAGUAR x type in the 2000's as well but I think it will be too wimpy as well if the GM one turns out to be.


Taking things one step at a time here.

any more input on the clutch topic would be appreciated.



-Billy Conturo
Back to Top
Psquare75 View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar
Member of the Stroker Club

Joined: 26-November-2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4587
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psquare75 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-April-2013 at 3:56PM
So, I uh just bought this for my truck....




Paul
77 XR7 460/C6/3.00:1 *SOLD*
78 XR7 523/C6/3.5:1
79 F100 460/TKO500/3.25:1
'I also have some left over potatoes-I understand you can generate electricity from them'- Foote500
Back to Top
parking69lot View Drop Down
New Member
New Member


Joined: 04-March-2014
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 9
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote parking69lot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-March-2016 at 3:26PM
what clutch pedal do you use to put a cable operated clutch in a 72 gran torino?
Back to Top
73GTS View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 22-September-2008
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
Status: Offline
Points: 911
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 73GTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-March-2016 at 1:51AM
Originally posted by parking69lot parking69lot wrote:

what clutch pedal do you use to put a cable operated clutch in a 72 gran torino?


Without fabrication and welding,I'm going the hydraulic clutch route.
Jim


Back to Top
BackInBlack View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 11-January-2011
Location: Virginia
Status: Offline
Points: 714
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BackInBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-March-2016 at 9:08AM
I was planning on using the TKO600 coupled with the 3.7 rear.  Its 10:1 final drive range.  I'm planning on using the 351C motor and was expecting to rev it up a bit.  I was planning on the 0.64 overdrive for highway use as I couldn't see a reason for 0.82 with the 351C.  billyc post makes sense for a big block with all that low end torque.   Plans change...nothing in stone.

I have the OEM pedal set and linkage.   Does anyone know if I have to mod my original auto pedal bracket/brace to install the manual pedals?  

I was also planning on a hydraulic clutch for ease of installation.  Some pretty simple kits out there.

Looking forward to seeing how folks solve these problems.  Would be very helpful.


Edited by BackInBlack - 07-March-2016 at 9:09AM
-John
1973 GTS
Back to Top
parking69lot View Drop Down
New Member
New Member


Joined: 04-March-2014
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 9
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote parking69lot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-March-2016 at 12:07PM
i dont have any clutch pedal yet , wondering what anyone else has used that may be easier to locate than the factory pedals and brackets. 
Back to Top
parking69lot View Drop Down
New Member
New Member


Joined: 04-March-2014
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 9
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote parking69lot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-March-2016 at 12:13PM
i read part of an artical about using a fox body clutch quadrent ,cable and pedal assembly but i could not get the link to the artical to work so i could read the whole thing so im not sure how much fabrication work was involved.
Back to Top
Billy C View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 10-February-2010
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Status: Offline
Points: 898
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Billy C Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-March-2016 at 12:36PM
TKO 600 in stock form can't handle flat shifting at 5500 rpm, so if you plan to rev and really drive the car, expect to get a modified TKO or something else. The T56 is probably the best transmission to mount in a front engine rear drive configuration right now. If I could do it all over again, I would go T56. It would only cost about $1000 more.

The clutch is either z bar like stock (i think) or hydro. A cable isn't going to work without some clever fab work and eliminating the brake booster. The hydro setup isn't cheap and will probably require some cleaver fab work as well. I went internal hydro release bearing and love it but I think I'm going to revise my pedal design a little when I get a chance. Ron Earp had a thread on here a while ago and I believe he went hydro with a slave cylinder. Maybe skimming his project thread would spark some ideas. 
-Billy Conturo
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.10
Copyright ©2001-2017 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.062 seconds.