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Billy C View Drop Down
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    Posted: 23-December-2014 at 4:02PM
  That's the pricing structure I expected. $500 a set for a one off custom part is very reasonable.  Sadly, I think that pricing structure is probably out of the price range for most folks on here, especially at $400+ a set. I am going to make no assumptions here so maybe it's not. How about this, don't move the ball joint back and make a symmetrical part. I would think that could save almost %15-%20 of the cost.  
   
   Whether or not they are actually an upgrade is a separate debate. The bigger suspension priority, among many, is that damn lower radius rod. It has to have a stiffer connection. That probably keeps about 2 degrees of caster over the deflecting rubber bushing under severe load. If an adjustable link is put on the radius rod a few degrees of caster could be had on top of that. The stock upper arm is light and strong, although it might not be as stiff as a tube steel one would be. Deflection in the upper arm isn't really that big a deal and it's such a small increase in rigidity going to tube steel that it might not justify it even in that regard.

   There is also the "bling" factor of tube steel control arms which isn't my thing but I understand some desire for it in the show car world.

  Of course none of this matters at all running the average 15" wheels with a 6 1/2" section width tire. The tire will always be the limiting factor no matter how stiff and tuned the chassis is.

   I'm still keeping an open mind with this one and would be willing to contribute if I can.


Edited by Billy C - 23-December-2014 at 4:03PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote madmaxtorino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-December-2014 at 6:09PM
Billy, If you don't move the ball joint then you are correct should just use the stock one. The limit on caster is one of the only problems with the front suspension, other than the strut rod bushings. He has shown interest in making those also but one step at a time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Billy C Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-December-2014 at 6:12PM
How much caster do you want?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote madmaxtorino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-December-2014 at 6:16PM
hotckis tested a galaxie with the same front suspension and it liked 5 plus best. They developed an arm like im talking about but then didn't produce it for the masses! I have 285/40/17 nitto 555 tires so I think it might help mine.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-BL7G5m98M

Edited by madmaxtorino - 23-December-2014 at 6:45PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Billy C Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-December-2014 at 7:09PM
   I think +5 is easy out of the stock setup. Maybe I am wrong. I think I was running +4 static before I did the lower radius rods . Also the wheel sits pretty far back in the wheel well in my car. I feel like if I dialed in much more from the top it would start to cause fitment issues. I was actually going to try to get more than +7 out of it after I have the "new" suspension setup in place and I think it is totally possible. It is mostly stock parts other than some trick stuff on the bottom. Going from +4 to +7 degrees is only about half and inch difference between top and bottom. Sorry for being brief on the topic of setup right now. I'm trying to stay away from too much tech and just leave the thread discussion on the topic at hand. Not only that but I can blabber on and on about it but in reality I don't have enough data to back up anything yet so I don't really know whats necessary or what will work. Except good sticky tires! I know those are necessary. Big smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Billy C Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-December-2014 at 8:44PM
   Ok fine! F*** it. We are all cool here. I might as well elaborate a bit since I just watched that video again. I must mention some bits about the Leno Galaxie. I'm sure everyone has watched through the video just like I have, pausing at crucial parts to see whats going on with suspension, brakes, and the other bits. I have to say I'm not thoroughly impressed. There is some cool stuff there but some bits I don't totally agree with or wouldn't want on my car. I think that Galaxie is leaning more in the "bling" show car realm. 
   I know Hotchkis is one of the best and bla bla bla. I also know for a fact that car isn't a competitive performance car at all and that's fine. It probably handles great for a mildly driven road car and that's fine too. It also probably weighs in at 4500+lbs and isn't being hammered on repetitively for extended periods of time. For example, I'd venture to say that the stock 12" big brakes with a good pad would outperform those wilwoods with their small volume pads any day. The wilwoods have the advantage of weight savings in a key area so they get a single point for that.
   Moving onto what the thread is more about. The biggest advantage in suspension that I see is something with the actual Galaxie chassis and that's the three link in the rear. Immediately I noticed what they did to it is probably not the best either. Where are the super easy, adjustable, and strong, spherical links at? Where is the watts link? Adjustable anti roll bar? Another thing! They put in all that work on designing that custom lower front arm, but they screwed that up too by not relocating the bump stop in relation to the ball joint. Suspension travel in the front is a huge issue after dropping the car down! There is still some big old rubber bushings up front on the radius rods and no chassis bracing. Despite the few suspension shortcomings, I must admit the rack and pinion setup is sweet. Expensive but it is truly beautiful. If the internals are as nice as the outside I'm sure it's amazing.
    I love Leno and what he does for the car world. He is a true car guy through and through. Even though he doesn't know the technical side of things as well, it seems he appreciates craftsmanship, proper design, and the heart of american car culture. What he should do is ditch all these big box companies just out to get some street cred and hire some fresh, talented, and enthusiastic automotive mechanical engineers right out of school. He could put a cheap mini R&D team together for all these projects of his. He obviously has the money and I know countless people who would love to be doing chassis dynamics, engine tuning, or even regular car maintenance for Jay F***in' Leno!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote madmaxtorino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-December-2014 at 11:03AM
Moved these post here to clean up other thread want to keep it just for people wanting control arms.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Bird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-December-2014 at 11:47AM
NASCAR used a 65 Galaxie-based  front suspension for years. (Rear suspension was based on 67ish Chevrolet c-10)
The above post should be read in a "Grumpy Old Man" voice.
Almost forgot: "Get off my lawn!!!"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Billy C Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-December-2014 at 11:53AM
Cool!!!! Thanks for keeping things in order. Well for real, we could use an organized sticky post on what suspension setups folks are running anyways so maybe this can be a start. Something like the coil spring thread but on suspension setup. I was always thinking of it but since this forum isn't as tech oriented as some others I figured I'd let it go and wait for other interest first. Maybe re-title the post "suspension setup options and specs" since I kind of immediately strayed away from just the front upper control arms. I'm sorry for cluttering up the other post. I just couldn't help it. Got excited. Embarrassed
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Regul8r Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-December-2014 at 2:41PM
I refrained from commenting on the other thread because that was for who wanted them.
The cost of them for the benefit just was not worth it in my opinion. For that price IF it included all brand new bushings, ball joints and UCA shafts then maybe.
To add on to what Billy said, the Radius arms are the biggest issues on our cars.
Those front bushings flex so much that they will move and change the caster MANY degrees.
The other thing to that is a deciding factor is...
What are you doing with your car and why are you willing to spend that much money on a part that doesn't gain a whole lot of benefit.
I can gain that much caster adjustment just elongating the UCA mount holes on the frame.
If we were talking about a car that is being raced (drag or road course) then the simplicity openness possible extra rigidity and ease of working on it at the track...sure. but for a road car, it's just bling. That's cool if thats what you are going for.

For that price it would be worth it for Tubular UCAs and adjustable Radius Arms as a package deal. Even a little more would be cool.

JUST my opinion, not criticizing anyone who buys or wants to buy them.





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote madmaxtorino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-December-2014 at 5:33PM
My first torino we got 4 degrees on caster. with the rubber bushings on the strut rods this could easily go to o or neg caster under braking. That is what gives these cars the squirrel-ee feeling under hard braking. Mine is definitely getting solid mount adjustable strut rods also. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Billy C Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-December-2014 at 6:37PM
I'm not sure. According to my measurements the absolute worst deflection that rubber bushing could see is probably 1/4" which translates to a few degrees at most. Of course that would most definitely give it a squirrel-ee feel. Articulation in the radius rod is crappy too so really it tackles a few problems.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72 RS 351 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-December-2014 at 3:01PM
I like the idea of improving the suspension of the cars.

I'm leaning towards cutting my frame and installing the 03-05ish Crown Vic assembly, to gain the better suspension, brakes, and steering. I'm not sure how doing it will work out given my skills, age, space, money, friend's help etc.

I began in 1989 with my Ranchero with an AGR steering box, rebuilding the UCA's with Delrin bushings, new BJ's, deburred for hours and painted, and welded on JFZ calipers/brackets(plus 12" rotors). That was from choices I made as a 25 year old, things change.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Regul8r Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-December-2014 at 12:56PM
Took some pics close up today of the UCA Mount perches.
 
 
in order to get more Caster or Camber both Positive or Negative all that needs to be done is elongate the slider holes. There is PLENTY of room to get ALOT more adjustment out of them!
I know I have to do this on Lola, with her ass in the air and front on the ground it is going to need ALOT of Caster adjustment to make up for the rake angle!
the Stock UCA's don't flex even close to enough to worry about.
 
I'll post pics as I do it and keep updates in my build thread.
 
I fully appreciate cool parts and upgrades but this is just not worth the money.
There are far better ways to spend that money on our cars that would provide more bang for your buck.
 
make me some GOOD radius rod arms and I would be ALL OVER IT!!!
 
BTW... those Arms are on a car that ran so smooth and straight that it wore both front tires like this when I pulled it and disassembled...
 
 


Edited by Regul8r - 27-December-2014 at 1:01PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Billy C Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-December-2014 at 6:44AM
What would be a reasonable price for an adjustable radius rod with a spherical bearing?

A packaged deal with:

bolt on mounts for the front frame rail
rod ends
jam nuts
adjustment link
new radius rod
hardware
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Regul8r Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-December-2014 at 7:02AM
 spohn is getting  $249 for both lower rears and that is with 4 sphericals and all new shafts.
 http://www.spohn.net/shop/1972-1976-Ford-Torino-Ranchero/Suspension/Rear-Lower-Control-Arms-Adjustable-with-Del-Sphere-Pivot-Joints-1972-1976-Ford-Torino-Ranchero.html
 I could see $150 with a $50 core if you are just cutting off the bushing end and threading on a spherical set up. We send you a good core so you get the rods replaced to make more.
 
IF you are looking at doing brand new rod material then I could see $200 for a pair is fair.
Spohn is getting 199 for the upper rears...
 
I would like to see a parts package or list to do my own here with my own radius rods.
I remember seeing someone post a how to and parts list, I have to go look.
 


Edited by Regul8r - 28-December-2014 at 7:03AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote madmaxtorino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-December-2014 at 7:26AM
Originally posted by Regul8r Regul8r wrote:

 
I would like to see a parts package or list to do my own here with my own radius rods.
I remember seeing someone post a how to and parts list, I have to go look.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Regul8r Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-December-2014 at 2:02PM
Originally posted by madmaxtorino madmaxtorino wrote:

Originally posted by Regul8r Regul8r wrote:

 
I would like to see a parts package or list to do my own here with my own radius rods.
I remember seeing someone post a how to and parts list, I have to go look.
 
 
Thanks Allan, That is the one I saw.
I will end up doing this here in the future too!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Regul8r Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-January-2015 at 1:06PM
The other thing I did today before putting the UCAs on was slotting the adjustment holes.
This was part of the conversation in the Tubular Control Arm discussion and I will put it there as well
 
Here is the fix to your lack of adjustment ability to get more Caster and keep proper camber.
FREE, and can be done in your driveway by jacking your car up under the LCA.
That will take the pressure off the UCA. Then just remove the UCA Shaft bolts, push the UCA out of the way, grind the slot, re-install and take it to the Alignment shop! 
 
The discussion of the tubular a-arms. You can see where the stock UCA shaft on the front sits. It is almost maxed out on the adjustment pushing the front back/out giving it all the caster/camber it could. That means when I dropped the nose and raised the ass I had no more adjustment to get to the caster where I would need it.
This also shows WHY many of our members are having difficulty getting the proper caster or even having a shop add a little to help with the handling. This shows that at STOCK setting it was maxed out! Driver side in these pics
 
Same side rear mount... sits pretty much center but with the front maxed you might get more caster by pushing the rear IN but that would give way too much negative camber, especially when you lower the nose with springs.
 
In the first pic you can see the mark I made to open up the front adjustment slot. Basically open it up to inline with the small hole on the right. A die grinder and a couple minutes...PRESTO! plenty of adjustment for caster AND camber.
 
Verify the slot is big enough for the bolt to slide all the way out to the end of the new slot. You can see how much more adjustment there is! 10 minutes of work!
this is a pic of the passenger side.
 
so, THIS is why I see no point other than "BLING" for spending money on re-engineered Tubular UCAs.
The UCA is not under enough stress that it deflects enough to warrant a need to go stronger either.
Again... JUST MY OPINION!
But this is a COMMON practice for Alignment techs to do when dealing with vehicles being raised or lowered OR crashed and twisted (I did it ALOT in the body shop when trying to get a collision repaired car to meet specs).
On My Dakota it was done when I lowered it. We do it with relocating the UCA Mounts on GM if longer bolts and PILES of spacers does not yield the result needed. We used to grind off the inner edge of the UCA and even grind some of the exhaust manifold on the Enduro cars to get the camber caster we needed/wanted.


Edited by Regul8r - 10-January-2015 at 1:12PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Bird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-January-2015 at 4:35PM
I did some further digging for information on the NASCAR front clip, this version is/was called a Banjo clip, made by Banjo Mathews. These were eventually upgraded to front-steer systems before "Car of Tomorrow" but variations were still in use on local tracks up here in the mid 90s.


Edited by Big Bird - 10-January-2015 at 4:39PM
The above post should be read in a "Grumpy Old Man" voice.
Almost forgot: "Get off my lawn!!!"
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