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Under factory valve covers roller rockers ?

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kenneth View Drop Down
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    Posted: 12-October-2010 at 3:13PM

I am looking for some input please , my intention is to fit roller rockers for keeping heat down and also for a performance upgrade but I intend to keep her externally “factory” looking being to retain factory valve covers , has anyone done this and knows what products to use ?

Your help is appreciated     

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-October-2010 at 7:56AM
there are several brands(YellaTerra, Scorpion, Ford Motorsport) of rockers that will bolt down to stock pedestals and might even fit under stock covers, but aftermarket 'tall' covers should do the trick if the stockers don't. if the stockers have drippers inside they may get in the way... there are also spacers that you can use to make room if you really want the stock cover look, i've also seen guys make their own tall covers using 2 sets of stockers or 1/2 stock & 1/2 aftermarket 
 
i've used cast M/T covers on mine with screw in studs & polylocks
 
 
just grabbed a set of real tall covers off ebay because i'm gonna use stud girdles this next build, hope they fit
 


Edited by Rockatansky - 15-October-2010 at 12:15AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kenneth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-October-2010 at 11:09AM

Thanks Rockatansky but I am just so sold on the idea of “under factory covers” that I don’t want to deviate from that , taking out internal baffles is not a problem just it all needs to be caped under current factory covers , sounds like you plan on pulling some serious horsepower out of ur girl .

my intentions are to lesion some heat issues , some HP gain all be it very little and add reliability , I also should ask people this question – how important is it to have hardened valve seats ??        

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stanman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-October-2010 at 12:14PM
I'm sure I can't find it again, but in an article or ad in a late 1971 magazine announcing the 351CJ for the 1972 Torino, one of the features was hardened valve seats. So the original engine for your Torino should have hardened seats. On the other hand, even regular seats should last for years in a collector car due to the fact that they are usually only driven a few thousand miles a year at the most. I've read that the lead once used in gasoline was required to lubricate the valve seats, also read that it wasn't required for this purpose.  I don't have enough first hand knowledge to advise one way or the other, but I do believe your heads will have hardened seats.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kenneth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-October-2010 at 12:25PM

Would be friggin very cool if they are suitable to run without lead as is , when my engine lands and I strip it ( in about a month ) I will get someone to take a look at them and advise due to I guess there would be no visible signs them being hardened for me to view , thanks for that  

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote antlerfiend Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-October-2010 at 12:40PM

Ken if you want to run factory valve covers you should look into the spacers. The ones I found were as much as buying aftermarket valve covers. I am keeping the stock look to my GTS.Thumbs Up

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kenneth View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kenneth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-October-2010 at 1:06PM

Thanks Alex , I just don’t want to have any visible variants , I do understand the spacers etc , I just don’t want any interference with factory air cleaner or visible external mods showing , you caught me deep in Google researching it so if I find something I will post it here         

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kenneth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-October-2010 at 1:37PM

These are “claimed” to fit under factory covers and for a Cleveland ( read it in another text ) , I just didn’t envisage spending this sort of coin , any thoughts ?

 

    http://www.harlandsharp.com/ford_v6_v8.htm

 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-October-2010 at 1:50PM
i have a Comp 306S for my 671 blower build, 640 lift and running Crane triple springs
 
i wouldn't sweat the hard seats, Ford literature does say they were induction hardened but i'd worry more about replacement inserts coming loose. there is an additive called 'Instead- O-Lead' if you're really worried, even if you run a very weak dose of additive it'd be better than not i guess
 
many guys are saying no problem under stock covers, probably many more posts but you get the idea. are you figuring bolt down style rockers or screw in studs? bolt downs should fit no problem
are you familiar with Yella Terra?
 
 
 
 


Edited by Rockatansky - 13-October-2010 at 1:59PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kenneth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-October-2010 at 2:17PM

Yella Terra have been in our circles for many years being an Aussie company and I had seen their site and claims , problem is the dimes required , I had thoughts of going this way assuming they would fit under

 

 http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=310260215051&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT

 

but reading it they say I need  NOTE: You need Studs and Guide Plates to Run Roller Rockers

so I would say I am pushing a warm liquid uphill with a sharp stick , I was prepared to separate with about $400 but anything above that I may as well ignore it

That engine forum site seems very informative , thanks for going to the effort  

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stanman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-October-2010 at 2:34PM
How about these? (forget how to make it a link Embarrassed)
 
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Ford-351C-460-ped-1-73-Scorpion-roller-rocker-arms-1024-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem4cf2154efbQQitemZ330478997243QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TopGear (TG) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-October-2010 at 2:38PM
About how much hp increase are we talking about here?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kenneth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-October-2010 at 3:09PM

Probably doesn’t apply to Cleveland but I had a look see at Youtube to find this  

 

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GbmXSK7VI0

 

There is claims of 10 and up to 20 % more GG’s but I am primarly looking for heat reduction .

 

Thanks Stan loaded them on my “sh*t I wannit list “ lol

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-October-2010 at 6:01PM
Originally posted by kenneth kenneth wrote:

I had thoughts of going this way assuming they would fit under

 

 http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=310260215051&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT

 
beware ProComp parts! PC2308 for the part number is the give away in that ad
 
i'd rather run good stock parts than possibly(likely) inferior ~stuff~
 
i know Yella Terra is proud of their work but are the Street Terra's over your budget? wow...
 
how much are Scorpions? or is it that tax thang again
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-October-2010 at 6:21PM
not sure if these are the same as above but they are the correct bolt down rockers for 351C
 
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Ford-351M-400-Scorpion-Roller-Rocker-Arm-Set-1-73-PED-/190446283761?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2c577babf1#shId
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kenneth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-October-2010 at 7:09AM
With all my EBay searches I didn't come up with these Scorpion ones ( not sure why ) I agree they would be better than Procomp and I read somewhere that people now only buy there non moving parts , thanks for the input guys I think I am sold on the ( Ford blue YAY ) Scorpion ones and they seem to meet my small budget , re the undercover thing I think I will make purchase and pray they fit , if not I am certain I can sell them on here and at least break even , Yella Terra is well beyond the budget , they want $1200.00 kiwi here and $800.00 Aussie dollar for the set , the Scorpion set will workout at approximately $500.00 kiwi landed in my hands and they are American made  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psquare75 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-October-2010 at 9:46AM
To chime in.

Yellow Terra makes good rockers, at least where the 385 series is concerned.

One of the engine guys on 460ford.com did a dyno test of before and after roller rockers.. and saw ZERO difference in power output....


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GranTorinoSport Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-October-2010 at 10:13AM
Originally posted by kenneth kenneth wrote:

With all my EBay searches I didn't come up with these Scorpion ones ( not sure why ) I agree they would be better than Procomp and I read somewhere that people now only buy there non moving parts , thanks for the input guys I think I am sold on the ( Ford blue YAY ) Scorpion ones and they seem to meet my small budget , re the undercover thing I think I will make purchase and pray they fit , if not I am certain I can sell them on here and at least break even , Yella Terra is well beyond the budget , they want $1200.00 kiwi here and $800.00 Aussie dollar for the set , the Scorpion set will workout at approximately $500.00 kiwi landed in my hands and they are American made  


Scorpions have a lifetime warranty. And they are good (I hear) about honoring that.

ProComps should be used with caution. When I ordered my engine, the builder (Carl) gave me the option of using ProComp heads. The heads, as assembled, have some issues (quality, etc), but Carl said the castings are acceptable, and he puts his own parts onto them (springs, valves, etc) and does hi own machining work on them. So, again, ProComp anything should probably have a little scrutiny and research before using in most instances.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GranTorinoSport Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-October-2010 at 10:15AM
Originally posted by Psquare75 Psquare75 wrote:

To chime in.

One of the engine guys on 460ford.com did a dyno test of before and after roller rockers.. and saw ZERO difference in power output....




I have wondered about that. I have read the test on Chevy small blocks in the 60's where the factory stamped rockers were robbing something like 70HP (I can't remember the exact number), but I can not imagine that is true for every engine and every combination.

If the Ford designs were good, then certainly would not be much of an effect is any.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kenneth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-October-2010 at 2:19PM

Rollers gota be better than factory rattlers ( rockers ) surely , noise reduction heat/friction reduction ease of getting her up in the rev range quicker etc , the benefits are massive ( well sorta/kinda ) in my mind excluding any “possible” HP increase , I will intend on doing hydraulic roller lifters as well but will need to research that too so if I can add another question into the mix here and ask this one –

Going hydraulic roller cam and lifters do I need this part to be engineered into the block to hold them from rotating ??

 

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/FORD-ROLLER-LIFTER-RETRO-FIT-KIT-302-351W-lifters-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem4cef520469QQitemZ330432644201QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories

 

I know it says Windsor but is the same true for Cleveland

 

Putting aside these due to cost http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270514279468&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

 

BTW found these and admittedly not thje FULL roller but worth consideration

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330483422249&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-October-2010 at 12:39AM
the factory Ford spider from the Windsor series can be used in a Cleveland block if the cam is pretty mild, otherwise the 'link bar' type lifters are the way to go
 
each particular Cleveland block needs to be inspected as to the depth that the top of the lifter bores are chamfered, some are deeper than others and can present a stability and an oil pressure loss problem with certain brand lifters. the 'oil band' on various brands and part numbers within a brand are at different heights on the lifter body and can either eliminate or further compound the problem of exposing the oil band at the top of the lifter bore. some cams use a 'reduced base circle' to avoid the oil pressure loss issue but then present a custom pushrod length issue
 
another problem with roller lifters in a Cleveland block is that many have a too large oil hole in the body, and in a bad location for the Cleveland oil lifter oil galley. best solution here is to bush the lifter bores(extra tall bushes also cure the oil pressure loss issue) and drill the bushes with a restrictive metering orifice that won't allow the lifters to flow excessive amounts of oil(all of it) to the top. more than a few guys have started out with incompatible lifters and had to either buy different lifters and/or bush the lifter bores
 
there are those that also say by experience that a roller cam won't make any more power than a flat tappet, a lot of work & expense for little/no gain?
 
i'm not sure i want to know what a roller cam would cost you over there Kenneth, by the time you have the heads done with the right springs, might need extended length valves, custom lenght P-rods, hopefully only 1 set of lifters & a cam.... Wow that could be a lot! over here guys spend over 1k-1.5k easily
 
but like i was sayin, a mild grind with factory Ford lifters in bushed bores would be the easy way to go if you're really set on it. www.tmeyerinc.com knows the ins & outs of what works & what doesn't in the Cleveland roller cam dept, i'd call him for sure. look around his page if you haven't seen it
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psquare75 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-October-2010 at 2:39AM
Kenneth, you're right. They DO have benefits regarding more allowable valve lift  and oil temperature control. I've seen all types (well, read about) of the full roller rockers falling apart at some point. I've never seen roller tips fail. 

FWIW, GM uses roller tip rockers in the LS engines. My gray Cougar, the guy that built the 460 used roller tip Comp Cams, and they have 60K+ miles (translate that to km, 100K?) and they are great. 

Edited by Psquare75 - 15-October-2010 at 2:41AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kenneth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-October-2010 at 5:57AM
Its becoming rocket science to me , I had visualisations of "fit it myself " parts but that's gone out the door BIG TIME , its all about ( for me ) bringing her into the twenty first century with the newer mechanical advantages of today but externally stock "looking" and primarily dropping some heat issues ,  its never going to be a "horsepower hero" and my budget doesn't extend to offering up my first borne child to the Gods of money .
A guy that owes me a favour ( he's a engine builder ) is going to measure it up for me for nothing to see if any holes are elongated / egg shape , based on his findings and what's required this may or may not free up funds to inject into something a bit more involved in the valve and cam area , I must plead to be relatively ignorant on these subjects hence I asked all the previous questions , I intend on getting his input as well but unfortunately it will be a low budget build Cry 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-October-2010 at 6:46AM
in the heat control dept, take a look at the factory Ford oil cooler they use on the P71 Crown Vic cop cars or locally available similar. it mounts in the lower radiator hose and runs oil lines from an oil filter adapter but the lower rad outlet is opposite side to make room 
 
i've never seen oil stay clean as long as my P71's does, that cooler's gotta be workingThumbs Up


Edited by Rockatansky - 15-October-2010 at 6:48AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kenneth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-October-2010 at 11:32AM
 
Interesting item that , I have seen the oil filter adaptors that are to re route / circulate oil out of the sump , I thought they were for a dry sump situation , my only concern is having the oil temperature below manufactures heat specks and it changing viscosity and it being detrimental , add to that I am not keen on an external item , my current radiator was purchased as a ""3 row"" circulation unit from out of the USA , its an aluminium unit too , admittedly that's not "factory looking" but it goes to show how bad my heating issues have been during our Summer , I installed a 16 inch electric fan as well ( yes it is on the inside of the bay and drawing air not blowing ) the big factory Ford fan including shroud was just not doing the business that includes the factory ( at that time ) radiator , I am not claiming that our climate here in New Zealand is hotter than yours , in fact it is cooler so WTF with my heating issues if this Torino has been driven in California / Nevada were the heats are considered extreme , must note that it has never been the thermostat as I have visited this many a time to the point I even ran without it , water pump is new so ""WTF"" , hence I want to save heating issues within the block if I can .
thanks for your thoughts
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-October-2010 at 9:51PM
any chance the lower hose is collapsing, does it have the spring inside it?
 
there was a guy that had the darndest time with overheating, he finally pulled the heads off and found the holes in the gaskets were clogged with loose scale from inside the block
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kenneth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-October-2010 at 5:40AM
"Dang" you are good , I would have never thought of the bottom hose and yes it has no spring inside , and the other good call of the lose scale , I personally have never had the heads off this engine and the water was murky , the engine that's on its way I intend on match porting just about everything including water ways based on the gaskets ( within reason ) and clearing any burs that are within reach within the orifices , sounds a bit stupid but its something I want to do for free flow on all and sundry , once all that and any possible machine work is done I will have it acid dipped , thankyou you have given me plenty to think about and look out for .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-October-2010 at 7:35AM
the spring is easily overlooked, especially if a new hose doesn't include it. i remember having to recover a spring from an old hose once, i had a hard time finding a good one. and yeah, that guy was at the end of his wits, he tried all kinds of new parts 3 times. sometimes exploratory surgery is the only way to find what's goin on... hope it's as simple as the spring for ya

Edited by Rockatansky - 16-October-2010 at 7:36AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eliteman76 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-March-2011 at 4:44PM
Getting to factory valve covers for looks:
Do what I was going to do, take 2 pairs of covers. Slice the rails off one set of pans, slice the top off the other set, slide top and bottom together, rails, sides, top, and weld together for a tall stock valve cover.
Then you can run rollers.
And, as far as the block, bush it for lifters, run bar type rollers, and have fun.


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