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1968 390 gt oil leaks

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jkluesner View Drop Down
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    Posted: 26-February-2021 at 4:12AM
Hello all, 

New member and just had my 68 Torino GT 390 shipped out from Indiana where I had it in storage for the past 15 years. It had been driving sporadically by my father, however it seems not enough. I had him take it to a good mechanic to go over it before he shipped it. He replaced the master cylinder, front calipers and a few others things. He also changed all the fluids. 

Once I got it out here and drove it home (~20 miles) it started leaking oil pretty bad. Looks like both valve covers and it is dripping of the bell housing, so hopefully no the rear seal. There is also buildup that looks like this has been ongoing possibly for a while now, but very slow. My father said he did not see any puddles in the garage where it was stored (that was with the older oil before the oil change). 

What would you all suggest-- replace valve cover gaskets, maybe put different oil in it? I am trying to find out what was used on the oil change to make sure it was not synthetic. Along that line, which oil would you guys suggest? I plan on using the zinc additive as well. 

It also appear to have pretty loose steering (lots of play in the steering wheel), so I will need to figure that out as well. 


Here is a pic of the car. 
1968 Torino GT 390 hardtop
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72 RS 351 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-February-2021 at 5:35AM
Nice car, I'm sure you will drive that a bunch and keep it going. The rear main seal is likely to have a minor leak, typically you live with that due to the R&R labor.

I'd hunt for the best valve cover gaskets you can buy. Find real steel core gaskets, and skip any cork gaskets. There will be some choices, any quality version should do.

The intake itself may have a blown out rear gasket, the back piece filling the gap to the block. Reach back there along the back edge of the intake, and see if you can feel the gasket or RTV if it was filled with that, and how much oil is there along that section. If the intake back rail is leaking badly, it is possible to fix that without removing the intake. I've done it on my old 85 Crown Vic 351W, it took a lot of cleaning and a thick smearing of Ultra Black RTV. That section is just a wall to keep the oil inside the engine, no forces except heat. Cleaned well, very well, RTV will stick and last forever there.

You can use any oil you'd like, but the engine needs the old Zinc additive stuff, for the flat tappet cam and lifters. A synthetic oil is never bad, but they do have more cleaning additives in them, so they will remove buildups that might have been keeping oil from escaping past worn out seals. So expect to find some seals leaking, the front and rear of course, all but the rear should be manageable in any case.
Don
73 Ranchero "Sport 72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000+ rpm 351-4V &4R70W
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jkluesner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-February-2021 at 6:11AM
Thanks for the suggestions and great tips. I have been trying to find good valve cover gaskets and the Eldelbrock 756 ones seemed to have good reviews, although I don't know if they are steel core. I am going to try and degrease the whole area to pinpoint any leaks other than the valve gaskets. 

My dad said where it had been parked for a few years (and driving only a little) did not have any oil puddles under it, however looking at the block below the valves it seems this has been leaking a while now. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72 RS 351 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-February-2021 at 8:02AM
I see there are lots of choices, and most mention cork, on Summit. I'd go with that 7568 part you mentioned. It looks to be a good material with some kind of internal more rigid core.

I'm sorry they don't have a steel type like what was stock on Fox Mustang 302's. I've been spoiled by those, they can last forever. What you found is the good kind in the middle quality gasket, way better than cork for sure.

Fixing leaks is often about cleaning many times as you trace the sources, and one at a time fixing them. Often some bolts are a little loose, and that can help to snug everything up.
Don
73 Ranchero "Sport 72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000+ rpm 351-4V &4R70W
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote handsofstone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-February-2021 at 9:54AM
As far as stamped pan and valve covers go, clean the surfaces really good. Then, flip the part over and hold the ball end of a hammer over the hole. Lightly tap the hammer with a mallet or piece of wood enough to push the metal so it is now concave. Just alightly, you are not smashing things. 
  This will assure the seal is 100%. Then use whatever gasket you want, it will not leak.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72 RS 351 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-February-2021 at 10:31AM
Cork gaskets leak in much shorter time than anything else, cork should never be used as a gasket material IMO. I'd never use cork even in an emergency, Ultra Black RTV is vastly better under any conditions than cork. I'd gladly make a gasket with RTV instead of using cork, and I have.

I've watched Subaru mechanics install dozens of valve cover gaskets, their OEM cork gaskets. They coated the VC surface completely with RTV, and after a short time, the rest of the gasket before bolting them to the head. The RTV sealed up the entire surface, and the cork was the core material. Over enough time, the cork shrinks and/or breaks down.

Without some other bonding/sealing material, cork always leaks. So why ever choose cork, it's terrible gasket material. It survives a factory warrantee period, usually, but that's not good enough.
Don
73 Ranchero "Sport 72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000+ rpm 351-4V &4R70W
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote handsofstone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-February-2021 at 10:36AM
In all the years I wrenched and built at Aamco, not many gaskets were anything other than cork. I used cork on my C6 but I think my valve covers are Fel-Pro rubber. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jkluesner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-February-2021 at 11:25AM
I can see that the current gaskets are cork, as the "tabs" stick out from the valve covers and are cork. I also took it for another spin today and the oil leaks have slowed way down. I'm currently not getting any drips. I will still replace the valve gaskets, but it does seem like perhaps the gaskets/seals are swelling back up a bit with it being run. 

Another issue I can into today was brake fluid leaking from a new master cylinder that was installed. I can see the line coming into the bottom port the the master cylinder is wet, and there looks like spray behind the drivers-side shock tower. I'll try and get a few pics and post them. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote handsofstone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-February-2021 at 11:29AM
Don't get brake fluid on the painted surfaces. If the line is rusted and flaking, replace it.

I would go through every piece of the braking system. Check the rubber at the front for cracking. Of all the parts to fail, brakes are not a good one.


Edited by handsofstone - 26-February-2021 at 11:47AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jkluesner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-February-2021 at 11:54AM
It looks like it has already gotten on the paint in spots. The lines do have rust, and looks like spray at what appears like a junction. Should I replace them all? Also looks like the new master cylinder is possible leaking out the top seal or along the bottom port area. 

The master cylinder was replaced as the brakes were "grabby" my dad said. The front calipers were also replaced. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72 RS 351 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-February-2021 at 11:56AM
Ditto, concentrate on the brakes first. Inspect all of the rubber hoses and the caliper piston seals if you can. Hopefully all of your hard lines are solid enough to not have to replace any of it. Then get new brake fluid through it, with a friend or a pressure bleeder.



The gasket-cork issue is old. I have replace my share of cork gaskets since the 70's, lots of times the gaskets were not too old really, but leaked(seeped) oil through them. That is maddening to see a gasket which leaks, but it shouldn't given its age, and the bolts being tight. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me etc. I was done with cork gaskets in the mid 80's, I damned them then, but people still make them. I can live without them, so I do. I suggest avoiding cork gaskets, the guy who owns the car ten years from now will appreciate it.
Don
73 Ranchero "Sport 72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000+ rpm 351-4V &4R70W
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jkluesner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-February-2021 at 11:56AM
also excuse the dirty engine compartment-- It's been sitting for 15 years. At one point it was show worthy-- I plan to get it back to that stage at some point. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72 RS 351 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-February-2021 at 12:02PM
Keep things nice and clean around where you are checking for leaks etc. It may be some wetness is from the MC change, and/or the top cover seal. Check if you can that the cover seal is working well, being crushed enough etc. That bottom line fitting looks like it might be a leak, the line looks a little bent at the fitting.

If you have to replace any line, try a pre-bent line of one exists in the right length with matching fittings. That'd be rare, so likely you would need to make it. NiCopp brake line is the best for making lines yourself, it's pliable and legal. Forming brake line ends for a fitting is tough but doable with a nice flaring tool.
Don
73 Ranchero "Sport 72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000+ rpm 351-4V &4R70W
73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V &4R70W for sale later.
92 Lincoln Mark VII SE GTC, OBDII 347/4R70W
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jkluesner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-February-2021 at 12:17PM
Yeah, a quick search online and I am going to have a hard time finding replacement lines. I found one company (inline tube) however I am afraid this will look no where near stock. I'm wondering if the mechanic bent that Bottom line when he installed the master cylinder Angry
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jkluesner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-February-2021 at 12:35PM
So I whipped off the fluid on the bottom of the MC port and drove it and cam back. Wet again. It's definitely a leak. I am thinking forming brake lines for a fitting is beyond my limited skill set, haha. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72 RS 351 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-February-2021 at 12:59PM
If it is a short line, that you could bend to shape with raw Nicopp, with the two fittings on it, take it to someone who can form the flared ends for you, and the bends of the line will allow it to fit easily. Long lines are a different matter, those usually have to be made(form the ends) in the vehicle.

I helped a friend about ten years ago with a MC swap, his 90 Lincoln LSC had a bad MC, and those are massive and complicated(TEVES brake system). One of his old lines(left front) would not come out of the MC, rounded the fitting off finally. I bought some Nicopp line locally, about three feet, and had a line bent up in about ten minutes. The ends took a good five minutes each, so the whole line was about an hour with driving to a local hydraulics business that carried the Nicopp line.
Don
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73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V &4R70W for sale later.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jkluesner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-February-2021 at 3:07PM
That sounds encouraging. Tomorrow I am going to clean what surface rust I can off the lines and see what shape they are in overall. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote handsofstone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-February-2021 at 3:50PM
Get the bending tool and a flare kit. Make a couple of test pieces and bend them to find the limit. The worst part is forgetting to put the nut on and making a perfect flare. Take your time. 

The master cylinder has seals that are simple to replace. Pull it out and return it for a new one. Once you have gone through all the brake components, you will be confident that it will stop like it is supposed to.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote handsofstone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-February-2021 at 3:52PM
You will most likely break the rubing on the fittings when removing the old ones. It is typical.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jkluesner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-February-2021 at 4:19AM
I did some crawling under the car last night and although large sections of the lines are ok, there is a lot of corrosion in places. I think I'm going to replace all of them just to be safe. I found a prefab kit (steel) made by inline tube that should be a direct match. $165 for all the lines and fittings. Anybody have experience with their products? 
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Are they stainless? No experience here except making my own.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-February-2021 at 6:36AM
so much for the good mechanic. replacing a master on a 1968 anything should've included the lines to the prop valve, just because.

you can see that the line is tweaked from the 1st try at loosening it, the 1st thing i'd do is loosen the tube nut and try to correct the angle of the line coming out of the master. it should be coming out straight down rather than the 10* angle it is now. hopefully the flare in the old line will reseal once it's put back straight.

next worst case you buy a short brake line with ends formed and nuts installed and bend it yourself, it's easy

next worst case you get yourself a complete brake line kit and install it yourself, or by a slightly better mechanic. this is one source, there are others
https://www.inlinetube.com/pages/product-list?year=4212202341531695823&make=1828299879717471912&model=4907562634040960157#?f=6883668340566495367|

if you don't have them, buy a couple tubing wrenches that cover the sizes of tubing nuts on your car or just grab a set. if you're going to replace a line straight away, just cut the tube coming out of the tube nut and use a 6 point socket rather than dick with the wrenches. a good pair of diagonal cutters will do the trick and you can right on the tube nut solidly with the socket

as far as the valve cover gaskets go, if the engine runs good and you don't intend to pull the covers off for rocker lash adjustment between rounds, i'd skip the gaskets and use just RTV silicone. get the surfaces very clean and oil free and the covers will stay on with no bolts, but use the bolts to locate the covers until the RTV sets LOL. but seriously, RTV won't leak, ever, if you prep the surfaces well

relax, you got this man!


Edited by Rockatansky - 27-February-2021 at 6:47AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jkluesner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-February-2021 at 7:42AM
Thanks for the suggestions. I loosened the nut and tried to straighten the line out. Hopefully this slows it down. On further inspection I also see it's leaking between the MC and the booster, so perhaps that seal is bad as well. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Bird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-February-2021 at 8:17AM
Shouldn't be any fluid there to leak. That would indicate a failed Master Cylinder
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-February-2021 at 8:56AM
could the fluid be migrating to the booster?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jkluesner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-February-2021 at 9:14AM
The old master cylinder was bad, so maybe I am just seeing the residual/damage from the old one. The bottom of the booster is all rusted with the paint stripped away, so I think it had been leaking there a while. See the pic below-- sorry it's rotated for some reason. MC is grey  

I have read about fluid migrating into the booster, however I feel the mechanic should have noticed this. I'm really thinking about replacing it all at this point (booster, MC, lines, etc). 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-February-2021 at 10:29AM
he probably noticed it and said Censored that doesn't matter

you can remove the 2 bolts that hold the master on and slide it forward a little to inspect for any quantity of fluid hanging out in the booster. soak up as much as you can with shop / paper towels and reinstall the master. dry the area with Brakleen or carb cleaner

do you love it as much as i do when somebody provides you a service and you have to do the job over besides cleaning up his mess to boot?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-February-2021 at 12:14PM
FWIW, I had an almost brand new master cylinder leak out the back seals too.  There are lots of made in China junk parts out there today, so it may be leaking even if just replaced.  Good call on replacing all of the lines, they look pretty rough.  I usually make my own lines, but I have heard good things about inline tube.  NiCopp is great if you do decide to make your own.  They are corrosion resistant and very easy to bend and flare.

Edited by 72FordGTS - 28-February-2021 at 6:20AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jkluesner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-February-2021 at 4:33AM
Yeah, the lines are pretty rough in some spots, look new on others. Overall the car body/frame has extremely little rust, as it was a Kansas car garaged it's whole life. During the 19 years I have had it it has only seen rain 2 times and never has been driven on a winter road with salt. I also sprayed the undercarriage when I got it. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-February-2021 at 6:18AM
i realized something when i wasn't even trying, i think the reason the leaking line is all bent out of shape is because you have the wrong master on the car. if i'm right your original master had the line coming out of the unused boss on the side like the rear line, not the down schnozzle. i read somewhere why the masters are different but that brain cell took a leave, it may have been hardtop / convertible or something to do with the brake config whether they're manual drum, power drum, manual disc/drum or power disc/drum i forget but there's a reason the master was different from the factory. different applications

what is your brake configuration?


or it could just be bent
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