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fordpower View Drop Down
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    Posted: 01-April-2022 at 8:21AM
neighbor Has a 302 crate motor,it is an 87.put it in his 64 falcon. would not idle under 1000 rpm with out a lot of rumble. firing order was different also, He was told it was an ho. He took it out and had a 64 289 rebuilt. It does not have roller lifters.(87 ) I mean.He wants 500 I wonder did the ho come without roller rockers .He was told it is an ho because it won't idle it smooths out around 1600 rpm.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72 RS 351 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-April-2022 at 9:33AM
The only 302's that didn't have roller cams/lifters in the later engines, were not desirable really, mid 80's Lincolns or truck etc. The roller engines are much more worth the trouble, the built in roller lifter block feature, better heads(E7 part number at least), and the HO's had forged pistons except for the end of the 93 model run.

If that engine doesn't have roller lifters, then there isn't a lot of parts you would want if you rebuild or improve it at all. I have a friend who had two of the non roller 302's, and someone gave him another one about ten years ago. I told him to think about getting rid of them unless he got a low performance 80's car that took that, and leave it stock etc.

If you needed any engine to get a vehicle running cheap, that might help you. But chances are you could find an Explorer 302 or less likely a 302 HO that isn't worn out(any 1988-1992 Mark VII should have a good engine regardless of mileage(automatic cars that weren't abused)).
Don
73 Ranchero Sport "72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000rpm 351-4V &4R70W
73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V 3.70 gears for sale later.
92 Lincoln Mark VII SE, OBDII 347/4R70W
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fordpower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-April-2022 at 11:22AM
Not looking for anything great. Just was wondering because he was told it was a ho because of the firing order and how rough it ran at idle.Its a crate motor he picked up 10 yrs ago when he bought out a ford dealer.All the tag said was 87 ford.Cost to freshen up my 302 would be more. I have a 90 markv11 that I have never heard run.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72 RS 351 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-April-2022 at 12:27PM
The firing order of all of the HO 302s, and all roller 302 or 351's, is 13726548, same as my old Cleveland order.

If your 90 Mark VII is stock, then that's the ideal 302 HO, forged pistons and roller cam. There are only three OEM roller cams, the HO, the truck cam, and the Cobra cam(which is made for 1.7:1 rockers, so it's not that special versus the HO cam).

The roller block and lifters are worth going after, but then the heads you would prefer the Explorer heads, and the Explorer intake.
Don
73 Ranchero Sport "72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000rpm 351-4V &4R70W
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fordpower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-April-2022 at 5:07AM
He said I would have to change cam because it idles so rough. I am going to take it as he wants both sets of my mag 500 14 in.and one set of rings.He is a ford guy but a purest. He said he would never put it in his cars. Said I will need atleast 2500 converter. At 77 who knows.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72 RS 351 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-April-2022 at 5:34AM
If it's not a roller engine, then I would scrap the cam anyway, and the intake, and heads if not E7's. The firing order goes with the cam and plug wiring, you can swap those as you like or need to. So if the engine is in nice condition, you can use the existing cam, if the firing order is matched to it, which means the plug wires on the distributor. That you can do in half an hour, figuring out what cam firing order it has, and then correcting the plug wire placement.

The engine wasn't running rough due to having the wrong cam or wiring the plugs wrong, they shouldn't run at all with those completely mixed up. Check the oil carefully for any non oil properties, such as fuel(thin oil).
Don
73 Ranchero Sport "72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000rpm 351-4V &4R70W
73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V 3.70 gears for sale later.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fordpower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-April-2022 at 6:27AM
We will see.He was told its an ho because firing order had to be changed to 351 in order to run. Its a crate motor.It came with dealership he bought out.. Tag said 87. I though all came with roller lifters this does not. It has never been run except when he installed in his falcon last mo. It needs oil pan timing cover flywheel and hermonic balance. 50 ozs . It would not idle under 1000 rpm. What the hell, thanks for the feed back
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72 RS 351 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-April-2022 at 8:22AM
I think all of the non roller SBF's kept using the odd firing order(odd to me, I grew up with the Cleveland order and never learned the other one), so double check how they wired up the distributor.

I'd check the cam also just to be sure, with the valve covers off you can watch the valves opening and tell which firing order it has. Being a crate engine it can have some odd parts that don't match what the description lists. They made some rare mistakes with those, rarely would something be incorrect with an actual production car. Just be wary, check it out to be sure, then make it work.
Don
73 Ranchero Sport "72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000rpm 351-4V &4R70W
73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V 3.70 gears for sale later.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fordpower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-April-2022 at 9:49AM
well 200 and my wheels and set of beauty rims I had no use for it ill own another 302. Depending how much the fly wheel and harmonic balance is i'll take it also. Something is not right for sure..Firing order is for an ho motor cam appears not to be stock. but no roller rockers. Have to get no. and see what they say. Worth as much as my wheels
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-April-2022 at 11:02AM
Ford sold Motorsport crate engines that were not stock replacements but street performance and full on race motors.

do you or your neighbor have the catalog part number for this engine?
72 GT Ute
   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fordpower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-April-2022 at 12:39PM
I will see,he got it when he bought a whole dealership 10 yrs ago. The tag said 87 302. That makes sense. He put it in his 64 falcon. would not run. Friend came over changed firing order to HO It ran but would not idle.He said I could have it for 500 because it would need cam changed. I said I would take it for 200 and my 2 sets of mag 500 and one set of beauty ring.What caught my eye was no roller rockers and it's black not blue.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fordpower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-April-2022 at 6:00AM
ok I swapped my rims mag 500 and a set of beauty rims for this motor and an a short axle for 8in.So I paid 200. Ok with that said will a reg 302 cam work in a ho motor,I was told no.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-April-2022 at 6:17PM
  not sure randy...bigbird would be your guy on this! i know sometime mid 80's they changed to roller cams and roller lifters idk if flat tappet cams interchange??? maybe, maybe not?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fordpower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-April-2022 at 3:39AM
Well I'll wait till I get it home,then run no.on block and heads etc an see what it is.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72 RS 351 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-April-2022 at 11:03AM
All of the parts will swap around on any 302 or SBF, but some parts are not worth the time or trouble. If it has the roller block lifter bolt bosses for the spider bracket for roller lifters, then never put a flat tappet cam in that. All of the 302 roller stuff drops right into that. Older Ford blocks also can have roller lifters etc, but you have accept the $500 price of the special drop in lifters.

The later blocks and the spider bracket(or Explorer 302 paired lifter brackets), those lifters are $250 or less the last I looked. Roller lifters can be used like most parts, mileage is all that matters. If you find roller lifters with 50-100k miles for a good deal, use them.
Don
73 Ranchero Sport "72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000rpm 351-4V &4R70W
73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V 3.70 gears for sale later.
92 Lincoln Mark VII SE, OBDII 347/4R70W
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fordpower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-April-2022 at 1:30PM
That is what was confusing.It is an 87 motor so it is tapped for roller cam etc. the firing order is for an HO. He was using it because it was a crate motor.It had to much cam. He purchased the fly wheel front balance 50oz and a reg 302 grind. Then he found out that the cams were not the same. So he pulled it and had the 289 right yr rebuilt. I do not know if it had roller lifters but it does not have roller rockers? For 200 and wheels I did not need I took it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72 RS 351 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-April-2022 at 3:19PM
Then all you need is a nice matching set of roller cam, lifters, and one of the two kinds of lifter holders which keep them straight in the holes. Be sure the balancer and flexplate are 50oz each, and it will run as it should with the 13726548 firing order.

The prior owner must have mixed up one of those things, like the firing order to the camshaft, or how the distributor was wired up. It's sounds like a great engine to build, very low mileage on the block, it can handle anything up to the mild power limit of those stock blocks.
Don
73 Ranchero Sport "72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000rpm 351-4V &4R70W
73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V 3.70 gears for sale later.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fordpower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-April-2022 at 3:55AM
will see what transpires. Question are the cams for 302 and HO different.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72 RS 351 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-April-2022 at 4:20AM
The roller cams were all 13726548 firing order, and the old 302/351W flat tappet cams were all the other order, 15426378 I think. I think after the mid 80's the flat tappet cams stayed the same in firing order, but those were all in plain models and never got attention in car forums. For the low cost and easy swap, people just toss the flat tappet parts and use an HO cam etc, and wire the plug wires to match the cam.

Everything is the same but the cam and firing order, plus the lifters/pushrods. A roller cam makes use of stronger valve springs, but in stock low lift engines, I think a roller cam could work okay with flat tappet springs that are new. For an engine you work on a bit(changing the cam is a notable work project), that justifies installing new valve springs, even a stock cam replacement spring kit is fine. Those used to cost about $110 from Alex's parts, but I think they have gone up to about $150. You need better than stock retainers, thus most kits will include better retainers to match the springs, plus keepers and seals.
Don
73 Ranchero Sport "72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000rpm 351-4V &4R70W
73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V 3.70 gears for sale later.
92 Lincoln Mark VII SE, OBDII 347/4R70W
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fordpower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-April-2022 at 12:27PM
Well what ever it is,Its new and cheaper than having my 302 taken apart an checked.1600 to 2200 just to clean hone out look for any damage.This motor smoked white on right side. Heads checked out ok.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fordpower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-April-2022 at 5:39AM

well neighbor dropped off my motor yesterday. Never said a word. Found it this morning thank God it did not rain. Well I went looking for no it has none. It does have a block id tag 242507 the heads have a tag no no. 565394 564393 ? crank is 2 MAE. so all I know is its a 302 with W firing order.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fordpower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-April-2022 at 9:28AM
well found it. It's an 87 truck motor e7te.As for the heads nothing. has single springs. What the tag no. mean I have no idea.the tags are tac welded to the heads and block.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72 RS 351 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-April-2022 at 9:36AM
Well it may be or should be the E7 heads the same as most 302's of the late 80's and early 90's. With low mileage it should be very good for any mild 302 build and almost any popular parts will go in it, or onto it. I'm not sure if the roller lifters will go into that block, if it has the bosses to drill and tap the spider bracket that holds the lifters down straight. Take a picture of the intake valley when you get a chance.
Don
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73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V 3.70 gears for sale later.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Bird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-May-2022 at 3:24PM
After 85, the only 5.0/302s that didn't have roller cams were trucks/vans.
HOs and trucks got E7 heads, C.V./Grand Monkey/Town Car kept the E6s for a while.
302/5.0 NON-HO used the original 302 firing order (trucks too).
351W and 5.0 HO used the 351W firing order, roller or flat tappet.
Early GT-HO 302/5.0 flat tappet used an old 70s Torino 351 cam grind.
Ford Motorsports sold a LOT of different cams for these engines.
Any 5.0 block later than 86 SHOULD have provisions for roller cam even if it was originally a flat tappet cam. Do not use the flat cam springs for a roller cam. Lifters are a bit heavier, and valves may float/lifters bounce/destroy cam/lifters/valves/seats...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fordpower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-May-2022 at 4:50AM
Well we know it is an 87 truck e7te the heads had a no a letter and two more no. best guess was yr 8 letter nov no.23 single springs non roller lifters. Cam unknown as he threw it out. Tempted to pull a head and see what pistons it has,then again what does it matter. Its a rebuilt never really run.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Bird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-May-2022 at 10:13AM
If it's a rebuilt, all bets are off. Could be almost any random parts in almost any random combination.
Lo-Po car pistons have smaller dish/no dish than HO pistons (except 1986 HO, which used flat top pistons with valve reliefs). Not sure what pistons went in truck engines with the E7 heads.
E6 heads are not a good starting point for a performance build.
If you pull a head, look at the underside of the head intake side near the center for E7TE-(number)
85-up blocks should have taller lifter bores and a set of holes down the center for the lifter spider for roller cams. Holes line up with the cam bearings, and may crack or bottom out against the cam bearings.
(Common problem with 351W roller blocks)
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How the Heck does a REGULAR CAB SHORTBED weigh over 5200 pounds?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote handsofstone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-May-2022 at 2:01PM
An endoscope is maybe $15. Pull a plug and stick it in. Easier that pulling a head off.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fordpower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-May-2022 at 1:10PM
bought one both pistons look the same. So I have an 87 302 with unknown heads yr 8 mo 11 day23. It had a windsor firing order with single spring reg rocker heads. Oh with a double roller chain. Thanks for the input
      
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