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302 vs 351C vs 351w

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ilyes View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ilyes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: 302 vs 351C vs 351w
    Posted: 13-July-2011 at 3:32AM
So my friends, it's been a month i've been thinking really seriously about my future Torino.
It will be a 1973 Formal Roof, but engine wise, not so sure where to go.
I want to stay in a small block world, big block are too heavy and don't spin enough for me.

Here's my question, which base would you retain for an all performance build, i need to be able to spin up to 7k, and all the power will start after 3k.
For those who remember my 302, let's say it will get more steroids Big smile

I plan on building a week end warrior torino, it will be pretty light weight ( no crazy mods though)

I will have a limited budget for the engine tranny.

Tranny will be either a C6 or T5, i kind like the stall converter, sounds really pretty when you step in it

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Blueoval76 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-July-2011 at 3:37AM
You need to go with a 351W for sure. You cant spin a 302 for long at 7K unless you get a Dart or Sportsman block. If you want a stroker do a 408W and you will make in the ballpark of 700+ horse. I like the cleveland but it is far too expensive to build like the windsor.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote inenidok Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-July-2011 at 8:38PM
you will be more then likely happy with the 351 w, now you can build a 302 to really perform as long as you use the gridle kit top and bottom, what we used on street rods back east, if not the block will split right in half, under the intake and i mean it will crack there that is the weakest part of the block,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ilyes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-July-2011 at 2:44AM
my concern is also the weight of the block, is there a lot of differences between the windsor 302 and 351
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stanman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-July-2011 at 3:31AM
Ford 3.8 V6-90 351 (4) (w/start, alt, less clutch)
Ford 170-250 L6 385 (except Australian w/aluminum head)
Ford 240-300 L6


Ford flathead V8 525

Ford flathead V8 569 (1) ('53 239 CID)
Ford Cosworth DFV 353 (2) (racing engine, DOHC, 3.0L)
Ford SOHC modular V8


Ford DOHC modular V8


Ford 255 Windsor 468 (4)
Ford 289/302 V8 460
(late 5.0s are a bit lighter)
Ford BOSS 302 500

Ford 351 Cleveland 550
(includes BOSS and Australian 302-C)
Ford 351 Windsor 510

Ford Y block V8 625
(272-312 CID)
Ford FE big block 650
(332-428 CID)
Ford FE big block 670 (1) ('59 352 CID)
Ford 429/460 V8 640

Ford BOSS 429 680
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
(iron block, aluminum heads)


Edited by stanman - 22-July-2011 at 3:33AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stanman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-July-2011 at 3:35AM
I don't know how accurate the list in the previous post is, I copied it from a website. The number in the second column is weight in pounds.
 


Edited by stanman - 22-July-2011 at 3:39AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote occupant Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-July-2011 at 5:36AM
I may have lost some weight going from the 351M to the 351C. I believe a 351M weighs about 600-625lbs. Not on this list, though.

Certainly without the AC equipment in place, my front end is lighter, but it would probably be best if I took all those parts out of the trunk and put them in the shed. Because I have a shed now, and I should be using it before my wife attempts to take it over. And my rear end sags with all those manifolds and bellhousings and all that AC stuff in there.

Looks like only a 50lb difference. Negligible to me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-July-2011 at 7:08AM
there is not much differnce in weight between the 351W and 351C but I would rather have a 351CJ over a 351W. I prefer the 351 Cleveland as they have much bigger heads?valve size and CC then The Windsor motor which meens you can make more hp easy with a Cleveland but I suggest a 70-71 Cleveland when they had more horsepower from the factory as later Clevelands got detunded and had less horsepower. There have been many builds in magazines with builds of 500 hp and up.
The stock 2v heads have bigger valves then the Chevy 2.02 heads that all the Chevy guys want for thier 350's as the 2v Cleveland has 2.04 intake 1.67 exh ilyes read this and it should help you figure out that a Cleveland is the better candidate
http://home.comcast.net/~jelerath/mustang/Specs/heads-fr.html
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ilyes View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ilyes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-July-2011 at 9:08AM
i'm gonna check how much each engine cost to build them up and i'll make my choice.
But it will be definitely a performance build, a lot better than my last engine
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 73GTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-July-2011 at 9:25AM
351 Cleveland! Best small block choice period!!
Jim


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-July-2011 at 10:08AM
have you ever heard that the Battle Plan Never Survives First Contact ?
 
you'd ignore a swinin deal on a 72 Formal, a 72/73 Sportsroof or a solid 74-6?
 
 
if it came with a Cleveland after you decided on a Windsor you'd change out a good block?
 
if you shop around Cleveland are not significantly more to build than a W, and 302's should turn rpm easier than any 351 due to lighter smaller internals and less crank throw but they're not gonna make the same power
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-July-2011 at 10:11AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ilyes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-July-2011 at 10:19AM
i still can't afford a car now, i'm currently looking for a new job as they keep cutting hours, i'm down to less than 15 hours a week now, so it's not that i don't want to buy a car, i just can't.
I think i will stick to a 302 as i want to spin it fairly high, and what ever weight i save from the front end is good.

I'm just checking as i need to built a budget for the car.
It won't have any interior so i just need a rolling chassis, if engine is in there, it's even better.

I'll let you know when i came across one boys


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-July-2011 at 10:20AM
Originally posted by 73GTS 73GTS wrote:

351 Cleveland! Best small block choice period!!


+1 , yes there is a man who knows a good engine       
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ilyes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-July-2011 at 10:32AM
let's compare the building budgets than

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-July-2011 at 10:41AM
well first of all it depends if you have to buy the engine or buy a Torino with the engine of choice in it.
Clevelands will cost more to buy as it was a 4 year engine
Windsors are a dime a dozen and can buy them cheap

Cheaper does not equal Quality
you get what you pay for so budget wise they won't compare
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 73GTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-July-2011 at 10:41AM
No comparison. You get more bang for the buck with a Cleveland. Period.
Jim


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-July-2011 at 11:55AM
1970-74... 5 years
 
and not significantly more expensive to build than a comparable Windsor
 
on a budget it would rediculously foolish to start fresh, let somebody else take the kick in the nuts and just buy their project for pennies on the dollar
 
here's a budget build for ya


Edited by Rockatansky - 22-July-2011 at 11:59AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-July-2011 at 12:16PM
well around here and some I have seen on craigslist early year Cleveland 4v's are going between $500 to $800 and that is a stock motor and still needs the rebuild and performance upgrades. It would be cheaper to buy a Torino with a Cleveland even if it is a 2v motor which the 2v heads are more streetable then the open chamber 4v heads.The Aussie 2v heads are said to be the best for a Cleveland build but finding them in the states is rare and expensive.I have a 74 351C 2V engine that Came from a Ranchero and will not part with it as it will be slated for a 2dr Torino Delivery Wagon build after my 72 GTS is finished.I'm gonna go out west and get a 72-73 Torino wagon out of the junkyards as have seen a few Andy posted in a yard not far from him.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 302ford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-July-2011 at 1:33PM
Originally posted by ilyes ilyes wrote:


I want to stay in a small block world, big block are too heavy and don't spin enough for me.

Here's my question, which base would you retain for an all performance build, i need to be able to spin up to 7k, and all the power will start after 3k.

 
Ilyes, Can I ask why you wish to rev so high?
 Sure you can build a 302 to rev 7k + and make 450-500hp but why? It will surely be expensive, and to make power  that high bottom end power will suffer. Which will be less enjoyable to drive on the street. 

Originally posted by ilyes ilyes wrote:

I want to stay in a small block world, big block are too heavy
I plan on building a week end warrior torino, it will be pretty light weight ( no crazy mods though)

If you truly wish to stay small block, I would recommend at least a 351w or c. Not that much more weight. Nearly the same as stock if you go aluminum heads.

Originally posted by ilyes ilyes wrote:

I will have a limited budget for the engine tranny.


If so. Why waste money on expensive valvetrain when a few more cubes can easily make up the power?

Dont get me wrong, I really love smallblocks aswell. And my 408 makes power till 6300. But having the cubes to provide power down low is 10x more fun and I envy those guys with big blocks even more that have my peak torque at curb idle rpm.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote occupant Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-July-2011 at 7:05AM
302ford makes excellent points...although I have to play devil's advocate and truly think ilyes would enjoy a stout 331 build. Can still be done on a budget, in fact if you look around long/hard enough and don't ignore some things, you can buy a nice stroked 302 engine (331 or 347), sometimes sitting in a fox body mustang wrecked or not, for less than the build cost of a regular 302. 331 would be better to spin up high. It will have the torque of a Honda, but it'll scream.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ilyes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-July-2011 at 7:31AM
I'm more a japenesse than big v8 fan, my idea of a nice engine is a straight 6 with a big turbo that kicks in only around 4-5k.
Big block are definitely not for me, way too heavy in the front.
I'm gonna do some research and see what can i get.
Goal is to have a really light torino while keeping the factory body, but i can trash interior, wheel well and other.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Blueoval76 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-July-2011 at 1:18PM
I have to agree with Occupant on the fact that you can buy a 331/347 for WAY less than the build price. I spent a lot on mine and I shopped around big time. I would not run a stroked 302 in a stock block though and that is why I would do the 351W. One key item to your build is Custom Cam! Makes a world of difference as I have first hand expierence.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ilyes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-July-2011 at 1:46PM
i agree, i thought the cam i had was gonna be big, but it wasn't at all, i was expecting a harder drive ability and worst idle
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-July-2011 at 3:03PM
Originally posted by Rockatansky Rockatansky wrote:

... it would rediculously foolish to start fresh, let somebody else take the kick in the nuts and just buy their project for pennies on the dollar
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 302ford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-July-2011 at 6:52PM
Of course!

And dont forget the turbo option on a 302. Huge torque down low, and the ability to make some big hp numbers up top!
But now we're getting a bit greedy.....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kenneth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-July-2011 at 11:55PM
 
Oh !!! and GO THE CLEVO
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ilyes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-July-2011 at 2:24AM
very interesting, 302/351 shares the same dimensions
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote occupant Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-July-2011 at 3:16AM
Also remember your build with the high stall converter on a C4, and all the cam and everything else you put into it, got stupid high gas mileage.

I'd kill for 20 out of my car and here you are pulling 22-24.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-July-2011 at 10:54AM
Originally posted by ilyes ilyes wrote:

very interesting, 302/351 shares the same dimensions
 
is that the 302C & 351C ?
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