5/6 speed conversion from top loader |
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Eliteman76
Admin Group Joined: 20-March-2006 Location: Nebraska, USA Status: Offline Points: 5044 |
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Posted: 03-February-2013 at 3:33PM |
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Guys, I'd like to see what info is out there on conversion from the top loader to a newer manual trans.
IE=TKO600 I've been looking around the last week, and I'm seriously planning on converting over my top loader. I'm just tired of not running deeper gearing and getting passed by a Prius at 75. I'd like to keep the side track conversations limited and to the point...my coil spring thread sort of went waayyyyy sideways and scattered at times. {no offense just noticed things got spread out} I've noticed on ebay, a seller AMP Performance has a number of offerings and options. Here is what I had emailed, and his reply:
From: eliteman76 To: ampperformance Subject: Details about item: eliteman76 sent a message about TREMEC TKO 600 TCET-5008 OR TCET-4617 FORD BASIC KIT #370656226690 Sent Date: Feb-01-13 22:22:18 PST
In this reply, one of the things I was not aware of is a TKO600 is a 26 spline input, which means my HD clutch kit is unable to be reused. So, I am looking at needing replace my clutch kit.
Clutch kit options for street
Installation issues:
Now, another option that caught my attention is the Keisler Engineering, all new design. Information off their site shows a blurb about it being based off the t-45/t-56 transmissions. Their "Perfect-fit" manuals avoid issues of cutting and butchery of the floor pan / trans tunnel. I did email them this weekend about what they have to offer. I also discussed things with American Drivetrain they advertise on a few forums I reside on and see a fair amount of their stuff advertised on Speed and Spike network car shows. Side things, looking around, google searches, forum searches, notice 2-3 shift issues mentions on the TKO. I did look into an upgrade on the TKO for the synchronizer rings, and the pads for the shifter forks. Overkill? Possibly. But I like to bangshift my car. Old habits die hard. I'm looking to build a better consolidation for updating manual transmissions. If needed, we can do a separate thread for auto-to-manual conversions, but I'd like to keep this one on topic. Curious on thoughts here. Lastly, I know a lot of things depend on how a car is set up, but tire size, and rear end gearing as well. I've considered a couple options for myself, and debated about running my 3.50 gearing again. Part of me wants to bump up higher though...run a 3.73 or a 3.89 ratio. With a .63/.64 OD, the rev's would be tolerable at highway speed, and...well, fun as hell on take off. |
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Andrew:GTS.ORG admin, '72 Q code 5 speed Restomod
Pondering: #99Problems |
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Ron Earp
Senior Member Joined: 06-November-2010 Location: Cary NC Status: Offline Points: 260 |
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Good thread. I don't have info to contribute but will be watching it with interest.
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Psquare75
Admin Group Member of the Stroker Club Joined: 26-November-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4591 |
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IMO, Call Mike Fortes.
http://www.fortesparts.com/ |
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Paul
77 XR7 460/C6/3.00:1 *SOLD* 78 XR7 523/C6/3.5:1 79 F100 460/TKO500/3.25:1 'I also have some left over potatoes-I understand you can generate electricity from them'- Foote500 |
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Ron Earp
Senior Member Joined: 06-November-2010 Location: Cary NC Status: Offline Points: 260 |
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Good stuff. I like this:
I wouldn't mind doing it to my Lightning when I go manual with it in a couple of years. Also would be good for a Z bar replacement.
Edited by Ron Earp - 04-February-2013 at 3:41AM |
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Grumpy
New Member Joined: 10-October-2012 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 34 |
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Hello,
I don't know much about converting to 5/6 speed but a friend of mine had tried to deal with Keisler for one of their perfect fit packages for his Chevelle. They originally gave him a lead time of six weeks which he was ok with and he send a large deposit to secure his place in line. Well, six weeks came and went and they said it was a supplier issue but parts were due any day. This went on a few times and he finally gave up, demanded his deposit back and that became an issue even though they "had a lot of people wanting the unit". He finally got his money and just bought his tranmission somewhere else and did a little work on the tunnel and is happy with the swap. I don't remember where he bought the trans but if needed I can find out. Remember his is a Chevy. Mike |
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Grumpy old man
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mcford
Senior Member Joined: 31-May-2003 Location: Utica, Michigan Status: Offline Points: 2160 |
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d&d performance.
http://www.ddperformance.com/ if you have a place local that BUILDS clutches, they can make what you need. you can use existing bell with the spacer/adapter plate NPD sells and it should put the shifter right where it needs to be. been awhile but i looked at this option on my old 4 speed car before i sold it. |
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Mike
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unlovedford
Senior Member Joined: 17-December-2010 Location: Tennessee Status: Offline Points: 10142 |
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We have a place here called Felton's clutch. They can build/ship anything clutch/PP/TO bearing related that you would want. Custom, extreme duty, whatever - they can do it. I've used their units in the past, and although pricier than OTC Autozone items, you won't have any worry. To me, an extra couple hundred bucks for complete setups that will last without worry is better than "Lifetime guarantee" things that require repeated pulling of transmissions for replacement.
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Joe
1972 Mom's Squire Wagon 1972 Torino Wagon 1976 Torino 1968 Cougar XR7-First batch 1972 Torino 460 1989 BroncoII/Jeeps/Titanimous Popeye and Brutus (Rams) |
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Billy C
Senior Member Joined: 10-February-2010 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Status: Offline Points: 948 |
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wow! was just researching this now. Hope to put a TKO600 behind my new big block build.
The info I have come up with so far.... Yes, it seems as if the TKO600 is only 26 spline for the most part but the TKO is super modular. Replacement input shafts are available for different applications but I don't know what else makes a 600 different from a 500 that it would be worth getting the 600 and putting the weaker input shafts in it. It seems like all the OEM big block stuff, even heavy duty truck applications, had the 10 spline all through the 70's. I think the OEM bell housing for the Toploader/T5 will work with a shorter input shaft TKO, but the shorter input shaft is only available in 10 spline from what I can see. Thinking about it, what is the real difference? If the stock 10 spline toploader input shaft hasn't been destroyed yet then a swap to a 10 spline TKO shouldn't make a difference, just essentially give you smother shifts and a highway gear. I don't know. Just a thought. Also drive shaft lengths and the output shaft spline is something to consider maybe?? Transmission cross member may need moved and modified??? I'm sure wiring would be a no brainier to figure out as far as rev lights go... maybe not. I believe the TKO takes a variety of speed-o drive gear options. As long as the OEM cable is long enough it should mate with the transmission just fine. I'd be going from automatic to manual so my switch might be slightly more complex than manual to manual but I won't get into that. I hope I'm not providing any incorrect info. Just trying to share what I have found through my research. Edited by Billy C - 04-February-2013 at 5:03PM |
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-Billy Conturo
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Eliteman76
Admin Group Joined: 20-March-2006 Location: Nebraska, USA Status: Offline Points: 5044 |
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Some good additional info.
I'm going to spend my lunch today checking with Paul's suggestion. I did spend an hour yesterday discussing more detail with Tom at AMP. He had a 72 Gran Torino, but it was a fully optioned automatic car, her never bothered to convert it. Fom some of the things I read online for a FORD conversion, you are able to reuse the drive shaft, the tailstock is the same length. *edit* The cross member was something I did not check into. Placement should be the same, but worse case, weld plates to the frame, and slide the cross member back a few inches. If I ultimately have to clearance my tunnel, so be it. In my case I want my factory console, it's comfortable. I did discuss the 2-3 shifting issue which I saw online that could be an issue. This if dor drag racers, etc, doing 6500+ rpm shifts, which that kit is made for. As I have honestly a mild engine combo, and the Original top loader is rated to I want to say 375 foot lbs. of torque, I figure I should not have concerns over the 500 foot lbs. rating on the TKO500. Tom said he has been running the 500 for some time now in a late 60's mustang with a combo pushing around 450 foot lbs, and no issues shifting around 5800 RPM with a stock TKO. Here is my bill of material based on the discussion we had. My total is at $2425.00 for my conversion. If I can reuse my flywheel, clutch kit, bellhouse, and maintain my linkage setup for now, then honestly, I'm quite happy about it. Even better is I can reuse my original Hurst comp-plus shifter handle and T shifter. ------------------------------ Andrew, hi, good afternoon. 1.) TKO 500 TCET4615 $2195 2.) Tremec shaft kit installed $200 3.) Spicer slip yoke $0 *free* 4.) Reverse/back up light pigtail harness $20 5.) 21 tooth red speedo gear $10. If you have any further questions please let me know. Thanks, Thomas Thompson Vice President 602-437-2727 ex105 800-454-8387 ex105 23 Years Service Tom Thompson Vice President 602-437-2727 ex105 800-454-8387 ex105 22 Years Service ------------------- I'll take a Edited by Eliteman76 - 05-February-2013 at 5:42AM |
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Andrew:GTS.ORG admin, '72 Q code 5 speed Restomod
Pondering: #99Problems |
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Eliteman76
Admin Group Joined: 20-March-2006 Location: Nebraska, USA Status: Offline Points: 5044 |
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I called and spoke with Mike. Another very straight forward guy, good at understanding what is realistic, and what will help. I am at the same basic deal, $2500 shipped to my door.
Now of course is the issue of waiting for the chance to buy it. Got told need to make sure we fix some stuff on the house. Darn excited though. |
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Andrew:GTS.ORG admin, '72 Q code 5 speed Restomod
Pondering: #99Problems |
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cj's72torino
Member Joined: 30-June-2010 Location: ohio Status: Offline Points: 39 |
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Hi Eliteman. Wow, it's been a while since I've been on here. Anyways, I have a 351c based engine with the TKO 600 trans. I used the stock 4 speed linkage and bellhousing. My flywheel is billet and the clutch plate is iron. I tried the organic one first, but fried it due to the hp and weight of the car. Both are from RAM. I went with their suggestions, but don't have the part numbers on hand. Should be able to go with a standard clutch behind a mild build. I had to get a new driveshaft for mine as it just missed fitting. I didn't bother hooking up the reverse lights, but probably wouldn't be too difficult. Stock speedo cable fits just fine and no mods to the tunnel with the stock TKO shifter. I did use a poly trans mount which I modified to work with the stock crossmember. Raised up the tailshaft a little, but fit fine. For what it's worth...CJ
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Billy C
Senior Member Joined: 10-February-2010 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Status: Offline Points: 948 |
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Yes! I am sure this will help lots of people. Confirms my bell housing thought
Do you know if you have the 10 or 26 spline input shaft? Short or long?
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-Billy Conturo
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cj's72torino
Member Joined: 30-June-2010 Location: ohio Status: Offline Points: 39 |
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I used the 26 spline input. The tailshaft is standard length. If you look at the Tremec website, it lists this as a Ford application. The only difference I found from the Toploader was the input shaft being a 26 vs. 10 for the Ford unit. Any aftermarket clutch supplier should be able to set this up when you give them the application. I think I used a C6 yoke instead of the 4 speed one. The one interesting think was using GM Syncromesh trans fluid in the unit. Expensive!
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Carl
Member Joined: 21-March-2010 Location: Colorado Spring Status: Offline Points: 191 |
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Another option....build a bigger engine.
500 lb/ft x 3.89 gears = 1945 lb/ft to the ground 650 lb/ft x 3.00 gears = 1950 lb/ft to the ground |
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Eliteman76
Admin Group Joined: 20-March-2006 Location: Nebraska, USA Status: Offline Points: 5044 |
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My thing, I'm not interested in going to a big block.
I'd just as well start fresh, and go with a 6.2 from a raptor. Anyways, both of the trans guys I had discussions with said overall length should not change. This is including reusing the bell. |
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Andrew:GTS.ORG admin, '72 Q code 5 speed Restomod
Pondering: #99Problems |
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1976grantorino
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Im currently putting a TKO 600 (TCET4617) In my 76 big block gran torino. Im using a clutch hangar from a 72 gran torino. Ive mocked the eng/trans up in the car using the quick time bell housing (RM8010) and it all fits as if ford knew I was gonna do this! Engine to firewall cleared. No cutting on the tunnel either. I didnt get a chance to mock the trans crossmember though.
The stock brake booster will not fit so im using a 78 lincoln hydro boost setup($120) other aftermarket units cost a couple hundred dollars. This unit bolts right in! Too good to be true! Well BBF valve covers hit thereserve canister so I flipped mine upsidedown. When I flipped the unit upside down. Only 2 of the 4 studs in the brake booster would fit in the clutch hangar so I ddilled the 2 needed holes and everything fits nicely. The brake pedal stud that connects to the booster shaft will need to be moved a little. After talking to mcleod in great length. Ive purchased the fallowing clutch master cylinder 139302, throughout bearing 1406-30, RST street twin clutch 6911-07, steel flywheel 463222, |
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unlovedford
Senior Member Joined: 17-December-2010 Location: Tennessee Status: Offline Points: 10142 |
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Excellent info!
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Joe
1972 Mom's Squire Wagon 1972 Torino Wagon 1976 Torino 1968 Cougar XR7-First batch 1972 Torino 460 1989 BroncoII/Jeeps/Titanimous Popeye and Brutus (Rams) |
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Eliteman76
Admin Group Joined: 20-March-2006 Location: Nebraska, USA Status: Offline Points: 5044 |
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Nice info to hear. I was surprised when I saw an updated post.
In my case my top loader is starting to make noise in 2nd and 3rd gears. I am pulling it out this winter and prettying I don't have pieces of syncronizer brass in the bottom of the main case. I still want to go with a TKO but I've had some great conversations over the summer about a few other options. I also kicked around the gearvendors over/under drive but then I'm still stuck with a long throw toploader. I also was reconsidering my gearing after driving my mom's 2000 GT mustang 5 speed last winter and this spring. 3.31 gearing still allowed smoky burnouts but GREAT highway cruising RPM's. |
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Andrew:GTS.ORG admin, '72 Q code 5 speed Restomod
Pondering: #99Problems |
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72GTS351CJ
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Can't say enough about gear vendors. Best investment I made. yes on the long throw shifter but you still have the factory look with factory console. Good luck. Rick
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72GTS Clint Eastwood Special
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Eliteman76
Admin Group Joined: 20-March-2006 Location: Nebraska, USA Status: Offline Points: 5044 |
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Rick how does the operation work on that?
Any video? And how is your car set up? |
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Andrew:GTS.ORG admin, '72 Q code 5 speed Restomod
Pondering: #99Problems |
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72GTS351CJ
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Sorry no video. I could take some pics if you wanted. 351 cleveland 4 speed with 391 gears. 70mph @ 2500 rpm. There is a speed control sensor that plugs in line with the speedometer cable. When you hit about 35 mph o.d. is available if you want. If running the 1/4 mile you would go first to second then push the button on the shifter handle for second o.d. without letting off the accelerator then to third. You won't need 4th gear. It does lower your e.t. You can split the gears however you want as long as your doing 35mph. It's a really cool system and good for serious h.p. A little pricy tho.
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72GTS Clint Eastwood Special
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Eliteman76
Admin Group Joined: 20-March-2006 Location: Nebraska, USA Status: Offline Points: 5044 |
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Sounds like I need a ride!!
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Andrew:GTS.ORG admin, '72 Q code 5 speed Restomod
Pondering: #99Problems |
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BackInBlack
Senior Member Joined: 11-January-2011 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 1013 |
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Has anyone investigated using the T56 in our torino?
I did notice that the cross member looks like it would shift to the rear about 3 inches and shorten the driveshaft. Would it fit in the tunnel without cutting or modifying the trans tunnel? I don't want to bother with it if it's to wide to fit without cutting the tunnel. Edited by BackInBlack - 17-March-2016 at 1:29PM |
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-John
1973 GTS |
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cggrob
Member Joined: 28-November-2011 Location: Atlanta, GA Status: Offline Points: 72 |
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I am reinstalling the BBF in my 1972 and replacing the T5 with the T56 magnum. Looks like it will fit without surgery. I will let you know. I have the trans but engine is out being rebuilt to a 604 ci and is 2 months away.
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BackInBlack
Senior Member Joined: 11-January-2011 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 1013 |
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Damn...604. What a beast! Can't wait to see/hear it!
To use the TKO600 it will take extra cash to fix it up to shift at higher RPMs Liberty sells it reworked for $3200 (faceplated) T56 wont need any rework so its a wash as far as tranny costs. Cross member doesn't look to bad to fix for the t56; maybe all it needs is relocating it rear ward. So that leaves replacing the driveshaft as the only extra cost over the TKO600; only if it fits in the trans tunnel without cutting. Looking forward to hear what you figure out on this... Edited by BackInBlack - 19-March-2016 at 8:29AM |
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-John
1973 GTS |
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Nuggets
Senior Member Joined: 07-November-2014 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 869 |
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I want a g force in mine!
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Barnaby
429 powered 73 Stripper.....no comfort, just noise! |
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BackInBlack
Senior Member Joined: 11-January-2011 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 1013 |
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Why Gforce? How does it compare with the TKO600?
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-John
1973 GTS |
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Nuggets
Senior Member Joined: 07-November-2014 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 869 |
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Because a TKO 600 would grenade itself behind a twin turbo big block
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Barnaby
429 powered 73 Stripper.....no comfort, just noise! |
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Billy C
Senior Member Joined: 10-February-2010 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Status: Offline Points: 948 |
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who says? 600ft/lbs is a lot
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-Billy Conturo
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Nuggets
Senior Member Joined: 07-November-2014 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 869 |
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Yeah but it's way below what the potential power output of a twin turbo big block is....if you're making around 500 in NA form then twins will push you up to around 700 with ease
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Barnaby
429 powered 73 Stripper.....no comfort, just noise! |
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