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antlerfiend View Drop Down
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    Posted: 12-April-2014 at 11:18PM
Yesterday I took my fastback Mustang to the dragstrip with the new ,valvebody that I installed. Last year my car started to shift on it's own at about 5800 rpm. My dad built another valve body with a full manual shift kit. Well I was able to hold first gear out to 7000 but when I shifted into second, it went straight to third. I am gonna pull the valve body again today, take the shift kit out it and install it in my old one. Has anyone had this problem? It was very frustrating to say the least.
Alex
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robbdtme Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-April-2014 at 5:19AM
Not a trans expert, But sounds like the modulator was getting enough vacuum to go directly to 3rd gear, Might have something to do with it?
Johnny cash Special 74-75-76 freak. 77 XR7. 78 LTD II sport looks pretty but poop 302 in it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote unlovedford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-April-2014 at 5:31AM
Valve bodies are fickle. Piece of dirt, misplaced ball, wrong torque sequence can effect it. I'd try the modulator valve as Robb suggested first.
Joe
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-April-2014 at 5:46AM
when the vacuum hose is off of the modulator a c-4 won't shift until the governor overrides it at high rpms, but a manual shift valve body should be eliminating those aspects of the shifting. i would guess that a gasket or hole drilled in the wrong spot or improper placement of a check ball or an incorrect spool valve placement? check your 2-3 fluid circuit, it sounds like it's somewhere along that, but i'm not really a tranny expert, just my 2 cents! hope this helps
JOHN
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote antlerfiend Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-April-2014 at 12:31PM
Thanks for the info. I am gonna tear into it next weekend. The valve body that my dad built was real dirty but he said that he had cleaned it. It was not anywhere near as clean as the one that I removed. Hopefully I can get this thing figured out for the hillbilly arm drop drags. I will keep you posted.
Alex
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robbdtme Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-April-2014 at 5:01PM
Were some modulators adjustable like dist vacuum advances? Using a hex tool in the vacuum port or something like that? Thought I read that somewhere but never looked or tried it.
Johnny cash Special 74-75-76 freak. 77 XR7. 78 LTD II sport looks pretty but poop 302 in it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-April-2014 at 6:07PM
i believe some aftermarket modulators were adjustable (with an allen wrench in the vacuum port) some but not all
JOHN
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dave302 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-April-2014 at 12:54AM
Originally posted by californiajohnny californiajohnny wrote:

I would guess that an incorrect spool valve placement? check your 2-3 fluid circuit, it sounds like it's somewhere along that, but i'm not really a tranny expert, just my 2 cents! hope this helps
 
Unfortunately, I am not really a transmission expert either and I agree with what everyone had said above.
 
Could it be possible that the shifter linkage that is connected to your manual shift lever on the transmission had came out of adjustment slightly?
 
I ask this question because as you know, when the manual shift valve inside of the valve body is selected into first gear the transmission should always hold in first gear. And when the manual valve inside the valve body is selected into second gear, the transmission should always hold in second gear.
 
As you know, the manual shift valve (inside of the valve body), is the "Brain" of the transmission. It controlls all of the shift points, even if the vacuum modulator and/or the governor tells it to shift, the manual valve should always over-ride them.
 
If your shifter linkage is slightly out of adjustment, it can cause the transmission fluid to escape into the 1 to 2 shift valve fluid circuit, and the transmission will shift into second gear, even when you are trying to hold the transmission if first gear. It can also cause the transmission fluid escape into the 2 to 3 shift valve fluid circuit, and the transmission will shift into third gear, even when you are trying to hold the transmission in second gear. 
 


Edited by dave302 - 14-April-2014 at 12:56AM
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antlerfiend View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote antlerfiend Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-April-2014 at 1:22PM
It never even tried to go into second. It was 7000 rpm shift then to 3000 rpm. It was very frustrating to say the least. The most frustrating thing about it all now is that my car is over 100 miles away from me and I won't be able to work on it til Saturday night. One big plus though. Sunday I looked at a 68 S code 4 speed fast back. If things work out right that wil inhabit my garage by summers end.
Alex
72 GTS (Morgan's Baby)
68 CJ Drag Car Clone
65 Mustang (first car)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dave302 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-April-2014 at 2:07PM
Originally posted by antlerfiend antlerfiend wrote:

Last year my car started to shift on it's own at about 5800 rpm.
 
Last year when the transmission started to shift on its own, did the transmission shift straight into second gear or straight into third gear?
 
I had asked someone who knows a little bit about transmissions and he asked me to ask you that question.
 
Another question that he asked me is: Are you sure that your second gear is working inside the transmission? He had asked me this question because: Since this is a track car that you are talking about, you are probably towing the car to and from the race track, and you might not have realized that there was no second gear until you were on the race track racing. 
 
These answers that you give to me will help him determine if there is something mechanically wrong inside or outside the transmission.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote antlerfiend Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-April-2014 at 3:59PM
I put the valve body in and drove it little on the street. I did not know there was no second gear til I did my first burnout. Last year the trans would shift on its own into second and when I shifted into second it would go into third.
Alex
72 GTS (Morgan's Baby)
68 CJ Drag Car Clone
65 Mustang (first car)
77 LTD II (Drag Car)
78 Mustang II V6 4 speed
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-April-2014 at 6:09PM
alex, so you're saying that you had it in 1st gear, then manually shifted to second and it went straight to 3rd gear?
JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE
74 VETTE CUSTOM
90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED
77 CELICA CUSTOM
75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED
79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED
75 VEGA V6 5 SPD
70 CHEV C10 P/U
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dave302 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-April-2014 at 7:11PM
Originally posted by antlerfiend antlerfiend wrote:

I was able to hold first gear out to 7000 but when I shifted into second, it went straight to third.
 
Yes, that is exactly what he had said.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote antlerfiend Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-April-2014 at 9:37PM
Yeah Johnny. It went straight to third. Last year it started to shift on it's own without me moving the shifter. It would shift into second before I moved the shifter. Then I would go ahead and move the shifter into second and try and hold second out and it would shift again at about 5800 rpm into third. If I did not move the shifter into third detent, it would shift back into second hen I let off of it at the finish line. My dad built a different valve body with a full manual kit, it will let me hold first now to 7000 but goes straight to third when I shift into second.
Alex
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dave302 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-April-2014 at 6:49PM
The problem with when your transmission upshifts by itself (on its own), would almost definetely be caused by a problem with the valve body, like the other members had suggested above.
 
The other problem that you have with no second gear, is most likely caused by the second gear band and/or second gear servo.
 
When you remove the valve body, you can apply compressed air into the second gear band/servo apply passage (which is located above where the valve body was installed). You will have to find out exactly which hole is for the second gear band/servo apply passage. Then when you apply compressed air into the second gear band/servo apply passage, you should see and hear the second gear band apply.
 
I had forgot to ask you more information about the history of this transmission, in order to find out more about the age of the internal parts inside of this transmission (like the second gear band and servo piston seal). Has it ever been rebuilt, or have you ever replaced those parts before? If so when, and/or how many miles ago? 
 
If  the second gear band does not apply when you apply air into the passage, it could be caused by the following four problems (and there could also possibly be other problems too, that i have not listed):
 
1.) It could be that the rubber seal that seals the second gear servo piston to the servo cylinder is not soft and pliable anymore, the seal could have become hard and heat/age rotted over the past few years, and if this has happened, the second gear band will probably not apply properly.
 
2.) Your second gear band might need to be adjusted. You can find the instructions for adjusting the second gear (band adjustment screw), in any good ford service manual.
 
3.)All of the friction material on the second gear band may have worn off over time. If this is the problem you will have to install a new second gear band.
 
4.) Did you check your second gear band when you installed the other valve body? Sometimes the bands develop cracks over time and they break. If this is the problem, you will have to install a new second gear band.
 
As you know, anytime that the second gear band does not apply, the transmission will upshift from first to third gear (when you shift it yourself or leave the selector lever in Drive), but it should still hold in first or second gear until you upshift it.
 
I might not be able to find out anymore information for you about this subject, so you should ask as many other people as possible.
 
I hope that this information helps you.


Edited by dave302 - 17-April-2014 at 10:08PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote unlovedford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-April-2014 at 1:52AM
Alex, a good rebuild kit from a reputable source would not be all that expensive. A fresh rebuild, good, clean valve body with proper mods, check your converter while it's out and you should be golden. An automatic transmission, more so than any other vehicle component, must be surgically clean inside to function properly. When opening it up, the surroundings, bench, everything, must be as spotless as well. One tiny piece of foreign matter can cause issues. Unlike a manual transmission, automatics have so many passages, valves, and work under pressure, so it must all be exactly right to work correctly. Add in the TV cables, solenoids, computers, sensors from later versions and it really gets complicated! At least a C4/C5/C6/FMX does not have that to contend with.
Joe
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote antlerfiend Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-April-2014 at 1:03PM
Thanks Dave and Joe. Gonna try and get to it this weekend. Only two weeks til armdrops and three til Nostalgia.
Alex
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65 Mustang (first car)
77 LTD II (Drag Car)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote antlerfiend Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-April-2014 at 1:06PM
Oh, the tranny was rebuilt three years ago. I will keep everyone up on the progress. Thanks again.
Alex
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dave302 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-April-2014 at 1:16PM
Your Welcome.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dave302 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-April-2014 at 11:50PM
I will give you the the instructions for adjusting your second gear band. First, you will need a new replacement (Lock nut with seal) for your second gear band adjustment screw. Since the seal on the locknut will probably become distorted, when you remove the locknut to adjust the second gear band adjustment screw.
 
Here is a tip: When you adjust your second gear band adjustment screw to specifications (which is 120 inch pounds/10 foot pounds), if it takes more than three full turns clockwise of the band adjustment screw to reach 120 inch pounds/10 foot pounds, your band will likely need to be replaced because all of the friction material has probably worn off already.
 
Here is the procedure for adjusting your second gear band: The second gear band adjusting screw is located on the front drivers side of the transmission. Loosen and remove the locknut while holding the band adjustment screw, then tighten the band adjustment screw to 120 inch pounds (which is 10 foot pounds). Then back off (loosen) the band adjustment screw counter-clockwise exactly 1-3/4 (one and three quarter) full turns. Then install a new locknut with seal and (while holding the band adjusting screw so it does not move) tighten the locknut with seal to 40 foot pounds. 


Edited by dave302 - 18-April-2014 at 11:54PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dave302 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-April-2014 at 12:21AM
Here is a good video that shows exactly how to perform an air check for the second gear band and servo on a C4, it also shows which air passage/hole that you have to apply air into to see and hear the second gear band and servo apply.
 
Towards the end of the video, it shows how to perform an air pressure check on the reverse gear band and servo also, and it also shows which air passage/hole to apply the compressed air into. You cannot hear any talking on this video for some reason, but it shows all of the procedures.
 


Edited by dave302 - 19-April-2014 at 12:36AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dave302 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-April-2014 at 12:33AM
Here is another video about how to do air checks on a C4. In this video he does air checks to both the front and rear bands and servos.
 


Edited by dave302 - 19-April-2014 at 12:35AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote antlerfiend Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-April-2014 at 6:06AM
I only had time to drop the Valve body and cover everything back up. Thanks for all of the help Dave. I am gonna have to do that next weekend. Being Easter and all we have things to do and people too see. Looks like I am not gonna have time to check it out before the armdrop Drags.
Alex
72 GTS (Morgan's Baby)
68 CJ Drag Car Clone
65 Mustang (first car)
77 LTD II (Drag Car)
78 Mustang II V6 4 speed
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote antlerfiend Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2014 at 3:01PM
Well I got the new valve body installed with a little help from my dad and it works great. The problem most likely was that I did not get the kickdown lever right. I have learned alot by this experience.
Alex
72 GTS (Morgan's Baby)
68 CJ Drag Car Clone
65 Mustang (first car)
77 LTD II (Drag Car)
78 Mustang II V6 4 speed
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