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Cooling Fan Parasitic Losses--Wow! |
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Don V. ![]() Member ![]() Joined: 07-July-2017 Location: Michigan Status: Offline Points: 174 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posted: 14-August-2017 at 11:18AM |
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I came across this while researching a new radiator for the truck. It's something everyone knows but I never would have guessed what a dyno shows.
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ilyes ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 09-January-2010 Location: Philadelphia PA Status: Offline Points: 3782 |
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Oh yeah, I put my fly swatter back until I get a new alternator and Mercedes fan. It cools great, all the time but past 4k, I can definitely feel it. Though if you don't need every horses, it is kind of a bullet proof design.
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fordpower ![]() Senior Member ![]() Joined: 02-September-2010 Location: willseyville,ny Status: Offline Points: 1713 |
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Very interesting watched one on exhaust and heads also
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72FordGTS ![]() Admin Group ![]() ![]() GTS.org Admin Joined: 06-September-2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Status: Offline Points: 5308 |
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I have seen that video before. The results are a little different than this old article below. In any case it can be summed up, direct drive fan = bad, flex fan = bad, mechanical clutch fan = better, thermal clutch = best mechanical fan, and of course electric is least power robbing overall.
What I like about the below article, it shows power loss at the lower and higher RPM's. It's not until the high RPM that you really see serious power loss. ![]() ![]() |
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Vince
1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car GTS.org Admin |
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MrSmog ![]() Senior Member ![]() Joined: 21-January-2016 Location: Ky Status: Offline Points: 1407 |
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I am curious if less blades rob less hp? I would think so but not sure.
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72FordGTS ![]() Admin Group ![]() ![]() GTS.org Admin Joined: 06-September-2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Status: Offline Points: 5308 |
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I would think blade pitch and surface area would be more critical than the actual number of blades. Check out my post above, they test a ton of different fans. It's a little more detail IMO than the Motor Trend TV video.
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Vince
1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car GTS.org Admin |
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MrSmog ![]() Senior Member ![]() Joined: 21-January-2016 Location: Ky Status: Offline Points: 1407 |
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I'm thinkin more along the lines of factory stock fans. I plan to put a thermal clutch fan on this little 302 in my torino now and probably use it on the 351cj when I swap that in for 99% of drivin, but at the pure stock drags I will have to run a factory fan. Just curious if there was any hp advantage of a 4 blade over a 5 blade. Looks like above in the print article it robbed 23hp vs 30 in the vid, but of course thats not really apples to oranges. Wonder if lower hp engines are labored more then a higher hp engine, or the hp loss is the same regardless? |
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Don V. ![]() Member ![]() Joined: 07-July-2017 Location: Michigan Status: Offline Points: 174 |
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"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss."
I'm still surprised by the amount of power loss. I've seen and read about research in to the effects of mass on power when using iron, aluminum and titanium in the engine and drivetrain. Typically the power loss to mass is somewhere around 5 to 8 hp for every 25 lbs. Considering the rules for the conservation of energy some of these fans with their static resistance are weighing 100+ lbs. Without regurgitating a lot of considerations I think this brings up the old debate about why the GT40 cooling system was so efficient. More surface area because of the orientation of the radiators or did the design allow for more efficient evacuation of the fan's static pressure? The thought in the design was surface area.
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Don V. ![]() Member ![]() Joined: 07-July-2017 Location: Michigan Status: Offline Points: 174 |
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What did you think of them? I saw an H pipe for a video and I've always wondered what their purpose was?
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Don V. ![]() Member ![]() Joined: 07-July-2017 Location: Michigan Status: Offline Points: 174 |
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After seeing this I think I'd risk the $15 on one of the ebay electrics from China just to see what happens. I also have a feeling this has nothing or little to do with the engine and it's about the fan and car. Might be worth trying the submarine route also? For "quiet" they went to an inefficient but quiet screw and spun the RPM way up. They stayed quiet and are faster then ever. Kind of like what F1 did with the "super under square" engine.
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MrSmog ![]() Senior Member ![]() Joined: 21-January-2016 Location: Ky Status: Offline Points: 1407 |
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yes a electric fan is of course the route to go for as little hp loss as possible if you don't care about stock looks but you misunderstand what I am interested in, heres a link to the rules for the pure stock drags class on coolin systems. http://www.psmcdr.com/11.html Edited by MrSmog - 15-August-2017 at 4:15AM |
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Don V. ![]() Member ![]() Joined: 07-July-2017 Location: Michigan Status: Offline Points: 174 |
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Mr. Smog,
Thanks for that link. I'm familiar with various classes of Rally, RallyCross and score along with some other odds and ends but I've never looked at any drag racing. I use to work with Jim Thorton too. I caught on to your concern with the rules but I got impression you were dealing with multiple cars and had plans for swapping some things around. Seemed to me a good time to see how some options might effect your car. My experience with racing is everyone is always looking for an advantage by pushing the rules. Have you ever seen fan blade angle or fan pulley size measured? Also, if I had considered the electric fan as something permanent I never would have never suggested a $15 fan from China.
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MrSmog ![]() Senior Member ![]() Joined: 21-January-2016 Location: Ky Status: Offline Points: 1407 |
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not sure where you are in Mich, but you should come check the pure stocks out if you want to kill some time. I'm gonna try like heck to get up there this year, even if I can't bring my father which was the intention due to his health problems recently. Hope to run my car there within a couple years. They do seem to keep an eye on things to keep the class fair and fun but I'm sure many use the gray area to run anything they can which might give them a little hp. Its not a heads up class so overall elapsed time doesn't matter but of course everyone wants to put the best time down they can. |
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Don V. ![]() Member ![]() Joined: 07-July-2017 Location: Michigan Status: Offline Points: 174 |
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Do you know where Milan Dragway is? I'm about a half hour to 40 minutes minutes away unless it's a busy season for the farmers. Then it could be as much as 2 hours away. When is the event? I'm usually gone for most of the fall but I could be up for it since you say it's for fun. No offense, but most drivers suck. If there is a god he invented professional, competitive drivers so the professional, competitive whiners could be herded to a common place. When you do get to participate, I'll be there.
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MrSmog ![]() Senior Member ![]() Joined: 21-January-2016 Location: Ky Status: Offline Points: 1407 |
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http://www.psmcdr.com/5.html
there's the event info. Its about 2 hrs north of you or so I think. I lived in N Mich many years ago as a teen, up around Tawas/oscoda area. If I do get to go this year I'll spend a couple days at the drags and then run up north to see some old friends. Milan is where they used to have the super chevy events wasn't it? |
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72FordGTS ![]() Admin Group ![]() ![]() GTS.org Admin Joined: 06-September-2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Status: Offline Points: 5308 |
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If you have to run a stock fan, then I am pretty certain the 4-blade fan would use the least power. It has the least cooling power, which means it moves the least air and would draw the least power. Even looking at the test above, it is 4-blade fan that uses the least power (of the direct drive). I would think that in terms of how much horsepower it would be the same regardless of what engine it is installed on. It would require the same amount of energy to turn the fan at the same RPM, it doesn't care what's spinning it. It does seem that the amount of power a fan consumes is proportional to the RPM it's spinning, at least that's how it looks from the magazine test.
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Vince
1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car GTS.org Admin |
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changinlatitudes ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 14-April-2013 Location: Union, MO Status: Offline Points: 554 |
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Guess I'll be tossing my plastic flex. Geez.
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Matt
1969 Mercury Marauder 390 1972 Montego MX 2003 Mercury Marauder 300A 1994 F-150 5.8 2016 Ford Fusion Titanium |
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aquartlow ![]() Senior Member ![]() Joined: 19-December-2011 Location: Summerfield, Fl Status: Offline Points: 2209 |
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I do not doubt the above findings about HP loses after switching from a mechanical 7 blade clutch fan assembly. I have been running a dual electric cooling fan assembly sourced from a '98 Ford Windstar for some time now, it cools my 472BBF very well even with running my A/C in traffic here in central Florida during summer temps. I see more stable cooling temps, better A/C performance, faster engine "spool-up"(biggest surprise), a slight increase in useable power as well as a bump in MPG's. I will never go back to a mechanical fan if there is an option for an electric cooling fan to do the job. The only drawbacks I have realized from my install was the initial costs for the parts and the wiring involved, but the advantages far outweigh these points.
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www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires. No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t. Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone. |
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Carl ![]() Member ![]() Joined: 21-March-2010 Location: Colorado Spring Status: Offline Points: 191 |
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Switch to an electric water pump, and save another 25HP!
I'm going to be switching from the factory fan and water pump to electric to run at the Colorado Mile in a couple of weeks. Using a Chevy HHR fan, and fitting it inside the factory shroud to retain some semblance of factory appearance, and I'm going to use a Mr. Gasket electric water pump conversion which drives the factory pump with an externally mounted electric motor and belt. The elec fan will be permanent (if it keeps it cool), and the elec water pump will be swapped in/out as needed for race or street use. .
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