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Could use some diagnostics help

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lynchster View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lynchster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Could use some diagnostics help
    Posted: 28-August-2022 at 7:43AM
Lots of specifics

I've finally gotten the car out for a few bug runs and out of the gate it ran really well. The first two were under 20 miles(flawless), a third about 40 miles (hard start when warmed up), a fourth maybe three miles (sputtering badly).

Up until the third run it had nothing but av gas from the local airport in it. I stopped at a local station and added half a tank of non-ethanol 90 to a quarter tank of av gas. So far so good other than a hard start.
The fourth time (I had burned off half a tank by then) it was sputtering so badly I turned around and parked it. I added a bottle of dry gas (water?) and 4 gal of av gas. Not driven since but no improvement.

Engine specifics (nothing radical)
Block: 72 351C, .030, decked, studded, balanced rotating assy
Heads: 70 351C, closed chamber, shaved, rocker studs, 10.3:1 compression 
Cam: Howards (roller) 233215-10 Lift .571/.577  Dur .269/.277 
         110 Lobe Center, 106 Intake Center
Intake: Edelbrock 351F (told by Edelbrock not worth replacing with latest 
            version). 
Carb: 750 Edelbrock vac secondaries
Ignition: Recurved Duraspark II dist., Factory Duraspark (blue), 8.5 wires,
              Stock Motorcraft plugs .44 gap 
              I did attach the 12V start bypass and ignition start retard to the 
              solenoid.
Exhaust: stock manifolds, Pipes cut off at mufflers (temporary)

Compression #'s 174, 177, 175, 175, 174, 174, 175, 179
Vacuum: 15 psi relatively steady it was before but I had to add 1/2 a turn to
              each side to get it there again
Plugs: Clean / reddish 
Oil and coolant are good 

Now that that's out of the way.

1. I'm thinking about disconnecting the spark retard wire from the solenoid. 
    I read it was for easier starting but I'm thinking it's making worse with the
    compression and the heat.
2. Is 15 psi vacuum a good number for this cam? I was thinking 16-17 and 
    that maybe there's a leak at the manifold?
3. The fuel pump is a mechanical replacement that has done more sitting 
    than running in the four years it's been built. Weak diaphragm?  
    I've been considering a regulator since these Edelbrock's are rather
    insistent on 5 1/2 psi. 

I'd appreciate any input. 
Thanks
   
 
Chuck
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-August-2022 at 7:49AM
back story, how long did it sit with what in the tank?

i like a see through filter between the metal fuel line off the frame and the fuel pump,

1 piece plastic not that 17 piece glass fire starter pos
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lynchster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-August-2022 at 8:25AM
Originally posted by Rockatansky Rockatansky wrote:

back story, how long did it sit with what in the tank?

i like a see through filter between the metal fuel line off the frame and the fuel pump,

1 piece plastic not that 17 piece glass fire starter pos

Everything is new including the fuel tank. Before installing the fuel tank I was using a 2 gal gas can in the trunk. LOL

It actually had one of those 17 piece glass fire starters on the front at the pump when I bought it. Shocked 
I'm not against another filter. It current has an inline at the front of the carb.


Edited by lynchster - 03-September-2022 at 8:04AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-August-2022 at 9:34AM
at this point i'd open the top of the carb and have a look in the bowl, see if it's collecting or growing anything.
some carbs take a dislike to whatever's in the fuel and the finish on the alloy gets funky.

take a peek
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72 RS 351 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-August-2022 at 9:48AM
I'd wonder about the condition of the plugs and plug wires, the actual fuel pressure, and the coil wiring plus ballast resistor. Hopefully it's not about old gas or the affects of it.


From curiosity, what duration is that cam also, the 0.050" specs? I like the smaller centerline figures, those sound good for a hot engine. Also what intake is on it exactly, what does 351F mean?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lynchster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-August-2022 at 11:17AM
Originally posted by 72 RS 351 72 RS 351 wrote:

I'd wonder about the condition of the plugs and plug wires, the actual fuel pressure, and the coil wiring plus ballast resistor. Hopefully it's not about old gas or the affects of it.

Plugs and wires are new. Plugs looked good and double checked the gaps while they were out.
Entire fuel system including the tank is new.
I didn't use a ballast resistor I went with the factory resistor wire in the harness.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote lynchster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-August-2022 at 11:26AM
Originally posted by 72 RS 351 72 RS 351 wrote:

From curiosity, what duration is that cam also, the 0.050" specs? I like the smaller centerline figures, those sound good for a hot engine. Also what intake is on it exactly, what does 351F mean?



I actually got to talk with one of the people from Edelbrock that was trying to promote in house production of 4V heads and intakes. The actual intake is an F351. He pulled up a promotional flyer from 1972. It's an old version of their current dual plane intake. He suggested keeping this one the new one wasn't going to deliver much improvement.
 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote handsofstone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-August-2022 at 12:25PM
On the hard starting when hot, be sure your starter cable from the solenoid is tucked alongside the oil pan rail and insulated. That was an issue I dealt with early on with mine.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 78FordLtd2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-August-2022 at 1:49PM
It's either fuel or spark that's caysung your proplem. Take the top off the carb and see what's inside. Check your fuel pressure too. Also look at the routing of your fuel lines too. Could be vapor lock or fuel boiling out of the carb or in the line itself. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hogfiddles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-August-2022 at 1:53PM
My ‘76 had a ‘difficult to start, when warmed up good’ condition... that manifested itself as if the batter were almost dead— would barely turn over, and sometimes I’d have to wait an hour.

Turned out to be a starter issue.... got a new low profile starter and never had another issue
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyntre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-August-2022 at 2:14PM
I can’t offer you any more advice than has already been given but I would really love a video of the engine running when you get the problems ironed out !
I have that same roller cam picked out for our 400 build and would sure like to hear the idle sound on that !!!!!!! 
Does it move the car pretty well out of the gate ?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-August-2022 at 2:16PM
this hard to start hot issue reminds of an Old Mechanic, he said "change the neg battery cable"

he was right
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lynchster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-August-2022 at 2:37PM
I have new ground cables with three ground points. 
One starts at the clutch shield to the point in the frame where the battery ground cable attaches. I just ran another 4 guage wire from the front of the block to the terminal. Itvmaybe over kill but an electrician buddy of mine says you can never have too many.
I did disconnect the white start timing retard wire from the solenoid. If it does the trick I may swap to a newer PGMR starter.

I have to get this sputtering under control. It was after I put the gas in it from the station but I had 40 miles on it before it acted up the next day. I thought the dry gas and other gas might cure it.

The 15 psi of vacuum is concerning but it did run well. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72 RS 351 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-August-2022 at 2:51PM
The 15 inches of vacuum isn't a big concern, the camshaft at 217/225 degrees isn't really that big at all. It sounds like the basic wiring is very good, and I'd concentrate on the fuel to and from the carburetor. Night,
Don
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lynchster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-August-2022 at 3:01PM
Originally posted by 72 RS 351 72 RS 351 wrote:

The 15 inches of vacuum isn't a big concern, the camshaft at 217/225 degrees isn't really that big at all. It sounds like the basic wiring is very good, and I'd concentrate on the fuel to and from the carburetor. Night,
I know right? I was thinking it should be good for 16 - 17 psi but it's not my area of expertise. The overall results are about what I expected compared to the factory CJ cam. 👍
The issue is rather sudden. Maybe I need more than 4 gallons of new fuel and dry gas. Maybe there's an intake leak?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mkshelton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-August-2022 at 4:20PM
Was the rough running at idle or driving? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lynchster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-August-2022 at 9:59AM
I might have the hard start when warm fixed. Either the extra 4 guage ground wire or disconnecting the start retard feature seems to have done the trick.

The sputtering remains. Noticed it's mild when not fully warmed up but horrible fully warm. Could be bad gas? I do have a 1 inch spacer under the carb and those first runs were damn near flawless. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-August-2022 at 1:55PM
neg bat cable should go directly to the block, not any brackets or accessory mounts,
OEM it went to the nearest motor mount bolt IIRC?

then if you need to ground the body, back of the head to the firewall

the frame is a poor ground base with all the body mounts, they're actually called isolators!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote handsofstone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-August-2022 at 2:43PM
Negative cable on both my cars went to the block near the alternator then to the frame with the braided strap. Body from rear of right head. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote qcode72 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-August-2022 at 1:40PM
My carter afb 750 cmf,would stutter when cruising.Ifound the metering rods  bent.I replaced with new Holley 1850. solved the problem. Car needed more than 5 gallon in tank. AV gas does not have same additives as non-ethanol pump gas.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lynchster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-September-2022 at 8:34AM
I think removing the white wire from the solenoid corrected the hard start when warm.

I've added a second bottle of dry gas (heet) to 8 gallons of gas (4 new). If the gas were any dryer the Torino would be requesting an olive. Still misfires bad at 3500 ish cold, 2500 warm but I do notice it at 1500.

Tested the coil cold, hot, and against the coil I had in it before cold 

Original
Primary. 1.8 ohms
Secondary.  8.69 ohms 

Vertex
Primary cold 1.0 ohms / hot  1.4 ohms
Secondary  cold  6.8 ohms / hot 7.16 ohms

To me that seems to check out ok but I'm more of a mechanically inclined bodyman. 
I also put a vacuum gauge on it and it is steady over 20 hg over idle.
Learning but I wish I were a better diagnostisian. 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lynchster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-September-2022 at 8:36AM
Originally posted by qcode72 qcode72 wrote:

My carter afb 750 cmf,would stutter when cruising.Ifound the metering rods  bent.I replaced with new Holley 1850. solved the problem. Car needed more than 5 gallon in tank. AV gas does not have same additives as non-ethanol pump gas.


Not out of the question but I hope I didn't manage to bend mine after 80 miles.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-September-2022 at 10:09AM
the white wire ... i thought the red and white wire were for ignition power during crank and run?

disconnecting either would cause hard starting or fail to run?

is it possible you're running off the crank wire overheating the coil?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lynchster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-September-2022 at 10:52AM
I'm using the factory pink resistor wire for the coil (no ballast).
The brown wire to the solenoid is to provide 12V to the start circuit. Operates at 8V?
The white wire to the solenoid was to retard the timing at start to make it easier on the starter. Seem to make it too hard to turn over my engine when warm.
I also read most people go with the red wire 12V and a ballast and don't bother with the white or brown wires at all.
That's as best I recollect from researching before the conversion.

After moving on from the coil I tested the vacuum advance canister to find it won't hold a vacuum. There's a vacuum leak!  It's connected to the timed port. I disconnected it and blocked it with a vacuum gauge. The port works as it's designed but it didn't cure the misfire.
A buddy offered up a distributor from a 460 to test with but I'm into learning diagnostics now 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote californiajohnny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-September-2022 at 10:53AM
 white w/red stripe is 12v cranking iirc and red is keyed power... maybe the control module is failing???
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lynchster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-September-2022 at 10:56AM
Originally posted by californiajohnny californiajohnny wrote:

 white w/red stripe is 12v cranking iirc and red is keyed power... maybe the control module is failing???

Possible too? I always thought the modules worked or didn't with no in between. 
Everything is new but I apparently have a bad cannister on the distributor regardless.
Wire colors for the Duraspark might be subjective since I went with a Painless harness?


Edited by lynchster - 03-September-2022 at 11:01AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote handsofstone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-September-2022 at 2:24PM
Nice picture.  LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lynchster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-September-2022 at 5:36PM
To simply things a bit because I'm simple here is the wiring diagram I used for reference. 

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