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Epoxy and por-15 questions

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Grantorinosport351 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 07-October-2013 at 5:27PM
Hi all, I have never dealt with paints too seriously and had some questions.
Epoxy primer, what is it? And what's it used for and applied to? From my understanding it's a primer sealer? And what's that mean? Water and or rust resistant?
And por-15 I know what it is and what it's used for I was just wondering if I was right about epoxy if it would be even more protectant applied onto epoxy on say a frame, or would it be better to just apply por-15 to bare metal?
Thanks for any input
~Bryan
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GranTorinoSport Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-October-2013 at 5:42PM
Don't know anything about epoxy primer, but I love POR-15. Just got done using a quart of the stuff to coat all sorts of parts like my inner fenders, radiator support and other attaching inner body pieces.

Can't say enough good things about it, but proper surface prep is critical. At least the degreasing part and zinc on bare metal. Doesn't have to be bare metal to get a good seal. The inner fenders I did were not sandblasted, just wire brushed (still took a while to do), and heavily and repeatedly degreased. But it seems to have turned out well.

My F-250 had some rust out under the battery. I cleaned it all up (still mounted in truck) and put some POR-15 over it on both sides. It really wasn't even perfectly clean - and a couple years later still doing pretty well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grantorinosport351 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-October-2013 at 5:46PM
What do you mean by degreased? Doesn't por-15 have a prep before application or is that bare metal only?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GranTorinoSport Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-October-2013 at 5:55PM
POR-15 makes some prep products - one is a heavy and nasty degreaser spray. This is for all things you want to paint POR-15 onto (also works as a great multi-use degreaser).

They also make a blue zinc spray that you spray and and wash off. This is for bare metal only and just sort of gives the POR-15 something more to adhere to. 

These are the two basic prep products for POR-15 application. As I have found with their other products, it is good stuff but prep before application is key. I did a really good job with their exhaust paint twice on manifolds. On the third time I skimped (in a hurry), and it failed. The others are actually doing well considering they are exhaust paint.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grantorinosport351 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-October-2013 at 5:58PM
Thanks, anybody else know anything about epoxy, or want to say anything else?
~Bryan
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote robot9000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-October-2013 at 1:52AM
Well, epoxy is a synthetic plastic polymer.  When used as a primer, it provides a good base coat.  I'm no expert, but I believe it is a great base coat over metal or properly prepped surface.  Anything that has 2k in the name means it uses 2 products (coating + catalyst) and cures  to a finish, as opposed to drying.  I believe a lot of people use the paint steps -> Epoxy 2K primer -> Urethane high build primer -> Paint (Base coat/ Clear coat or single stage). 

I would do some googleing to really understand how they work.  It can get confusing and what to use really depends on what you are trying to achieve.  

About POR-15.  I have to say I absolutely hate the stuff.  I would rather have my eyes poked out with salty pencils than deal with POR 15. Here's why:

!!!!  IT FREAKIN STICKS TO EVERYTHING AND IS LIKE FREAKING GLUE YOU CAN'T REMOVE !!!!!

I am pulling the front suspension off my 73 GTS and everywhere the prev owner hit with POR-15 is like a bad dream.  POR-15 has this epoxy like base that cures hard.  Get it on any threads or bolt heads or such and you need to wire brush it off to get them apart.  It is also near impossible to get off your skin and IS impossible to get off clothes.   I don't think it looks all that great, doesn't like bare metal, is expensive, will cure in the can, will seal the can top in place, will cure the WHOLE CAN OVERNIGHT if you double dip your brush in or get any moisture in it.  

Too much trouble.   Did I mention its also priced the same as a 2012 Lamborghini Gallardo front fender?

So, um, yeah. Not a fan. Oh, almost forgot!!  It breaks down under UV, so don't use it on anything on your car that is outside unless you top coat it.  

But there is GOOD NEWS!! A product that can be used outdoors on Earth, won't weld itself into its container, goes on bare metal just fine, will actually come off human skin, and doesn't cost $14 more than a used 1999 Lotus Turbo Exprit V8 - 

Eastwood Rust Encapsulator !!  (Yeah, sounds like an invention from Dr. Doofensmirtz)

I LOVE THE STUFF !! Goes on waaaay easier, is UV resistant, looks nicer finished (YMMV).  For $20 less per quart, I think its a MUCH better product both in long term durability and rust protection and is galacticlly better in Ease of Use.  Bare metal, light rust, it smooths out and looks great.  Yeah, only available via Eastwood, but...:shrug:  Good Stuff.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grantorinosport351 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-October-2013 at 2:03AM
Hah, Dr. Doofensmirtz, how old are you again? Lol, can't believe anybody knows who he is, I could imagine him saying that, ah that made me laugh. So does this Eastwood stuff give the same amount of protectant, and does it last as long? More prep? Less prep? It sounds pretty good, so why doesn't everybody use it over por?
~Bryan
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grantorinosport351 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-October-2013 at 2:21AM
I checked it out, and I believe I'll be using the frame and suspension kit, and the price is pretty good, but if I got the frame blasted would I have to use the rust converter?
~Bryan
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote robot9000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-October-2013 at 2:27AM
Lol, too old.  And It should probably be called the Rust Encapsulatorlator ;-)

I bought a can of POR 15 and used it to coat the inside of my fenders and started doing some frame sections.  After the can top sealed so tight I had to use an old fashioned triangle can opener to pour out the contents, I was aggravated.  I sealed the can in a zip lock bag (squeezing as much air out as possible) and the next day it formed a hard brittle skin inside the can.  I poked through it with a screw driver and used more. 

Por and Eastwood both seem to go on fine if its rusted metal that is wire brushed pretty clean.  Where I think EW is better is POR doesn't seem to like bare metal too much.  It seems to not want to stick to that.  Its like it needs some rust or dirt to stick to.  EW didn't have a problem with wire brushing to shiny metal.  I also didn't like that it will glop bolt heads and make it difficult to get a wrench or socket on.  No biggie for bigger stuff, but not fun on smaller bolts and nuts.

I think the durability is comparable for rust prevention.  There is a guy that did a long term test with POR and Eastwood and over all they both did okay, with EW showing better protection at the edge were non-painted meets the POR/EW products (resists rust from creeping under the coating I guess).

POR you can get a lot of places for $45- $55 a qt.  Eastwood is only from Eastwood.  I like Eastwood stuff - I use their rust stuff and their welder.  No, I'm not a paid spokes person, but for $5-10 bucks less (and I can use the whole can) I'm a convert.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote robot9000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-October-2013 at 2:28AM
No, if you have your frame blasted, just use a 2k (If possible) epoxy sealer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grantorinosport351 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-October-2013 at 2:36AM
Check out the frame and suspension kit though, it comes with

Rust Converter primes the surface by turning rust into an inert iron oxide
Rust Encapsulator protects against further rusting
Topcoat with Original Chassis Black Satin to seal the metal against the elements
(Copied that)
So with that kit and blasting, use rust converter?

Edited by Grantorinosport351 - 08-October-2013 at 2:55AM
~Bryan
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grantorinosport351 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-October-2013 at 2:51AM
Oh ok, epoxy. Thanks a lot robot I think you have made me an Eastwood fan!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote unlovedford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-October-2013 at 2:56AM
You guys are going to hate me on this, but I use Rustoleum Industrial Gloss and Semi-Gloss in the gallon cans. I prep it thoroughly, prime the bad areas and spray/roll it on.

Reasons?

It is UV resistant - rolled/brushed a Bronco II with it 4 years ago and it still looks good. Have painted metal cabinets that are still outside with it - still look good.

It is cheap and easily obtainable.

It is easy to clean up.

It does not have a ceramic/epoxy base, so removal of parts after painting is easy.

It has a superb shelf life.

It is plenty durable to withstand undercarriage abuse when properly applied.

Superb finish.

It is cheap (again).

You nust get the Industrial version (not the Home Depot regular version) for these better results.


I have used POR-15 and had decent results, but used it all at once and didn't keep the vehicle (thus avoiding the shelf life issue and future parts removal). I threw away my clothes after using.

Eastwood products are really hard to beat for the price and quality.

In a nutshell, if you have limited funds and want a daily driver, go with the rustoleum. If you do it all at once, are not planning on working on it and are thinking of resale, then POR-15 is a choice for a "show" car. Eastwood is great for that situation as well.

Edited by unlovedford - 08-October-2013 at 2:56AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grantorinosport351 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-October-2013 at 3:02AM
Rustoleum isn't that bad, we painted an entire huge stock trailer with it, and it came out great, saw it a few years later after selling it and it still looked good, but I think I'm goin' with Eastwood.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GranTorinoSport Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-October-2013 at 4:46AM
Another one to consider is Rust Bullet. Regul8r had talked with them at one time and seemed to like the product. I believe he had obtained some and was going to use it on Ol Brown or something, but don't remember what his impressions were of it.

Rust Bullet was another product that was less temperamental than POR15 and claimed to have some advantages.

Again, worth serious consideration but I don't have a ton of information on it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote robot9000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-October-2013 at 5:07AM
Originally posted by Grantorinosport351 Grantorinosport351 wrote:

Check out the frame and suspension kit though, it comes with

Rust Converter primes the surface by turning rust into an inert iron oxide
Rust Encapsulator protects against further rusting
Topcoat with Original Chassis Black Satin to seal the metal against the elements
(Copied that)
So with that kit and blasting, use rust converter?

So, are you having the whole frame blasted or just parts or maybe none?  If you are having the frame blasted, just shoot it with some epoxy primer. You don't need the Eastwood kit.   If you have a compressor, a gal of Summit 2K epoxy is pretty cheap. Match it to a Harbor Freight fun and you will have a spiffy frame in no time.  If you want to top coat it with chassis black, all the better, but epoxy will do fine.

If you are NOT having your frame blasted, or not all of it, then you would use the Eastwood kit.  The Eastwood kit assumes you are not media blasting the metal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mcford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-October-2013 at 1:31PM
Rust encapsulator is "da bomb".  And rustoleum 7777

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SininenIII Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-October-2013 at 3:47PM
POR15 does not stick well on epoxy primer.
When I had my frame blasted, the guy who blasted the frame shot epoxy primer on it. Back at the garage I added a layer of POR-15 over epoxy thinking it would be the best protection for the frame. Later when moving the frame I accidentally hit it with something, I discovered the POR15 was coming off quite easily. I carefully ground off the POR-15 leaving most of the epoxy on, and added 2 new coats of 2K epoxy primer, and 2 coats of heavy industry semi-gloss black 2K urethane paint.
The 2K urethane seems to stick great, cleans very easily and takes even hard hits.
I used it on frame, firewall, suspension parts and bottom of the car.

To anyone interested hereĀ“s the description of the paint:
DESCRIPTION A two component, semigloss polyurethane paint, hardener aliphatic isocyanate.
PRODUCT FEATURES Recommended as a semigloss topcoat for epoxy and polyurethane systems exposed to weathering and/or chemical stress.
RECOMMENDED USES Recommended for painting of transport and haulage equipment, storage tank exteriors, steel framework and other steel structures, machinery and equipment.

TECHNICAL DATA
Features Excellent weathering and abrasion resistance. A durable, easy to clean and non-chalking topcoat with good gloss and colour retention. The product has MED (Marine Equipment Directive) certificate no VTT-C-4033-15-09 and is thus accepted for painting surfaces inside the ships.


Before that I used POR15 on many things, it stays great on clean, prepared metal. 


Edited by SininenIII - 08-October-2013 at 3:49PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psquare75 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-October-2013 at 2:40AM
I know I was a big proponent of POR15 and later Zero Rust, but I'm switching to epoxy primer + topcoat of some sort.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Bird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-October-2013 at 10:06AM
Epoxy primer followed by sandable primer if you are using automotive paint over it and want a good finish (DP-90 or similar) try to spray it as smooth as possible because epoxy primer can be a bear to sand.
On frames, floorpans and other unseen areas, rustoleum rusty metal primer and satin black paint.
POR-15 is good but it's expensive, needs to be topcoated, doesn't play well with some topcoats, and is a PITA to get out of your hair, off your skin, etc.
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