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72FordGTS
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Topic: Holley TuningPosted: 10-August-2024 at 3:30AM |
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I am working on setting up my new QFT HR-680-VS carb. I have noticed if I set the idle for highest vacuum, and smooth idle, I am getting rich on the AFR, around high 12's. However, my transition circuit seems to be a little lean once I get rolling. My main jets seem ok. My idle screws are less than 1 turn out from seated. So I am thinking that I needs to decrease the idle air bleed size a bit to be able to lean the idle a bit and richen the transition circuit. My carb has 70 air bleeds. I am on the right track? Any suggestions on what size air bleeds I should order? I figure I will order a couple of sizes to try out.
Edited by 72FordGTS - 10-August-2024 at 11:59AM |
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Vince
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aquartlow
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Posted: 10-August-2024 at 5:54AM |
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If you are running an aftermarket cam, high 12's isn't too far off to get highest vacuum/smoothest idle setting. If transition is or seems a little lean(not a really bad thing unless it stumbles or bucks), that would tend to point to needing/wanting a little larger idle feed restrictor(IFR) in the primary metering block but doing so would reduce idle mixture screw turns out, same as reducing the orifice size of the idle air bleed(IAB). Check the primary side transfer slot widths and lengths, .023" is a good width and .200" is a good length for a 680 cfm carb. Try this simple test to check IFR size. Start engine and allow it to come up to temp, while in Park note the engine's AFR number, now slowly bring the RPM's up to 2000-2200 (about where main system start up occurs) and note AFR numbers at each 100 RPM increase(also note vacuum readings at each RPM change). Idle AFR should be richer than AFR number at say 1300 RPM, 13.5-14 are good target numbers to see since there is no load placed on engine. Once in gear, you should see a 1-1.5 AFR number increase. If AFR numbers stay at or decrease below idle AFR, then an increase in IAB or a decrease in IFR orifice size or a combination of both are in order. Try here for a wealth of Holley tuning tips and experience. Hope this helps
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72FordGTS
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Posted: 10-August-2024 at 6:52AM |
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So it does get into the 16s sometimes higher when doing a light cruise on the transition circuit. It seems to surge a bit when this happens. I do have an aftermarket cam, with some overlap, but it's pretty mild (it still has 16" of vacuum at idle). I played around with it a bit more and highest vacuum is closer to low 12s, maybe around 12. It is still a touch lean at cruise at times when I am very light on the throttle at low speeds and I seem to get a bit of surge. It's not as crisp as it was when I first installed the carb, but it was also way rich then overall. I did that test you mentioned Todd, and this is what I got (AFRs move around a bit, but that was roughly average for each RPM) RPM AFR 800 12.2 900 12.7 1000 13.1 1100 13.4 1200 13.6 1300 13.8 1400 13.9 1500 14.2 1600 14.7 1700 15.0 1800 15.3 1900 15.5 2000 15.7 It just seems to me like the curve needs to be adjusted a bit? I thought I could tweak it with the IABs because they are replaceable in this carb, but if IFR is the better route I can look at that too.
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Vince
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aquartlow
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Posted: 10-August-2024 at 7:26AM |
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Check and see where in the primary metering block the IFR resides, they behave much better in the lower position(like in the older Holley metering blocks-with only 2 emulsion bleeds). When they are positioned up high, they have been said not to perform as well or as consistent since they aren't totally submerged in fuel. I'd say .001-.0015" increase in IFR orifice size should help . When I first started tuning my Holley's, I had a 770 street avenger and was lean on transition, I found going from .032" to .034" IFR did the trick, just that change in orifice size was an air/fuel mixture increase of 11.5%. Looking at your notes, the AFR numbers steadily go leaner, so there may be a mixture of IFR change as well as a reduction in IAB size. Really whichever is easier to do would be my first step(probably IAB, drop .002-.004" in size) then adjust idle fuel mixture then see where numbers end up. Really it is best to give the engine what it wants and not try to hang onto a specific number-I was guilty of this during my initial tuning.
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72FordGTS
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Posted: 10-August-2024 at 8:22AM |
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Thanks Todd, great info. IABs are easier to do on this carb because they are screw in at the top of the carb, but it's not much more work to the the IFRs, if that is the better way to tune this idle/transition circuit. I just pulled the carb off the car and took off the metering blocks. It looks like it has replaceable IFRs on the top of the metering blocks. They are 32 in there now (I had to get my daughter to read the tiny number!) If I do replace the IFRs, I would do front and rear metering blocks since it has 4 corner idle, right? Are these the correct IFR jets, Holley Emulsion jets: It seems summit goes from .32 to .36 in size. I have 70s in my IABs. So what would you recommend I order? I am okay getting a few sizes of both IFRs and IABs. ![]() You will also note the 6.5 power valve in there. I am probably going to change that at some point too. From driving with the vacuum gauge I think somewhere around an 8.5 or so might be better for enrichment when I start to get on the gas a bit.
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Vince
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aquartlow
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Posted: 10-August-2024 at 11:45PM |
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On my metering blocks I drilled the lower IFR feed and tapped for 6-32x3/16 brass set screws, I used pin drills to make my own custom sized IFR's, I actually did the same with air bleeds-(used 8-32x 3/16" brass set screws), emulsion bleeds, power valve channel restrictors, transfer slot restrictors in main body. That said, you could take a piece of lead-like a piece of fishing weight and swedge it into the IFR you currently have with light taps of a hammer and a nail set, then drill it out with a pin drill to .033-.034"(I believe .036" would be too large) or use two-part epoxy to fill the IFR bleed's orifice and drill to size once hardened, but this usually takes 24 hours to occur. You could also purchase the larger .036" IFR and place a small piece of wire to reduce the overall orifice size for initial tuning reasons but not a good idea for long term use, I have seen and/or heard where a typical copper wire starts to deteriorate and could cause other issues if left in place. I would probably reduce the idle air bleed size to .065-.066", this should allow progressive richness as rpm's rise. You could try to place a .023-.024" piece of wire into the idle air bleed and long enough to bend over the choke's air horn with apiece of electrical tape to hold into place while checking AFR numbers-yes you can drive it this way for a short period of time. This should reduce the IAB orifice are size to around .065-.066" and verify if the AFR #'s are heading in the right direction for your needs. Do only one mod at a time of course, just to see how engine responds. Many magazine Holley tuning tips are incorrect about power valves, with a good power valve diaphragm and gasket installed, they will not supply fuel at idle even if your engine only produces 4" hg at idle with a 6.5"hg PV installed. The power valve enrichment system will only supply fuel enrichment after the main system's startup. That said, an earlier opening PV(8.5" hg.) will provide fuel enrichment sooner, if you feel you need additional enrichment you can enlarge the power valve restrictors located under the power valve. When tuning my Holley's, I try to get cruise AFR #'s as lean as possible without a surging issue(tuning combination of air bleeds, IFR's and main jets), then choose an earlier opening PV (like a 10.5") and tune my WOT #'s with the power valve channel restrictors, to keep WOT #'s around 12.5-12.8 AFR. As far as tuning the secondary side, I would wire the secondary throttle blades closed or rather to secondary throttle blade screw stop, so they will not interfere with primary side tuning. Once you get primary side "right", then secondary tuning usually becomes much easier. Hope this helps.
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Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires. No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t. Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone. |
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72FordGTS
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Posted: 11-August-2024 at 2:29AM |
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Thanks again Todd. Lots to consider here. I will do a parts order with a bunch of airbleeds and emulsion jets to see if I can get this thing dialed in. I might start with trying some IABs first before I get to drilling and modding the metering blocks. If I can get it with just the IABs, then that will save a lot of work. I think I need to alter the curve more than change the quantity of fuel. Speaking of drilling, do you have a recommendation for some precision drill bits? If I did want to drill out the ICR to .034" I don't have any bits that size. I just have standard size bits, in that go in 64ths of an inch. On the Powervalve, I do have a 10.5 on the shelf. When I was driving around with the vacuum gauge the vacuum seemed to drop to about 9 or so when I gave the gas a bit of a stab. The AFR was a around 15, so I figure I could use some enrichment a little earlier to make the response more crisp. I might order a couple, say an 8.5 and 9.5. So I'd have three to choose from as I tune it. On the PVCR, my carb appears to have 43s in there now. I agree with you theory Tod of trying to go lean on the mains and controlling the enrichment with the PCVRs. This engine seems to run well with a fairly lean cruise. So once I get this idle/transition circuit dialed in I'd like to work on the PVCRs.
Edited by 72FordGTS - 11-August-2024 at 2:36AM |
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Vince
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aquartlow
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Posted: 11-August-2024 at 4:44AM |
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I purchased my pin drill bits off of Amazon and/or Ebay, get a couple of sets at least since they will not exactly match O.D. they tell you they are. I have purchased around 10 sets of them due to minute variances in O.D. size. Here's an example: Mini Drill Bit Set Index 61-80 Set of 20pc | eBay
Make sure you have a digital micrometer to verify size of pin drill and choose a pin drill .0005" undersize of what you want actual orifice size to be, then use the actual needed sized pin drill's round shank to verify orifice hole-make sure to remove any tiny bits of material prior to installation. I used a 3/8" Makita drill size the chuck would hold even a .0015" drill bit, drill with a hand pin vise is extremely time consuming, just have some 3-in-1 oil handy or similar for lubrication which eases the drilling process and go slowly. The 10.5" hg will give sooner enrichment of course, you can custom tune the power valve opening point a bit by exchanging springs from one PV to another or slightly stretching the spring to delay the opening point a little. If you got to McMaster-Carr, you can purchase 6-32 x 3/16" and 8-32 x 3/16" brass set screws to use as all your Holley bleeds, just have to drill the set screws to your custom needed sizes. I have used 6-32 for IFRs and MAB's, 8-32's for PVCR's, IAB's and transfers slot restrictors(TSR's) in the main body. 4-40 x 1/8" are good for emulsion bleeds. Another thing to look at on your VS carb, is the signal tube for secondary diaphragm, many later model Holley's and their clones have omitted this tube and only have a flush port to secondary vacuum pod and have caused a non-opening or not fully opening vacuum secondary throttle blade condition. The tube should protrude about 1/8" into the primary venturi and have a 45 degree cut, with long point at the top and short point at the bottom of tube-horizontally speaking. Makes a world of difference in performance once this has been corrected if not installed. BTW, do not buy these kind/style of micro drill bits, they tend to break rather easily, hope this helps.
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Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires. No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t. Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone. |
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72FordGTS
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Posted: 11-August-2024 at 8:44AM |
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Thanks a million Todd! I will see what I can find for a mini drill set. It would be a lot easier if the IABs work, but I am okay if I have to make some custom bleeds. I checked my carb and I do have the tube exactly as your describe for the vacuum secondaries. Also, I found this formula for calculating PVCR and jet flow. It looks like out of the box this carb was pretty even front and rear (70/74 jets). 70 jet = .073" ^ 2.2x142200 + 43 PCVR =.043" ^2.2 x 142200 = 589 [primary main jet flow] 74 jet = .081" ^2.2=.006309573x142200=564 [secondary main jet flow] Now that I have dropped to 66 jets, I need to significantly up size my PCVR jets: 66 jet = .066" ^ 2.2x142200 + 52 PCVR =.052" ^2.2 x 142200 = 572 [primary main jet flow] Note I used this chart for the diameters of the jets: ![]() Edited by 72FordGTS - 11-August-2024 at 10:28AM |
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Vince
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72FordGTS
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Posted: 15-September-2024 at 8:38PM |
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So I have been playing around with the carb and got it pretty decent, but I am still not happy with the response at low RPM. I ended up increasing the IFR to .0336 (that was the closest I had in the pin drill set), I also decreased the IABs from 70 to 67. I increased the PCVRs to .052s. It runs awesome on the highway and at cruise. The low RPM was kind of lean (under 2000 rpm) but the increased IFRs helped a lot with that (the IABs didn't really have much impact). The issue is it still really soft at low RPM, it feels almost weaker than my old carb when I punch it off the line. It doesn't have the snappy throttle response it did when it was running out of the box settings, but it was rich overall. At higher RPM, it's fantastic. Go to pass someone, it takes off like a rocket with very little throttle input. Any thoughts on where to go? I was thinking of maybe going the next size up for IFR?
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Vince
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72 RS 351
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Posted: 16-September-2024 at 5:31AM |
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How far open are the idle screws? Those affect low rpm only and not upper rpm fuel at all. I'd richen those if they have adjustment left, and see how that does. Also what size squirters does it have, and is the soft low end right off idle? The squirters help the initial hit, and note too that the extended tips add fuel to higher rpm airflow. So those optional tips can be used to very slightly richen high rpm.
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Don
73 Ranchero "Sport 72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000 rpm 351 stroker 73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V &4R70W for sale later. 92 Lincoln Mark VII SE GTC, OBDII 347/4R70W |
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aquartlow
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Posted: 16-September-2024 at 6:31AM |
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Vince, unless I missed it, have you posted initial and total mechanical timing numbers? I realize you have probably already ironed this out but I'd make sure the ignition timing is all figured out, both initial, WOT and the progression in between the two before any more carb tuning-I should have stated that prior to a screwdriver or drill bit was used. That said, .0336" IFR is getting close to a stock 3310-1's .034-.035" IFR size, that with a reduction in size IAB's you "should" be getting sufficient fueling at idle and just off idle. Reducing IAB's from 70 to 67, you should have seen a .5 or so "richer" AFR change. Are you running a carb spacer? I found on my 472, that using a 4 hole spacer gives the venturi's a bit stronger signal as compared to an open spacer-I found almost a 3/4 point of vacuum change just by exchanging the open spacer for the 4 hole spacer. Do you use squirters with tubes or the standard shooter design, the tubes seem to help atomization due to the accelerator pump shot hitting the booster and/or allowing a more centralized fuel shot into the venturi. SMall changes can be made without using a drill bit, just raising the primary float a flat to a half turn will richen the carb at idle, transition and allow a sooner main system start-up. Have you double checked the transition slot lengths as compared to throttle blades and/or how much of the transfer slot is exposed at idle, sometimes one is higher than the other, requiring a little tweak with a file or a throttle blade adjustment(way more involved).
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www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires. No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t. Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone. |
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72FordGTS
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Posted: 17-September-2024 at 1:30PM |
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The idle screws are roughly 1 turn out. It is pretty rich at idle, about 12:1 but as soon as I get off idle it was leaning out. The bigger IFR helped this.
I think I have 28 squirters, just the standard (non-nozzle type) and I am using the orange cam. I like the idea of 4 hole spacer. I have a divide spacer on their now, but that is an easy swap. I will double check the transition slots, but last time I did they seemed pretty even and square on both sides. I doesn't seem to matter if heavy throttle or moderate throttle, it is just less responsive at low RPM. I don't think it's from the accelerator pump, but I could be wrong. It just feels sluggish. With the original bigger jetting it felt really peppy, breaking the tires loose with little throttle. I will keep playing around with it and report back. Thank you for your help guys.
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Vince
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72FordGTS
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Posted: 27-October-2024 at 1:21AM |
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I have been playing around with the carb a it more, but the driving season has come to an end. I upped my main jets to 67s and this mad a big improvement on the response. It richened up my cruise a bit, but increased my high speed air bleeds from 28 to 32 and that seemed to help lean the higher speed cruise a touch. It's running pretty well, but I need to tweak it a bit more. I also noted the choke on this carb does not work as well as the Holley. There is no pull off adjustment and I need to open the plate a touch more. I also note that this choke comes off very quickly compared to my old street avenger.
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Vince
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Steelworker77
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Posted: 09-July-2025 at 12:36PM |
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Came across this thread on a search I was doing on this exact same carb and problem. I am experiencing the same lean transition surge right before the mains are kicking in. We're you ever able to get rid of it. I also went to a .0335 ifr but still running the .070 idle air bleeds. Currently running 69 main and 77 secondary jets with a 6.5 pv. I have my idle afr right around 12.7-13:1 and that seems about spot on. I would like to drop the main down to a 68 and that should put everything really close but the larger main seems to help bring them in sooner.
Its on a blueprint 347 with 218/226 duration cam if think about .556 lift. Just seeing how you ended up.
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Steelworker77
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Posted: 09-July-2025 at 12:39PM |
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Just to add.
I have .020 of my primary transition slots showing and 1/4 turn from fully closed on the Secondaries. Currently about 9/16 out on the 4 mixture screws. |
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72 RS 351
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Posted: 09-July-2025 at 2:27PM |
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Welcome. Aren't those transition slots wider than .020"? I'm used to the desired exposed size to be a square, same amount of opening as the slot width, all four ideally. My scant experience; I only fully adjusted one Holley myself, and it was a 600 vac common unit which I added a rear metering block and drilled down to the internal bleeds to use motorcycle jets to adjust those. That was in the mid 1990's before O2 data logging was common. So I'm older and inexperienced at carbs. But I grasped the concept and got my Holley running relatively well on a mild 351W. With A/F logs you have very good test results to identify issues. The key is to overlap the carb fuel circuits properly to fill the needs of the engine. I didn't reread this thread tonight(it's late), but you should have a way to fill that perceived lean spot with jets of bleeds, plus the power valve of course. I hope you get it figured out. Night,
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Don
73 Ranchero "Sport 72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000 rpm 351 stroker 73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V &4R70W for sale later. 92 Lincoln Mark VII SE GTC, OBDII 347/4R70W |
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72FordGTS
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Posted: 09-July-2025 at 2:55PM |
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Welcome! My last setup was pretty close to good. I upped it to 68 jets and it was too rich overall, so the 67 seems to be the sweet spot for my setup. The only other change I have made since was I upped my squirter size. It's running pretty well overall, but I haven't played much around with the car since it is as I said pretty good. No issue with the lean transition off idle anymore, but I do have a bit of a lean situation when at cruise if I get on the gas a bit but not hard enough for the secondaries to kick in. This was why I upped the squirter. I have some time off this summer and hope to do some more fine tuning and will update then. I got side tracked as I pulled the transmission to change the torque converter and then did a few other little jobs on the car.
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Vince
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aquartlow
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Posted: 09-July-2025 at 10:51PM |
Vince, since the lean condition occurs after main system "start up", you could install a higher rated power valve to add additional fuel sooner to help with the lean condition but not "kill" drivability or cruising gas mileage. As you probably already know, the power valve is the fuel enrichment "switch" and the power valve channel restrictors under the power valve controls the amount of fuel that is added.
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www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires. No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t. Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone. |
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Steelworker77
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Posted: 09-July-2025 at 11:26PM |
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They are set as close to squares as I can visually see. The secondary slot is approx .020 higher so those you do not want exposed at all. If they are your idle is very rich. I can get rid of that lean spot that you had (and I have) by running a richer idle (around 12:1 or slightly richer) but I hate running the idle that rich.
I can mask the issue just as you did with running a green pump cam and a 35 squirter but if you hold it steady just at the right spot you feel/see the the lean spot just before the boosters start flowing. Seems to be a known issue with this carb from all my research I have done.
I did relocate my IFR's to the bottom of the well from the top and didnt see much change there. I see people saying even 4 corner idle carbs should still be roughly 1.5-2 turns out on the mixture screws but I dont see how that would be possible. I seem to keep ending up in the 1/2 to 3/4 range when I get an ok idle around 13:1 which the engine seems happy with. My floats are currently a 1/3rd up the sight glass. I may raise the primary float up some and see if that helps as well as go back to the stock .032 IFR and drop my Idle air bleeds to .065 and see what that does. (The .0336 along with a smaller bleed is going to make my cruise to rich). Both of those I would think should get the boosters to start flowing alittle earlier. I do run a 1" 4 hole spacer which has helped some as well. I have a couple hours tomorrow I am going to spend on it and try some various things. |
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72FordGTS
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Posted: 10-July-2025 at 4:34PM |
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I ended up with a bit richer idle than I like too, somewhere around higher 12's low 13's. I am less than one turn out on my idle mixture. I have my floats at the half way mark. I also run a spacer, but it just has a single divider down the middle. I think I went up to a 33 squirter, but this was more to help the lean
spot I was seeing when I was already at the cruise circuit and got on it
a bit but not enough for the secondaries. I may look at the power valve like Todd suggested and see if that makes any difference. Most of the other changes made as listed in this thread got ride of my lean condition I saw when going from the transition circuit to the mains. It really is pretty close to bang on now other than that lean condition I see when getting on it on the primaries only. It's 90+ % there. Keep us posted, and I will update mine when I have a chance to play with it again.
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Vince
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Rockatansky
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Posted: 12-July-2025 at 3:37AM |
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counterintuitive on it's face but a smaller accel pump nozzle extends the duration of the pump shot, i wonder if this approach might cover the lean spot? maybe a longer duration pump cam also? ![]() |
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72FordGTS
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Posted: 13-July-2025 at 4:15PM |
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I drove it today, and I don't think it's a pump shot that will fix the lean spot. It stays lean for a long time, so I am thinking I need to use a lower power valve. That said, I have other issues with the car that may have cropped up before I get back to the carb.
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Vince
1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car GTS.org Admin |
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Rockatansky
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Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6398 |
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Posted: 13-July-2025 at 4:25PM |
my pump nozzle comment was aimed at the lean gap between the transition slot to the main circuit, and there's a fair chance it might not help either? but what you said Vince about getting into it only with the primaries, that i'd say is definitely a late opening PV
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72 GT Ute
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