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351M / 460 ??? Need Some Expert Input

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Srandaz2 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 22-July-2012 at 3:24AM
Ok here is the big question(s) -
 
I know this may be longated but i feel it may be nessesary to update everyone on what my dilema is on making the right decision....
 
So we took the S&H Gran Torino out to the families house yesterday, On the way home - a guy pulled up next to us and asked if we were interested in parts for my for the car.   As any curious car guys knows I said yes - what do you have - he says well I have a whole car minus the Bumpers and a few other items off the front end. I said well if you dont mind if we look at it - we might be interested.  So we go to this guys hose and yes indeed an unmolested 1976 Torino - the car is completed dismanteld but he has all the parts.  Based on my knowledge with these cars and part avaiablity I would have to estimate there is probably about $3000 dollars or more just in parts. So I closed a deal to buy everything for $500.  (Nice)
 
With that being said my 1975 Gran Torino has the original 351W .030 bore - balanced and blueprinted rebuild with 11,000 miles on it.  The Donor car I just purchased has a 351M block which is supposedly rebuilt including new heads (I have not confirmed) and I have a Short Block 460.
 
Now - my plan is to do a slow build so i can increase HP - So here is my dilema - Seeing as the 351M has all the engine components - from the carb to the oil pan - would it be worth tearing it down and refreshing everything - Or buidling the 460 block which would obviously entail buying all new everything.
 
As aforementioned - I am in no way advocating doing this over night - with 11K on my windsor and averaging 2000 a year - I have more than enough time to plan this out.
 
I just want to know what your opinions are if you had the choice and the time........which way would you go?
 
Any input would be greatly appreciated
Steve
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquartlow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-July-2012 at 3:49AM
Which engine would you rather tell/show people you have, a 351M Smile or a 460 Thumbs Up. The 460, even in stock form, make tons of low RPM torque to motovate these heavy cars. I just couldn't pass up using a 460 compared to a 351W or M, just my .02. Todd
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote foote500 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-July-2012 at 4:17AM
I agree wholeheartedly-go 460.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mcford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-July-2012 at 4:19AM
351M = Boat anchor
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zebra 3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-July-2012 at 6:23AM

....Nothing against the 460's...wouldn't mind one myself ,BUT, to counterpoint with an opposing view I offer up this link from right here in the forums:

http://forum.grantorinosport.org/bubbas-351m-400-website-rehosted-here_topic3685&FID=6&PR=3.html

I ran a 351M in a '80 Bronco....once I gutted the pollution control junk including the EGR plate/valve and few other minor/ basic adjustments, the "stock" engine ran healthy....hardly what "I" would consider a boat anchor.  Once that motor was opened up and allowed to breath, the only thing that it would not pass was a gas station. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote madmaxtorino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-July-2012 at 7:41AM
351 m is not a boat anchor, however it does not compare to a 460. 460 will have more horsepower more torque and get decent gas mileage on a comparable build. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GranTorinoSport Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-July-2012 at 5:44AM
I always liked the 400 in my Elite. 351M/400 engines were never supported much by the aftermarket industry, as such their shortcomings can not be made up easily. But they are decent enough engines.

However, if given a choice of 351M or 460, I'd go 460 every time.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote unlovedford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-July-2012 at 6:39AM
I, too have had a 400 and it was a good strong engine. No complaints. However, if you have a good 460 and the parts needed for the swap, go for it.
Joe
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-July-2012 at 10:09AM

Originally posted by GranTorinoSport GranTorinoSport wrote:

...351M/400 engines were never supported much by the aftermarket industry, as such their shortcomings can not be made up easily. But they are decent enough engines...

 

that was true for a long time but not so much any more. a 351M can be built into a 400 by swapping the 3.5" stroke crank for the 4" crank of the 400.  pistons are available to correct the low compression height from the factory are also readily available today. factory 4V heads and all aftermarket Cleveland style heads are bolt on but running a 4V intake will require spacers.
a reliable pump gas 500+ HP is easy-peasy from a 400, and much lighter than a 460
 
to the OP; W, M or 460...
 
i'd put the $500 car together & use it as a bad weather day year round driver. if it gets in the way sell it, you should make $. when you need more power on the W i'd do a centrifugal supercharger
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robbdtme Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-July-2012 at 10:29AM
M's suffered bad with emissions detuning. 78 was the worst when compression was even dropped to 7.8:1 . I however built a few and they can perform well. Like posted you can make it a 400 but you need to change both the crank and connecting rods ( 400 rods are shorter ). They also have a balanced stroker 434 cube rotating assembly for these at about 1800.

As far as 460's I managed to blow everyone I had up just do not like any rpm's. Did make a stroker out of a 429cj into a 521 for a jetboat that would hold 6000 rpm all day long and dyno'd at 635hp. Got a little spendy but a awesome motor


Edited by Robbdtme - 23-July-2012 at 10:33AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Srandaz2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-July-2012 at 11:03AM
Thanks Everyone - I think i am going to sell the 351M with the Transmission and build the 460 - I know its heavier - but in the long run I think it might be worth the build...
Steve
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote torkair Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-July-2012 at 9:34PM
Originally posted by Robbdtme Robbdtme wrote:

Like posted you can make it a 400 but you need to change both the crank and connecting rods ( 400 rods are shorter ).


^ This is only partially correct, the rods from a 400 are exactly the same as those from a 351M, the difference is in the pistons with the 351M using a stupid huge piston to make up the difference in stroke.  With a 400 build it is possible to use pistons for a 351 Cleveland simply by bushing the small end of the connecting rod to accommodate the smaller wrist pin and decking the block to a 10.2" deck height, easy as cake!

Keep the tranny that was behind the M, it will bolt right up to the 460 without ANY sort of modification, however a rebuild would be a good idea.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote unlovedford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-July-2012 at 1:25AM
Just another reason I love this forum - great advice from people that know these cars (and Fords) through and through.
Joe
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-July-2012 at 9:58AM
Cleveland pistons on bushed rods still leaves excessive deck clearance, the bushings need to be offset to correct and bring the piston up to deck height
 
or you can just buy the right pistons www.tmeyerinc.com
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote torkair Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-July-2012 at 5:07PM
Originally posted by Rockatansky Rockatansky wrote:

Cleveland pistons on bushed rods still leaves excessive deck clearance, the bushings need to be offset to correct and bring the piston up to deck height
 
or you can just buy the right pistons www.tmeyerinc.com


BOth methods work although the Tmeyer slugs are probably cheaper than decking the block by 0.095" in order to get the desired 10.200" deck height which would also have the crown of the Cleveland pistons sitting at zero deck, just food for thought.

Edit: The Tmeyer pistons are A LOT cheaper than getting the Cleveland ones and decking the block by several hundred dollars, lol.


Edited by torkair - 24-July-2012 at 5:10PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark S. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-July-2012 at 5:33PM
Aussie Cleveland heads are the true bolt on performance booster for an "M" motorr.
 
That being said, back in the day I had a 71 LTD ragtop, with a 400M, C6, dual exhaust, Accel dual-point distributor (remember those things?) and a 500cfm Holley two barrel. Gas mileage was terrible but I took a 280Z on Rt 695 here in Jersey at 530 am in a long and very fast run, and also dug my way out of a sand pit that swallowed a few other cars. It was DAMN strong, to put it MILDLY.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Srandaz2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-July-2012 at 10:49AM
Based on everything i am reading it just appears to me if i am going to put $$ into a motor - the 460 in the long run will be more advantageous.  Like i said my original 351w has just had a birthday of 11,000 miles.  So this 460 is a slow build - who knows it might turn into a build and sell by then... lol .... I just hate the thought of passing up a free 460 Block....but appreciate all the input... its great knowledge..
Steve
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