INFO:MSD 6AL Points Trigger/OEM Tach/Duraspark/HEI |
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72FordGTS
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Posted: 07-March-2021 at 7:10AM |
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I think this thread should help you. Todd's setup sounds pretty much exactly what you are looking for and I included his pictures and diagrams of how he set his up. I believe he's also running a 3G conversion too. The only difference would be the small cap you want to run, which some say might not work as well with the higher voltages of the DuraSpark HEI setup.
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Vince
1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car GTS.org Admin |
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lynchster
Senior Member Joined: 07-January-2006 Location: Pennsylvania Status: Offline Points: 2150 |
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There's thread........
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Chuck
72 Gran Torino Sport 13 Taurus SHO "Mr Pig" |
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gentrysgarage
Member Joined: 02-January-2017 Location: lost Angels Status: Offline Points: 111 |
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I have learned a lesson today....Even if you dislike a company (in this case MSD) read the posts. It would have saved me 2-3 whole days searching the internet to come up with what Todd described here 2 weeks ago. A side note if you have a truck Junkyardgenius.com has a great inexpensive dual battery setup.
Thanks to Todd and Vince |
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aquartlow
Senior Member Joined: 19-December-2011 Location: Summerfield, Fl Status: Offline Points: 2271 |
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Nah, I just get bored easily , then I get up to my eyeballs with the work involved in trying to improve things, kinda like totally remodeling an entire bathroom because of a leaky faucet . I know, I know, It's a disease....err an obsession , but it definitely keeps things interesting .
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Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires. No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t. Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone. |
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californiajohnny
Moderator Group Joined: 05-October-2013 Location: winlock, wa Status: Offline Points: 14609 |
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damn todd, you are our "resident mad scientist"!!!
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JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE 74 VETTE CUSTOM 90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED 77 CELICA CUSTOM 75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED 79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED 75 VEGA V6 5 SPD 70 CHEV C10 P/U 68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION |
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aquartlow
Senior Member Joined: 19-December-2011 Location: Summerfield, Fl Status: Offline Points: 2271 |
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Great info showing huge differences with minute resistance changes. I examined just about every part of my ignition system, from testing distributor cap coil terminal/rotor button resistance(HUGE variances between manufacturers), magnetic pickup, testing plug wires, even spark plug resistance varied widely between resistor plugs for my application(Autolite 45, Champion RF11YC and the NGK WR5's I am currently using(least resistance).
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www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires. No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t. Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone. |
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72FordGTS
Admin Group GTS.org Admin Joined: 06-September-2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Status: Offline Points: 5846 |
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Ah, it's not bad, better than my car looks underhood now.
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Vince
1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car GTS.org Admin |
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72FordGTS
Admin Group GTS.org Admin Joined: 06-September-2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Status: Offline Points: 5846 |
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Todd mentions he used the TFI coil with .5 ohm resistance in his setup with an HEI module. The HEI modules need a low resitance coil. Coil selection seems to be very important for the module to work properly.
This is a 0.5 Ohm coil. Notice that the module hits the almost 6.0 amps, then levels off. This is the current limiting feature in the HEI coil. This is a 1.5 Ohm coil. Notice the coil takes longer to reach it's peak, and it only peaks at about 3 amps. This is more like the power on a points ignition that has a resistor wire limiting the current. This is a 4.0 Ohm coil. It probably doesn't have enough power to fire a plug. Edited by 72FordGTS - 23-March-2017 at 12:39PM |
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Vince
1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car GTS.org Admin |
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aquartlow
Senior Member Joined: 19-December-2011 Location: Summerfield, Fl Status: Offline Points: 2271 |
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Dang, I've got to do some underhood detailing.
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www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires. No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t. Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone. |
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72FordGTS
Admin Group GTS.org Admin Joined: 06-September-2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Status: Offline Points: 5846 |
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So Todd shared his pics and info with me and with his permission, I thought I'd share it on this thread for future reference. Thanks Todd! Here are some pics of coil and module mounts/locations. C) 3rd Relay takes the original ignition's resistance wire voltage and uses it as a "+" trigger on the #86 terminal, which is reduced (around 7.5 Volts or so)to save the Duraspark II's module from overheating, changes it to full battery voltage and sends it to the newer Ford E-core coils "+" terminal. All the connections that are from the battery to the relays are individually fused protected, as well as the "+" trigger wires. The ignition coils I have tested varied quite a bit, here is a run down on what I have at my shop and/or acquired over the years.Original replacement Duraspark II coil: 1.6 ohms primary 9.09K ohms secondary .9 ohms primary 4.66K ohms secondaryCrane LX92 ***must be used with capacitive ignition***: .3 ohms primary .901K ohms secondary Ford E73F coil "E-core" coil ##This is the coil I used##: .50 ohms primary 7.45K secondary Edited by 72FordGTS - 23-March-2017 at 12:50PM |
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Vince
1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car GTS.org Admin |
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72FordGTS
Admin Group GTS.org Admin Joined: 06-September-2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Status: Offline Points: 5846 |
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I have been doing some reading on the HEI modules. They definitely have some advantages over the Duraspark II, mostly with the fact that there is much more ignition energy overall with the HEI system because of the lack of resistor and the low resistance coil.
This is a great read comparing an HEI ignition's output to a stock Mopar Electronic ignition. I would think the Duraspark II would be similar to the Mopar ignition output since they are fairly close in design concept. A red strain Duraspark I system would probably be closer to a HEI, but impossible to find any real test data on that system. |
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Vince
1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car GTS.org Admin |
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72FordGTS
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Not sure on those? Maybe someone else knows. Mines off to Rocketman by the end of the week.
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Vince
1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car GTS.org Admin |
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aquartlow
Senior Member Joined: 19-December-2011 Location: Summerfield, Fl Status: Offline Points: 2271 |
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Vince,
I should be back in town on Saturday, I will look over my notes and/or wiring and hopefully post some pics.
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www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires. No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t. Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone. |
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Rockatansky
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IIRC a 3 wire Bronco tach can be swapped in also? and there was a Fox body Mustang tach too?
Edited by Rockatansky - 13-March-2017 at 2:16PM |
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72 GT Ute
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72FordGTS
Admin Group GTS.org Admin Joined: 06-September-2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Status: Offline Points: 5846 |
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Hey Todd, I know you are away, but when you get back could you post some pics of your install? I like the sound of your setup. That wiring diagram looks a little different than some of have seen. Don't the coil and module just need a switched 12 volt source? Not sure what the module is connect to the "I" terminal? Does this one look close to your setup? It even has a relay. It sounds like the HEI module triggered by a Duraspark might be the best of all worlds. The HEI is can fire a high power low resistance coil, there is no resistance wire, it has dynamic dwell, and the 5 pin even has the start retard. And on top of that modules are probably the most available ever produced. It seems these modules are used for all sorts of other makes too, even import guys use them.
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Vince
1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car GTS.org Admin |
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Big Bird
Senior Member Joined: 25-August-2013 Location: New York Status: Offline Points: 4194 |
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Some where I've got the same kind of drawing for using a Chrysler module...
Seems like the name "Duraspark" was a bit optimistic.
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"What we do in full frontal view, is more honest than your cleaned-up mind."
Randy 1979 T-Bird 2005 F-150 STX RCSB 4.6, 3.55 LSD How the Heck does a REGULAR CAB SHORTBED weigh over 5200 pounds? |
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aquartlow
Senior Member Joined: 19-December-2011 Location: Summerfield, Fl Status: Offline Points: 2271 |
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The distributor is a factory speced but remanned Duraspark unit for a '77 460(I did change the internal timing limit and advance springs for my application). I used the magnetic pickup to send signals to the 5 pin HEI mounted to an all aluminum heatsink I had that previously housed a battery isolator. The coil is a Ford TFI coil from something like a '96 Mustang 5.0(Standard FD-478). The TFI coil's low ohm resistance works excellent with the GM HEI module, too much resistance could cut down on the spark output. Also the TFI really needs full 12V at all times, unlike a regular "blue grommet" Duraspark system that uses full 12V at start-up/cranking but then relies on the resistance wire to drop ignition coil voltage to 7.5-8V give or take, the "red grommet" California emissions Duraspark system uses full 12V at both cranking/starting and in the run position. Instead of doing a bunch of wiring removal and keeping with the concept of being able to change back to original if ever wanted or needed, I used the resistance wire to trigger a Bosch 30/40 amp relay to send full 12V+ battery/alternator power going to the + coil terminal of the TFI coil, even the reduced voltage of the resistance wire trips the relay with no issues. I also wired the GM HEI with 10ga cable fused at the battery. The is the diagram I used for my ignition, just substituted the 5 pin for the 4 pin HEI module, it does show the HEI being powered by the solenoid, but I used the "I" signal to trigger the relay which allows it to power the module with 10ga wiring due to the current capability of the module:
This ignition has been very reliable. The ignition retard feature the 5 pin module has makes it easier on the starter. I may have left something out and sorry for not having pics of the actual install, right now I am out of town for work. Todd BTW, I previously had a Crane HI-6 ignition and Fireball coil installed, this seemed easier to install and if parts are needed they are just a local parts store away.
Edited by aquartlow - 12-March-2017 at 10:57AM |
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www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires. No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t. Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone. |
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72FordGTS
Admin Group GTS.org Admin Joined: 06-September-2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Status: Offline Points: 5846 |
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Todd, when you have a chance, can you share the details of your setup, what parts specifically you used and how you wired it up? Where'd you mount the HEI module and what did you use for a heat sink?Sounds like another great option, especially if you've used it in the real world and it's been reliable.
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Vince
1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car GTS.org Admin |
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aquartlow
Senior Member Joined: 19-December-2011 Location: Summerfield, Fl Status: Offline Points: 2271 |
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I like the idea of the wider cap for a higher voltage spark ignition. I use my Duraspark distributor's magnetic pickup to send signals to a 5-pin GM HEI module(2-reasons: 1) Duraspark boxes are a crap shoot at best. 2) The 5-pin HEI module allows a 5 degree ignition timing retard when a ground signal is placed upon the 5th pin. The system also uses a later model TFI coil, it has been really reliable and will straighten out the "kinkiest" hair in no time flat if you grab the business end of a plug wire. All basically stock stuff that can be easily found if a problem arises.
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www.supermotors.net/22468
Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires. No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t. Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone. |
||
72FordGTS
Admin Group GTS.org Admin Joined: 06-September-2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Status: Offline Points: 5846 |
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Yes, it looks like a late 1976 tach could be adapted to an earlier cluster. I think the hardest part would be finding one. This would eliminate the problems associated with the current sensing tach. Thanks for sharing the info on TMeyer's distributor. Since I at minimum, I plan to buy most of my internal engine parts from him, maybe by then this distributor would be released. I like the idea of it having the module inside for a cleaner look. The HEI module should offer the dynamic dwell and eliminate the need for any sort of resistor. And the module should be easier to find unlike the red strain Duraspark. It would save having to buy the overpriced Painless wiring harness too. I'd definitely prefer the smaller cap too for a more stock look, but since I have a Mustang 5.0L distributor cover, at least it would be covered.
That article you quoted doesn't seem correct to me. I have owned a few GM cars with HEI over the years and they always had significantly wider plug gaps than points style ignitions. Typically around .045" to 080" with the Chevs using smaller gaps and the BOP engines using bigger gaps. I remember my Oldsmobile 307 have .080". Regardless of the power of the coil, the ignition will only put out as much power as needed to jump the gap. So if it only requires 20,000 volts to jump the gap, regardless of whether you have a points system or a electronic system it's only going to put out 20,000 volts. The advantage to these high powered systems is that you can open up the gap which will require more voltage jump the gap and thus a hotter spark. I think you'd lose the advantage a Duraspark I system would have if you ran the same small gap as a points system. Of course, at higher RPM as inductive systems loose energy, these larger gaps may be too much for the ignition to fire and this could result in misfire. This was the issue with early GM HEI systems. But GM fixed that with later more advance HEI modules and it seems now the aftermarket has modules that can support a hot spark up to very high RPM. FWIW, DUI ignitions recommend about a .055" plug gap with their HEI distributors. I am not sure about the large cap/cross fire issue. I thought I read on the Pantera board most guys run the small cap for firewall clearance with a Duraspark conversion. Doesn't seem like any issues there with the small cap that I came across. I know later GM HEI systems on the fuel injection vehicles went to a small cap with an external coil. I would like to run the small cap too. I like the idea of using a AMC small cap with the male terminals.
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Vince
1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car GTS.org Admin |
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californiajohnny
Moderator Group Joined: 05-October-2013 Location: winlock, wa Status: Offline Points: 14609 |
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IIRC the older points type coils were about 30,000 volts and typically used a plug gap of .035 for the lessor voltage, the round aftermarket coils were about 40,000 volts and the HEI coils were 60,000 volts and would use a plug gap of about .050 my HEI dist. i put in my toyota, davis recommends a gap of .060!!! but i kept them at .050 no issues
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JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE 74 VETTE CUSTOM 90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED 77 CELICA CUSTOM 75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED 79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED 75 VEGA V6 5 SPD 70 CHEV C10 P/U 68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION |
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lynchster
Senior Member Joined: 07-January-2006 Location: Pennsylvania Status: Offline Points: 2150 |
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I have to find the article but if I remember what I read correctly the larger gap promotes a hotter spark. I'm guessing it draws more from the ignition to produce the hotter spark and could arch between the closer terminals in the smaller cap. (?)
I'm not looking for any gap in particular, just what's going to work. Found the one based on an HEI. Don't be tempted to excessively widen the gap. The correct gap is 0.035"- 0.040" for the majority of cases. Using plug gaps wider than that is unnecessary when using a basically stock HEI ignition. Wider plug gaps (or faulty ignition wires) cause voltage spikes in order for a spark to occur. This in turn causes the cap to fill with ionized air, and this can cause erosion/degradation to the components along with spark scatter and/or voltage bypassing to the distributor advance mechanism, shaft, etc. It is hard on the secondary ignition components in general and just isn't needed in the vast majority of cases. The large diameter of the cap helps to prevent this and it works well enough in a passenger car, even with the wider gaps that were used for some applications. But once the RPM goes up and the cylinder pressure increases, the chance of a misfire increases dramatically with a wider plug gap. http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/wiki/Hot_rodding_the_HEI_distributor I also found one that the one guy said it depends on the coil you use. The older coils will use tighter gaps than the newer high output ones. It's been a while since I've revisited the ignition system for my car. I could do the older style coil but what effect does that have on a Duraspark 1 set up that the factory is calling for a plug gap of .60. The question I have to answer is can the plug gap be tightened with the Duraspark 1 with an older coil. Edited by lynchster - 11-March-2017 at 5:33PM |
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Chuck
72 Gran Torino Sport 13 Taurus SHO "Mr Pig" |
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Rockatansky
Senior Member Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6072 |
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you'd need to use the tighter plug gap because of the proximity of the terminals in the small cap? MSD uses a small diameter cap for high output applications ... how much plug gap are you looking for?
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72 GT Ute
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lynchster
Senior Member Joined: 07-January-2006 Location: Pennsylvania Status: Offline Points: 2150 |
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The current set up I'm considering is using the old style small cap for a stock look. From what I've read I have to use the smaller spark plug gap as well. If that's the case I'm wondering if I can still use the more powerful Duraspark 1 box or will that only create arching in the distributor cap. Edited by lynchster - 11-March-2017 at 1:23PM |
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Chuck
72 Gran Torino Sport 13 Taurus SHO "Mr Pig" |
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Rockatansky
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so can a late 76 tach be retro'd into the early gauge console housing & use the original face?
i forgot about this option, still not available yet https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=10155079098013762&id=173003588761 but the dizzy will accept the old black points style cap, small blue electronic and the 2 piece Duraspark shown in the pic. there's also a small AMC cap with HEI towers that fits
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72 GT Ute
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72FordGTS
Admin Group GTS.org Admin Joined: 06-September-2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Status: Offline Points: 5846 |
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Yeah, you're right. I think in partway through 1976 they switched to three wire. Why Ford stuck with current sensing tachs and ammeters for so long is a mystery.
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Vince
1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car GTS.org Admin |
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californiajohnny
Moderator Group Joined: 05-October-2013 Location: winlock, wa Status: Offline Points: 14609 |
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i believe the later tachs used a three wire connection like most others and not the two wire pulse voltage sensing method
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JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE 74 VETTE CUSTOM 90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED 77 CELICA CUSTOM 75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED 79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED 75 VEGA V6 5 SPD 70 CHEV C10 P/U 68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION |
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72FordGTS
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Hey Chuck,
and here: http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1203970-attn-numberdummy.html I also wonder if you use another coil, even a Duraspark I coil and run a fulll 12volts to this system without the resistor (the module gets a full 12volts in both systems). I have also read about guys using GM HEI modules with Duraspark. The HEI modules have dynamic dwell and are cheap, but not sure if this setup would be reliable or if it offers any real world advantage over a stock module. With the Rocketman tach conversion, it will eliminate it from the ignition circuit. I like the idea of using the original ignition switch just to trigger a relay. This keeps a lot of current out of the old hard to replace ignition switch and old wiring. There is also no need to remove the resistor wire or alter the factory harness. I actually use the ignition switch to trigger a relay to supply 12 volts to my choke and Pertronix right now, although I still have the coil power running through the circuit. so the Tach works. If I do need a resistor in the circuit for Duraspark the Painless wiring kit comes with a resistor. http://www.painlessperformance.com/webcat/30812
Edited by 72FordGTS - 11-March-2017 at 6:19AM |
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Vince
1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car GTS.org Admin |
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lynchster
Senior Member Joined: 07-January-2006 Location: Pennsylvania Status: Offline Points: 2150 |
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I'm interested in what you work out if you don't mind updating when you're done. I happen to be in a similar predicament.
I bought a recurved duraspark distributor and had planned on running an MSD box with the rev limiter. However after reading this thread I'm now considering using a duraspark box and I was leaning toward durapark 1. The resister wire does complicate things. Now I'm wondering if I send the tach out to be updated (different thread) would that alleviate the problem of the resister wire. For now I chucked the original dual point back in it and after all these years it still works. Edited by lynchster - 10-March-2017 at 4:15PM |
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Chuck
72 Gran Torino Sport 13 Taurus SHO "Mr Pig" |
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72FordGTS
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Thanks for the info. Still undecided which way I am going to go, but I may look harder at Duraspark if I can get it to work with the Tach. I always thought that Duraspark needed 12 volts to coil, which is true for Dura Spark I, but Dura Spark 2 uses a resistor wire. If that's the case, I might be able to get the Tach to work with it. It's just too bad Dura Spark II doesn't have the adjustable dwell like Dura Spark 1.
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Vince
1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car GTS.org Admin |
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