The Ford Torino Page Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > Powertrain Specific Forum > 335 Series Engine Forum
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Lifter 1 out. 351c/4spd.
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Lifter 1 out. 351c/4spd.

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
Message
Anderslober View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 30-July-2019
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Points: 763
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anderslober Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Lifter 1 out. 351c/4spd.
    Posted: 26-September-2022 at 7:51AM
I took all the lifters out today…don’t worry….everything is kept in order!
Oiling hole clogged!….
Take a look at the picture. Thats how far I could take it apart. It looks nothing like other lifters I have taken apart.
The whole ‘bottom’ end of the lifter cant be removed.
Spring action is from a tab.

Back to Top
72 RS 351 View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 04-September-2014
Location: Knoxville TN
Status: Offline
Points: 2765
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72 RS 351 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-September-2022 at 11:03AM
If the lifters look that rough, it's a good time to change them.
Don
73 Ranchero "Sport 72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000+ rpm 351-4V &4R70W
73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V &4R70W for sale later.
92 Lincoln Mark VII SE GTC, OBDII 347/4R70W
Back to Top
Rockatansky View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 30-July-2010
Location: On The Road
Status: Offline
Points: 6059
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-September-2022 at 11:48AM
i was waiting for this

any time you put your peepers on a 50 year old cam & lifters they're gonna be junk



Edited by Rockatansky - 26-September-2022 at 12:00PM
72 GT Ute
   
Back to Top
Anderslober View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 30-July-2019
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Points: 763
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anderslober Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-September-2022 at 12:46PM
Great video! Yes…..maybe it’s time to change the lifters. I will take a good look at the cam tomorrow.
Recommendations appreciated. Stock setup.
JB900 lifters and a good cam…..? Thanks 
Back to Top
Rockatansky View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 30-July-2010
Location: On The Road
Status: Offline
Points: 6059
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-September-2022 at 12:51PM
100% recommendation is Don't Run A Stock Set-Up

have you read through this?

https://pantera.infopop.cc/topic/sticky-3-351c-basics-and-performance-tuning

the stock valves are a major liability, it's not IF but WHEN they will separate and destroy your engine

more info here

https://pantera.infopop.cc/topic/cobra-jet-unleashing-the-performance-capabilities-of-351-cleveland-engines-with-open-chamber-4v-heads-q-code


72 GT Ute
   
Back to Top
Anderslober View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 30-July-2019
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Points: 763
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anderslober Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-September-2022 at 12:44AM
Man…you are scaring me!🍻 I will look into it, but I am not interested in ‘performance’-stuff. Just normal/stock setup.

I have tried ‘performance’ stuff on a Pontiac 400 engine….it did nothing markedly better…but, damn, it cost alotta! gazinks!
Back to Top
72 RS 351 View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 04-September-2014
Location: Knoxville TN
Status: Offline
Points: 2765
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72 RS 351 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-September-2022 at 7:17AM
Back in the 70's the stock valve issue was barely known. The stock cam lift is very low, so the lower lift has less stress on the valves and springs etc. So the stock valves have survived fairly well for so long I think because of the mild cam etc.

If you have the heads off, I'd consider changing the valves and valve seats. I don't know what it would cost there, and I haven't priced any machine work here in 20 years. The valves I think I've seen for $150 or so, last year. The machine work to change the valve seats might be notable or high.

The 4V heads don't need a ton of cam lift for mild builds, so the typical flat tappet cams people choose for the 4V heads, should be fine. But I'd still want a recommendation from a knowledgeable Cleveland guy. I have a new Rhoads cam and lifter kit I'd like to sell some day, but you are too far away to be a good suggestion for you.
Don
73 Ranchero "Sport 72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000+ rpm 351-4V &4R70W
73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V &4R70W for sale later.
92 Lincoln Mark VII SE GTC, OBDII 347/4R70W
Back to Top
Anderslober View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 30-July-2019
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Points: 763
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anderslober Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-September-2022 at 7:43AM
I looked at the cam today. Wear patterns looked good. (Comparing with utube video from earlier post).
Now…….IF……IF…..I wanted to change cam….would the Melling MTF2 work? 0.511 max lift.
Again……I am not interested in ‘performance-this-n-that’….
Just normal stocky stuff.
I do need new lifters….I am most likely going with USA-made Melling jb900’s. I am also changing the push rods…Melling MPR309 rods…….and possibly the MTF2 cam. Will this fit the stock springs etc, etc?(Melling, mellling, melling…..seems like it would go nicely together)
Again..I want the motor to run good, but no ‘performance’-stuff,
Any ideas and thoughts welcomed.👍🤠
Back to Top
handsofstone View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 13-April-2018
Location: Northeast
Status: Offline
Points: 3941
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote handsofstone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-September-2022 at 7:53AM
Put a straight edge across the contact area on the lifters, if you see any light they are done. The links that Rock posted are an incredible resource on any build.
Back to Top
Anderslober View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 30-July-2019
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Points: 763
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anderslober Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-September-2022 at 8:02AM
Exactly what I did. Lifters are concave….measured 3 of them. They should be slightly convex. So, lifters are being changed.
Back to Top
Anderslober View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 30-July-2019
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Points: 763
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anderslober Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-September-2022 at 8:07AM
The mtf2 cam seems like a good cam………..just need confirmation that it will work in my stock setup……
This is slowly snowballin’…harharhar🤠🍻🍹
Back to Top
72 RS 351 View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 04-September-2014
Location: Knoxville TN
Status: Offline
Points: 2765
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72 RS 351 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-September-2022 at 9:19AM
The valve springs are important for control of the whole assembly at all rpm's, a .511 lift cam will need different springs, and I hope what you have now aren't old. You don't want old valve springs, those are a normal must replace part at high mileage or age.

I would have the heads checked over well at a trusted machine shop. Let them tell you how the valves and other parts look. If they have high mileage, almost for sure the valve springs and valve guides are shot, so the basic cost for rebuilding will be most of what you might choose to do. The extra cost of valves might be just the $150 or so, same for springs. So it leaves you deciding about the valves, and the seats plus the installation of those.

So if you change the springs, those should be chosen based on the camshaft, stock or otherwise. A well known valve spring source is Alex's Parts, they have been very well liked by tons of people, maybe they have a reasonable valve spring kit for the Cleveland. Parts supplies are scarce all over, be patient when sourcing things.
Don
73 Ranchero "Sport 72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000+ rpm 351-4V &4R70W
73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V &4R70W for sale later.
92 Lincoln Mark VII SE GTC, OBDII 347/4R70W
Back to Top
Anderslober View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 30-July-2019
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Points: 763
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anderslober Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-September-2022 at 3:54PM
New push rods too? With mtf2……
Or will the stock/original push rods work?
Back to Top
72 RS 351 View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 04-September-2014
Location: Knoxville TN
Status: Offline
Points: 2765
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72 RS 351 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-September-2022 at 2:45AM
If you change the camshaft lift then it's very likely it will need new pushrods, which can be had in lengths to work. But it will take some time to figure out what length is needed. You mock it up with the new parts and the old pushrods, gently tightening the rocker bolts as you measure for lifter preload. The lifters need to be depressed at least about .035", the usual amount is in the .025-.040" range, stock should fall there now.
Don
73 Ranchero "Sport 72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000+ rpm 351-4V &4R70W
73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V &4R70W for sale later.
92 Lincoln Mark VII SE GTC, OBDII 347/4R70W
Back to Top
72FordGTS View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar
GTS.org Admin

Joined: 06-September-2005
Location: Ontario, Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 5802
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-September-2022 at 6:40PM
You might want to read some of George Pence's articles on cams before you decide on a replacement.  Check out this page here, there are some articles specific to the Q-code.


Otherwise if you are sticking with a stock cam, at least use a late 1971 version so its timing is not retarded.
Vince

1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car

GTS.org Admin
Back to Top
Anderslober View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 30-July-2019
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Points: 763
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anderslober Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-September-2022 at 7:22PM
Thanks. Great articles and info.
Regarding the cam……so, it IS the cam that is retarded 4 degrees?
On page 21-22-28 of the 1972 car shop manual there are cam numbers for 351c-4v.
Lobe lift 247/262. Valve lift 427/453.
The Melling mtf2 is probably not a good choice.
Melling SYB29 or CS650 are probably better. They are closer to stock.
But, how would I know about the 4 degrees?

Back to Top
72FordGTS View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar
GTS.org Admin

Joined: 06-September-2005
Location: Ontario, Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 5802
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-September-2022 at 9:16PM
George laid out all the camshaft specs in this chart:


Better than the 1971 camshaft would be his revised cam shown at the end of this chart. For that cam you might have to bump the compression ro gst ro his recommended DCR. Here is what he says:

The original Cobra Jet camshaft combined a race cam exhaust lobe for good high rpm performance along with a short duration intake lobe for good drivability, the specs were 270°/290°. The camshaft had low overlap (46°) which also contributed to good low rpm power and drivability. It opened the valves quite a bit for a street cam designed in 1966 (the original application was the 390 GT), the lift specs were 0.481/0.490.

I've revised the Cobra Jet camshaft lobe centerlines, setting them at 105°/115°. This has the effect of narrowing the lobe centerline separation angles to 110°, and timing the camshafts 5° advanced. That's fairly standard camshaft timing for this day and age. Be assured I haven't done anything strange or wonky. Thus reconfigured the intake valve closes at 60° ABDC, which is 10° to 16° earlier depending upon which camshaft timing you are comparing it to. The purpose behind this change is to build good dynamic compression with lower static compression. Narrowing the lobe centerline separation angle increased overlap, which is now 60°. This is very close to the same overlap as the original Boss 351; its not excessive but you wouldn't want any more than that for a street engine. The overlap period is now centered very well around top dead center, and it is within the dwell period at TDC. This serves to minimize the effect overlap has upon the engine's low rpm performance and drivability. The exhaust valve opens early enough to encourage high rpm performance even with a quietly muffled exhaust system. The intake valve begins opening 10° to 16° earlier and reaches full open 10° to 16° earlier, this makes more horsepower. Thus the revised Cobra Jet camshaft has all the benefits of an aftermarket narrow LSA camshaft without any of the typical drawbacks.

Unfortunately camshafts ground to this specification are not available off-the-shelf, they shall have to be custom ordered. I shall provide specifications for moderate lift hydraulic cams, high lift hydraulic cams, and high lift solid tappet cams, for either flat tappets or roller tappets (something for everyone) in another section below. When combining these cams with the factory iron heads I recommend keeping the static compression ratio within the range of 9.05:1 to 9.65:1, with a recommended target of 9.3:1 static compression or 7.7:1 dynamic compression.

The Cobra Jet engines, equipped with open chamber 4V heads and my revised version of the Cobra Jet camshaft, shall achieve higher output than engines equipped with quench chamber 4V heads due to (1) improved air flow at low valve lift as a result of unshrouding the valves and (2) due to opening the intake valve significantly earlier due to moving the intake lobe centerline to 105° ATDC.









Edited by 72FordGTS - 28-September-2022 at 9:30PM
Vince

1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car

GTS.org Admin
Back to Top
handsofstone View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 13-April-2018
Location: Northeast
Status: Offline
Points: 3941
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote handsofstone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-September-2022 at 5:21AM
George's articles are easy to understand. I enjoy reading them. Thanks you and Rock for posting relevant the relevant works of this man.
Back to Top
72 RS 351 View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 04-September-2014
Location: Knoxville TN
Status: Offline
Points: 2765
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72 RS 351 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-September-2022 at 6:03AM
The original cams were retarded in the cam itself, and some retrofit replacement stuff might be too. I;d avoid any cam that is touting to emulate a stock cam grind. Cam technology is way better than it was in 1970. Any decent brand cam with a mild intended rpm should be notably better than stock anything. The stock intake is poor, 5500rpm is actually restrictive for those intakes. The head ports are capable of 7000rpm, but the valvetrain is not, it's decent for 5500rpm or so.

So concentrate on the primary valvetrain parts as already suggested, those will cost enough that you won't be wishing you spent more.
Don
73 Ranchero "Sport 72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000+ rpm 351-4V &4R70W
73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V &4R70W for sale later.
92 Lincoln Mark VII SE GTC, OBDII 347/4R70W
Back to Top
Anderslober View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 30-July-2019
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Points: 763
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anderslober Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-September-2022 at 6:06AM
Yes..that chart and info were awesome. Only thing the charted needed was lift specs.👍🍹
Big question now….will 491 lift clear the pistons? Stock setup…stock springs and pushrods and lifters.

I have bought a new set of lifters. 16xjb900.
Back to Top
72 RS 351 View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 04-September-2014
Location: Knoxville TN
Status: Offline
Points: 2765
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72 RS 351 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-September-2022 at 8:16AM
If you change the lift by adding .040" to it, then the pushrods will be a little long. You should check for PTV clearance with any changes of the cam or pistons etc. Don't reuse the stock springs.
Don
73 Ranchero "Sport 72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000+ rpm 351-4V &4R70W
73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V &4R70W for sale later.
92 Lincoln Mark VII SE GTC, OBDII 347/4R70W
Back to Top
Rockatansky View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 30-July-2010
Location: On The Road
Status: Offline
Points: 6059
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-September-2022 at 11:15AM
considering the 1971 Cobra-Jet (Q code) D1ZZ-6250-A cam as a baseline, the 1972 D2ZZ-6250-B cam has 4* of retard ground in. other than that the 2 cams are identical so if you were to advance the D2ZZ-6250-B cam 4*you'd be at 1971 specs. FWIW in 1973 Ford changed the crank timing gear by adding an additional 4* retard for a whopping 8* retard from 1971 specs. my contention is that any aftermarket stock replacement or performance double row chain timing set can conform to the 1973 standard, 8* retarded. the only way to know is to go through the process of degreeing your cam to find out.


as far as matching the static compression ratio to the cam, notice the IVC (Intake Valve Close) of the cams in the chart. the actual point that the intake valve closes is when the cylinder can begin to compress it's contents. the earlier (lower number, fewer degrees ABDC) the intake valve closes the more cylinder pressure or DCR (Dynamic Compression Ratio)  the engine will produce. better DCR means better thermal efficiency, more power. this is a good thing unless you make too much DCR for your available or chosen fuel, then you'll have to back off the ignition timing to prevent engine damaging detonation or spark knock. general consensus is that up to about 8:1 DCR is safe for premium fuel target a little lower for some safety margin, thus the 7.7:1 dynamic compression ratio George mentions in italic above. not too many people talk about what the safe limit is for regular fuel? i calculate the 1972 Q code engine at 8.4:1 static compression ratio, paired with Georges 60* IVC cam that makes right at 7:1 DCR at sea level which is where Denmark is for the most part. i'd be surprised if 7:1 DCR wouldn't run no issues on regular fuel?

i'm not sure if the cam in this article is the same cam in the chart, i don't see the 5* advance from the numbers shown.


the MTF2 cam from what i can figure closes the intake valve at 62* ABDC, pretty close to the 60* IVC i've been using for calcs, paired with the 8.4:1 static compression ratio of the 1972 Q code engine it makes about 6.9:1 DCR, just a hair safer on regular fuel. the very slight increase in lift doesn't worry me at all in regards to pushrod length or stock rocker compatibility but the 50 year old valve springs should be renewed with a set confirmed suitable for the lift and compatible with the valve spring retainers. the stock retainers will probably not work with the single groove valve locks that will be needed for new single groove valves. the stock retainers and locks are a package and probably not interchangeable. picking new valvetrain hardware can get tricky!

BTW, the MTF2 cam looks to be the same as Elgin E-953-P


Edited by Rockatansky - 01-October-2022 at 5:59AM
72 GT Ute
   
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.06
Copyright ©2001-2023 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.141 seconds.