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moose0211 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 20-March-2011 at 9:50AM
The Forum's been a little slow lately so I figured I'd ask a stupid question. Without doing a frame-off restoration and painting my frame, etc. What is the most I can really do to prevent rust? Take it to Zebart and get an undercoating or attempt to paint the underside with POR15? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psquare75 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-March-2011 at 9:55AM
Wire Brush what you can, Zero Rust on the frame, and undercoat over that. You can get quite a bit.


As for in the frame rails, 'they' make a gun that has a long wand on it, that is possible to shove in the rails, and if you spray as you twist, it does a nice job coating inside. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lynchster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-March-2011 at 10:51AM
I have to agree. Ziebart is only going to trap moisture and excelerate the problem without prep. Set it up on jackstands and do sections at a time, as best you can do and it should go along way toward preserving the car for some time.
If you have the time and place you can do some disassembly such as pulling the rear end, dropping the tank, or unbolting the lines from the frame rails. 


Edited by lynchster - 20-March-2011 at 10:52AM
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  If it can be easlly cut out  and another piece welded in place. The next best thing is to slow it down in it's tracks. Rust is never stopped once it is in inaccessable area. As inside frame rails or rocker panels, roof pillars ,cowl areas and doglegs on a car.
  I live in Montreal ,Canada . This is the rust capital of North America. This is due to salt used in the winter months. Untill the Quebec gouverment started cracking down on rust buckets.
   If the rust is flaking the frame on both inside and out . In no time it will be soft and a hole will come through. Then cut and welding a good frame part will be in the order. Some places do require the total frame be replaced or a certified welder sign off on the job.  One way to slow rust is a good penatrent (PB blaster)and finish with Spray grease in a can or (Fluid film). Por 15 is great for easy to get to areas . Also rust converters will help. Tremclad paint and primer ,made for steel are better suited for body panels. These are  things I have done and have happened to me in montreal. With 30 years of driving North America made strong cars ,but car companys would want us to buy cars every 3 years.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote interceptor460 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-March-2011 at 2:49PM
 An added note.  I find some car models or car companies design , or the quality of steel used is more rust resistant than other cars. Areas on a car I mentioned  on the previous post as trouble spots for rusts are the ones which also cost alot to repair or hide other problems once rust is visable there.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Billy C Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-March-2011 at 8:33AM
The best way to prevent rust is pulling everything apart down to the individual pieces and painting what you can and replacing what you can with stainless hardware that wont rust. Just painting the frame is 1000% better than the way it is from the factory. Doing a frame off is a big undertaking but results in a great product and feeling when completed, that feeling alone is sometimes more beneficial than the work itself in my opinion. 
But, if you are the kind of person that just wants to drive for crying out loud, I suggest that every time you change your motor oil to take the old oil and mix it with some kind of thinner for oil paints to thin the oil. Take that mixture and put it in a spray bottle or old air paint sprayer (very effective) and get the car up on jacks. Get some dirty cloths on and GO WILD.  Cover everything in oil (except brake rotors and pads). Get it in the frame and in the wheel wells, bolts, suspension, and if you do get it on the exhaust expect to smell oil for a week. I guarantee the car will pretty much never rust if you do this as often as you change your oil. It's messy and doesn't look that great but very effective.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote interceptor460 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-March-2011 at 9:23AM
To Billy C and everyone else. A full restoration is a great solition to rust prevention .To someone how has the  time and money. One thing is a big MYTH and no no, is coating the car with USED OIL. It is mixed with acids caused by combution gases and dirt traped in it . Not only this used oil a pollution hazzard it will speed up rust with the acids in the oil.
  Yes I have tried it .At first I thought it did good the more I looked .The better the pentrent and grease system worked .You will clean the car and let it dry well .Then go to work. Clean lubrcants are better than cantaminated ones.
  I used oil from oil changes it is a mess and is good only if you are on a budget .  Which I was when I was younger. I know I will get flak for my comments . Rest assured Used Engine Oil is Acid Contaminated Oil.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psquare75 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-March-2011 at 10:40AM
To be honest, I think some of us go a little crazy doing a frame off for no reason (not pointing fingers at anyone here, just a general observation). IMO a low mileage car that is 'clean', REALLY doesn't need a "frame off" if you're not driving it in rain or snow, and the car is garaged. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Blueoval76 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-March-2011 at 11:03AM
Originally posted by Psquare75 Psquare75 wrote:

To be honest, I think some of us go a little crazy doing a frame off for no reason (not pointing fingers at anyone here, just a general observation). IMO a low mileage car that is 'clean', REALLY doesn't need a "frame off" if you're not driving it in rain or snow, and the car is garaged. 
 
 
 
I have to agree with this statement as I have never done a frame off. I had my 66 Ranchero for 10 years and the only thing I did was tack a couple of patch pieces over the few holes in the floor. The rust that was there never moved or got worse and I drove it rain or shine. I dont see rain or shine rusting away a car period. Now salt infused with calcium chloride that is a whole nother story. Big smile


Edited by Blueoval76 - 21-March-2011 at 11:04AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Billy C Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-March-2011 at 11:03AM
Ok ok ok, I know oil is probably not the best way to do it but it is practically free.  
I don't use anything other than silicone grease in spots here and there on my torino but before I tore the thing down this summer I drove it all winter last winter in slush and mud and didn't see any problems with using the oil. I still cover my little 89' Honda Civic with oil and even bare metal spots that where starting to bubble a bit when I got the car still in the same condition after driving it all winter.
I am not a chemist at all so I am not going to go into anything involving Oxygen combining with Iron and catalysts in water and electrons jumping around but Oil DOES suffocate the steel which prevents oxygen in any form from getting to the steel and in order to make what we call rust an O needs to be consumed to make the combo so if there is no left over O lying around then rust does not happen.  
Helpful.. seems to keep things from rusting too me.
Hazardous.. ya, probably
Dirty.. ya, who cares?
Ineffective.. maybe in some cases 
Actually makes the situation worse.. Please explain.

Don't want to hijack this thread with this but I am really curious on this.

Any other thoughts from anyone else?


Edited by Billy C - 21-March-2011 at 11:05AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Billy C Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-March-2011 at 11:10AM
Originally posted by Blueoval76 Blueoval76 wrote:

Originally posted by Psquare75 Psquare75 wrote:

To be honest, I think some of us go a little crazy doing a frame off for no reason (not pointing fingers at anyone here, just a general observation). IMO a low mileage car that is 'clean', REALLY doesn't need a "frame off" if you're not driving it in rain or snow, and the car is garaged. 
 
 
 
I have to agree with this statement as I have never done a frame off. I had my 66 Ranchero for 10 years and the only thing I did was tack a couple of patch pieces over the few holes in the floor. The rust that was there never moved or got worse and I drove it rain or shine. I dont see rain or shine rusting away a car period. Now salt infused with calcium chloride that is a whole nother story. Big smile

I did mine mostly for the educational experience and the feeling I have driving around in a car that I KNOW, I mean really KNOWWWW. Diving into a car down to the frame yourself is a wild experience. These old cars have so much character.  From the spatter and wire sticking out of the welds to the old plastic candy wrapper stuffed in one of the frame rails.  Really awesome! Plus I am young and have no ties, a house with a garage, really cool parents, and I hold a good job to fund the project. I figure now or never. 


Edited by Billy C - 21-March-2011 at 11:12AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote interceptor460 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-March-2011 at 11:15AM
  To Psqure75 I agree with you.  Only as the roads being salted in the winter as they do in Quebec . Cars are scraped very early,because of the salt causing rust. I myself have no time for a restoration even if I owned a Boss 429 mustang.  While growning up in Montreal ,Canada in the 70's. People used to drive their cars all year round. I would see cars rusted out untill the police would force you off the road as a hazzard.
  There are not to many good old cars that you can claim that are not winter driven here. It is only the lack of them here in Montreal that poeple are more and more taking care of them.
  I got lucky with my ex-police 75 torino it too has seen winter ,but for about 3 to 4 years only. And it is  pretty solid with original paint .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moose0211 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-March-2011 at 1:35PM
Thanks guys. I am probably just going to wire brush the hell of it and paint it with POR15 or Zerorust, whichever is cheaper. Sadly my car isn't garagedShocked,  And oil doesnt sound like the cleanest way, but how does it speed rust up? Thanks again. 

Edited by moose0211 - 22-March-2011 at 1:35PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote interceptor460 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-March-2011 at 4:11PM
If you look at my replies. I wrote that USED ENGINE OIL has ACIDS in it. This is due to combution gas and dirt. The penatrent and spray grease or (fluid film and Clean oil) in side frame rails and hard to get areas will stop or slow rust down. I have a daily driver that travels on  salt coated winter roads and in hot summer months also. It has not rusted away and oil does not drip in summer on the roads. My car is a 1978 pontiac .It has seen 30 winters and it is solid. Please reread my posts. Oil mybe messy ,but in a day or 2 it will stop dripping and soak into the pores and seams of the steel. Paints and tar coat metal only.
     In warmer areas the main cause of rust is near the ocean (salt water) or hot day and cool nights. This creates condensation on the car. You will see a sheet of water that coats the car in the early morning. This will also collect on the insides of the car metal. As in roof pillars, trunks, hoods ,rookers panels ,  doglegs and any part on a car. By midday it has drip down and collected and pooled or driped out through the drain holes. The insides are just bare metal on many cars and rust starts. Always keep drain holes clean on a car.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote interceptor460 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-March-2011 at 4:20PM

Rust proofing a car is a never ending battle and a science .In northern areas it is a money maker for the rust proofing industry. At one point tar was king ,then used oil ,rust converters,electric boxes that claim to stop rust . Rust paints for metal and used engine oil or wax oils . There is so much out there and it marketing ,but stay informed ask questions it's your car. You paid for it ,a good car will hold value .

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eliteman76 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-March-2011 at 5:00AM
I don't know...I took my body off the frame because I wanted a clean frame that didn't look like crap.
Paul is right though, get at what you can if you can't pull the body.
To be honest though, if you can rent two large engine hoists, you can pull the body pretty easy for working on the frame.
Ask me how I know...Wink
 
Now, granted, I was able to use a forklift to lift the body off the frame for sand blasting, but you can use a single large cherry picker providing you safely support the tub.
Not the white trash method I devised. I nearly killed myself.
 
I will mention Eastwood recently started selling cans of rust converter/encapsulator with a long tube hose and radiant nozzle. Thinking of getting it for the GTS.
Otherwise, I was going to harbor freight, and buying an undercoating gun kit, and using por15.
My problem is {face palm, please, Paul...actually start trek double palm} I never thought to do the inside of my frame after blasting.
Amazingly enough, after 8+ years of abuse, the por15 on my frame has held up AWESOME.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psquare75 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-March-2011 at 5:05AM
Originally posted by Eliteman76 Eliteman76 wrote:


My problem is {face palm, please, Paul...actually start trek double palm} I never thought to do the inside of my frame after blasting.

 
 

Wow.


I too, have seen that Eastwood kit. I don't want to be the first person to try it though. LOL

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Regul8r Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-March-2011 at 5:22AM
Andy post me a link to the Eastwood stuff you mentioned.
 
as for saying a wasted frame off...
 
I think IF you have a decent car then for a couple weeks worth of work to just pull the body off, run a wire wheel over the frame and paint to preserve it from worse and run the wire brush on the body bottom and paint it too then you are doing a GREAT preventative measure.
 
The problem is when you do that then you start thinking... well IF I do that then I should do this and that and TA DA... FULL RESTO!
Now if you go in to it with a FOCUS... painting a frame to prevent future rot by pulling the body is do-able.
That is the route I HAVE to go on Ol' Brown. I have to replace the rear half of the frame with the one from the yellow 72. Ol' Brown is ROTTED BAD! but I am not doing a frame off RESTO, just a rear frame replacement with a good clean up and preventative clean up and painting. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eliteman76 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-March-2011 at 5:31AM
Paul...
 
Anyways...back to topic
Carl, you hit it perfect.
 
Take one project at a time. DO NOT view as an overall mountain of crap to do. You will never get things done. Look at my car. I've got 10 years into it, and still not done, because I got bogged down alot. Time. Money...and looking at the car going "Good Lord I have a mountain of crap to fix!"
 
Just my thoughts...one thing at a time.
 
For the money and effort...I'd pull a frame, get it sand blasted, POR15 it, and put back together.
If the car is not going to be driven any time soon, you have nothing to lose.
 
What sucks is, I wish as a group alot of us maniacs were at least not 6 states apart, otherwise would be alot easier to tag team big projects to help out.
 
I sand blasted that frame myself. 7 hours of hell. Then I used some small foam rollers, and brushes and did the frame hanging off that forklift.
 


Edited by Eliteman76 - 23-March-2011 at 5:32AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psquare75 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-March-2011 at 5:46AM
Originally posted by cowboyupdjcarl cowboyupdjcarl wrote:

Andy post me a link to the Eastwood stuff you mentioned.
 
as for saying a wasted frame off...
 
I think IF you have a decent car then for a couple weeks worth of work to just pull the body off, run a wire wheel over the frame and paint to preserve it from worse and run the wire brush on the body bottom and paint it too then you are doing a GREAT preventative measure.
 
The problem is when you do that then you start thinking... well IF I do that then I should do this and that and TA DA... FULL RESTO!
Now if you go in to it with a FOCUS... painting a frame to prevent future rot by pulling the body is do-able.

Do you want a garage ornament? Or an actual functioning vehicle? I've had both.  . I prefer the latter, lol. The snowball effect is in full play here. If you are going for a full on show car that you intend to show, it's necessary. Investment value? Defintely, go for it. For the experience? By all means, whatever floats your boat. 

Case in point. Father's 57 Bel Air. He's had it since 1979. Drove it for a year, parked it. finished it in 1991 (blame myself for that, ha). Cruise nights, daily driven a few days a year, driven far (MA to PA, etc), rain or shine, for shows. Car is "usually" garaged, but not always. No winter driving. Frame just got an ungodly dose of industrial undercoating in the early 80s. 

Guess what? it's fine. He doesn't regret not doing a frame off. He actually is pulling it apart this year to redo the interior and paint (color change, not from issues). Again, no frame off. He works on the car one day a week for a few hours... We both agreed he'd probably be dead by the time the car was finished if he did a frame off (half joking). 

The main point is  -- do whatever you feel comfortable with. Personally I'm not losing any sleep at night by not pulling my body off my frame, small wire brushes and paint brushes worked just fine for me in my situation.  

Originally posted by Eliteman76 Eliteman76 wrote:

Paul...
Take one project at a time. DO NOT view as an overall mountain of crap to do. You will never get things done. Look at my car. I've got 10 years into it, and still not done, because I got bogged down alot. Time. Money...and looking at the car going "Good Lord I have a mountain of crap to fix!"
 

Have you met me? Surely you realize I'm a glass half empty person. LOL



Edited by Psquare75 - 23-March-2011 at 5:48AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eliteman76 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-March-2011 at 6:11PM
half empty? NAH!

Just a guy with some strange obsession to 70's Fords!
Ah, hell, that's the entire group here...
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