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I need more from my 351C |
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mdeurloo
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Joined: 11-September-2024 Location: 03042 Status: Offline Points: 3 |
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Topic: I need more from my 351CPosted: 26-September-2024 at 7:37AM |
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Hi, I recently picked up a 73 GTS fastback. It has a 351C 2v which has been changed to a four barrel. I have a new Edelbrock AVS on it (625cfm). Motor is all stock except for manifold switch except it was upgraded to electronic ignition. Stock FMX trans. But it just doesn't want to go!! It won't even spin the tires in the rain!! What are the best ways to get more from this awesome motor? I'm thinking a cam with CJ specs (270/290 .481/.490 lift) and headers. My mechanic says better gears in the rear(stock are 2.73)will help but I'd rather not go that route first. And I read that the 351C likes bigger carbs, so maybe a Holley 750? What does anyone recommend? thanx!!
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Mike
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Inkara1
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Joined: 17-November-2021 Location: Ridgecrest, CA Status: Offline Points: 515 |
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Posted: 26-September-2024 at 8:48AM |
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You still have single exhaust? Converting to dual exhaust, even with the stock exhaust manifold, is an easy way to gain a few horses, since you'd be giving the extra air from the 4V intake a place to go.
I'm not sure how close in physical size the FMX is to the C4 or C6. All the long-tube headers I see for sale for the 2V heads are for C4 transmission only. Mine has 2V heads but a C6 trans. I can get headers for C6 but only for 4V heads. (You can make a stock 4V intake work with 2V heads, but the exhaust ports are too different for 4V and 2V to be able to interchange.) I looked at shorty headers, but it seems to be too little power gain for the cost, so I just found new manifolds on eBay to replace my cracked ones. For your carb, if you plan on revving it well past 5,000 RPM, even the 351C 2V can make use of more air than a 351W or any GM 350 engine, so the 750 carb could benefit you then. Mine never goes past 4,500 RPM, so I have a 600 carb on it and that's good enough.
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1972 Gran Torino station wagon, light blue, 351C 2V, prior owner upgraded to 4V (2V heads), originally had a C4 but prior owner changed to C6 for some reason.
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Booyah45828
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Joined: 28-February-2022 Location: Ohio Status: Offline Points: 163 |
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Posted: 26-September-2024 at 8:58AM |
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Stock cam is the reason why it's a pooch. That and the exhaust manifolds.
I'm not sure how stock you have this, but I recommend replacing the OE valves with new single groove locks and swapping the oe rod nuts to arp nuts at a minimum. After that, you can go from mild to wild based on your budget and how rowdy you want the car. You never mentioned which intake you have, but some are definitely better then others. I'm not going to dog on the CJ cam. It was fine 50 years ago. But there's more to a camshaft then lift and duration, and thanks to technology there are much better options available. On new builds I like roller cams so that you don't have to deal with the heartache of wiping a lobe. Brent Lykins ran a 351c based forum for over a decade after he(and a number of other racers) were chased away from the clevelands forever group. Unfortunately his forum has since been shuttered and the replacement(along with the old posts) hasn't been fired up yet. Not sure if you're wanting something off the shelf or open to the idea of a custom cam, but I'm sure Brent would be more then willing to spec you something and sell it to you. That's the way I would go.
If you're wanting to keep this more budget oriented, pick a shelf cam that you can afford that isn't real wild on duration and overlap, and then use a timing set that doesn't have the cam retarded like the factory did. |
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Rockatansky
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Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6398 |
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Posted: 26-September-2024 at 10:10AM |
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what's the budget? and how much tear-down are you willing to do? 1st things first, the stock valves in the heads need to be binned ASAP and replaced with decent quality 1 piece stainless / single groove units. matching retainers, valve locks and springs to suit a new cam also. the valve guides will be worn and need servicing with bronze liners, then a 3 angle valve job performed. www.alexsparts.com is a great source for upgraded valvetrain parts, as is www.tmeyerinc.com but finding what you need in stock can be hit / miss. Get What You Can When You Can! springs, retainers, locks, 30 day lead time 2V valves, after confirming size as far as the cam & rear gears, they need to compliment each other as well as the torque converter in the transmission. the 'biggest' cam i'll recommend for a stock converter is something like the Comp Cams 268H. it'll even work well with the 2.73 gears. unfortunately getting a properly ground hydro-flat tappet cam and properly machined set of hydro-flat lifters these days is nothing short of a miracle. if you're not ready to $tep up and go roller, and i wouldn't blame you, i'd be prepared to send off any set of new lifters to be resurfaced by an outfit like https://egge.com/lifter-resurfacing/. going roller is no guarantee of a satisfying experience, hyd-roller lifters have been a roll of the dice for about the same time as hydro-flats. choice of engine oil is also critical when using hyd-roller lifters, Chris Straub of www.straubtechnologies.com has shared that the cSt (centistoke) of the engine oil needs to be 15 or less for hyd-rollers. he actualy just released a youtube about it for a mild hyd-roller the Ford OEM roller lifters are an option but again, finding quality lifters is a crap shoot. the OEM system also requires drilling 2 holes in the valley surface of the block to mount the lifter retaining 'spider' so this should be done with the engine completely torn down so the drill & tap chips can be cleaned out all 1973 351C's suffer 2 major drawbacks regarding their power output capability, retarded camshaft timing and low static compression ratio (SCR). both of these combined conspire to create a Dynamic Compression Ratio (DCR) that's in the toilet. DCR = cylinder pressure = thermal efficiency. if the engine doesn't make squeeze in the combustion chamber, it doesn't make power. as a general rule of thumb, 'big' cams close the intake valve later in relation to the position of the piston in the cylinder during the compression stroke and therefor generate less DCR than 'small' cams. big cams rely on high SCR's to make power. your 1973 351C came new with dish pistons and a barely 8:1 SCR. and a severely retarded camshaft aggravated by the new for 1973 crankshaft timing gear. off the top of my head, the 1973 8cc dished pistons with the Comp 268H cam will make about 6.5:1 DCR. that's a little on the soft side but will run with no tuning issues on regular gas. for reference, consensus is that about 8:1 DCR is max for pump premium. swapping to 1970-72 style flat top pistons only bumps the DCR to 6.7:1. hard to justify the expense unless you need to have the cylinders refinished anyway, which is probably the case if it's original stock bore after all these years? while you're digesting all that, and all this, do you have a timing light, dwell meter and cylinder psi gauge? the 1st thing i would do is bump the ignition timing to 18* btdc and see if that makes a difference. 1973 came with a points distributor, out of spec points will kill performance, a dwell meter is needed to ensure correct setting. a feeler gauge can get the engine running but a dwell meter tells you exactly. and i wonder what the motor is making for squeeze, 4 hits on the gauge with the carb stuck open and coil wire grounded or spark plugs removed |
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72 GT Ute
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72 RS 351
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Joined: 04-September-2014 Location: Knoxville TN Status: Online Points: 3445 |
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Posted: 26-September-2024 at 11:06AM |
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The 73 up Ford engines had many deficiencies that conspired to kill overall power, as described fairly well above. The problems are many, and they all cost quite a bit now in this new inflation economy. Nobody can get an engine built for under $1k any more, and any really good upgrades add big costs to any build. So you have to make decisions often about what you can budget in the present, and what you might be able to pay later on, after a year, or five more. I'd say always keep ahead of all maintenance items, keep everything up to date, fluids, filters, rubber hoses etc. That way you will reduce unexpected costs that do pop up with any older vehicle. I'd suggest that engine needs more compression, and getting that is not cheap. If the engine is old but sound, you may do okay to live with the short block and upgrade other things outside of that. Australian Cleveland heads used to be excellent to gain compression(they are 2V ports with closed chambers), but now they are very scarce. The 351C can run well up to 5000 rpm like any SBF, but the advantage of a Cleveland was always the much bigger head ports than all other small blocks. But that is only achieved if the owner upgrades the valvetrain to make use of the higher rpm(such as 6k or 6500+), and then the whole engine has to come apart to upgrade the oiling system. Almost nobody does that anymore because of the rarity of these Cleveland heads, and few know how to have that done. So most Cleveland engines are either mild builds, or mediocre(not enough rpm, they shift too low(5k for example)). I'd do as others above suggested, and only get serious if you will pay to take it all apart, and move up to roller cam/lifters, higher compression(heads and pistons), plus the oiling mods. I am planning that for one of my 351C-4V engines, a refresh only that with just roller cam etc, RPM Air Gap, headers, will end up being over $3000.
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Don
73 Ranchero "Sport 72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000 rpm 351 stroker 73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V &4R70W for sale later. 92 Lincoln Mark VII SE GTC, OBDII 347/4R70W |
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Rockatansky
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Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6398 |
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Posted: 27-September-2024 at 7:13AM |
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Tim Meyer just announced valves available, like i said above Get What You Can When You Can! comments on comments, FWIW ... i've 'upgraded' from single exhaust to dual and lost significant low end response & drivability. Mike you didn't say what the status is of your exhaust system? large diameter tubing shines when the engine makes big power at higher rpm, small diameter tubing shines every where else and sometimes with no downside at all. diameter goes for both header primary tubes, collectors and exhaust pipes. bigger isn't always better, hardly ever is, usually Less Is More same goes for carbs, your 625 AVS is a good match to your 2.73 rear gear. that gear will not allow any benefit of a big Holley. it'll use more fuel, make some noise and suck more than it does now. when the car runs so bad-azz that the carb is holding it back, you'll know it. Brent didn't get chased away from the forum, wth would a forum owner chase away such a knowledgeable guy? there were behavioral issues that continued after many efforts to quell them, i honestly don't recall ATM (IHDRATM?) if Brent was banned or left on his own but but in either case it wasn't ever what the forum owner wanted. and some others chose to follow Brent to several other forums all of which no longer exist. that worked out pretty well, nope. enter fb, the forum never recovered but new members are still joining regularly. the forum connected fb page Clevelands Forever has been going strong from it's inception. Breaking News? the forum has a new owner. i don't know what the relationship is between Brent and the new owner, will Brent be back? IDK. that Brent would start yet another new forum of his own is IMO a bit laughable as the other one whittled it itself down to such a small clutch before going dark. my feelings aside, i have referred Brent some customers whether he's aware or not. enough on that sob so whattaya thinkin Mike? |
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72 GT Ute
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Booyah45828
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Joined: 28-February-2022 Location: Ohio Status: Offline Points: 163 |
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Posted: 27-September-2024 at 8:25AM |
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Yes, there were behavior issues, if that's what you want to call them. George and Brent were arguing about camshafts and brent didn't drop it after he was told to, and was banned for it. George is great for history on the cleveland, but has very little real world experience building engines. He's a great orator and excellent at creating great reading posts. But if it involved port stuffers, modern cams, or anything that george didn't see acceptable, he'd get touchy and snarky about it. George even had a spat between him and Tim Meyer, and Tim is the type of guy that would say sh*t with a mouth full of it.
It was George's "intelligent" design of the 351c 4v head theory that prompted my statement on there being better options then the CJ cam, as it was a cam argument(I think, it's been a minute) that split the forums. According to Brent, and take this for what it's worth, Todd told him that he doesn't care if the forum turns into just him and George's echo chamber, it's his forum and that's how he want's it. Brent wasn't the only one told to leave. Randy Malik, Randy Gillis, Barry Rabotnik, Dave Mclain, Dan Jones, Rob Hetzler, and a variety of others posted on there at one time and then were either turned off by the place or chased away. I started on the old net54 forum, was on both when Brent started his, then left when Todd switched from net54 to tapatalk. I had frequent issues logging into tapatalk(probably my fault by refusing to let internet explorer go), so I quit stopping by. I read on FB that Tim bought it. Tim is a good guy. AFAIK it was him and Steve Kenzle that were still regulars on the old forum and both are smart and good guys. I like forums and wish Tim well with it. I'm a subscriber of his on youtube. Also, Brent didn't start a 2nd forum, he let the 1st one go dark and Chris Kelly was going to take it over. It's at the351cforum.net now, and Chris is supposed to migrate all of the old posts over, but it's been quiet for over a year now. FYI Todd cleaned up a lot of the spat between George and Brent, and in the process made the ugliness look a lot more one-sided then it really was. Neither was innocent IMO and the favoritism shown wasn't fair.
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