|
Is there any reason not to swap FMX for AOD? |
Post Reply 
|
| Author | |
Dino 
Member 
Joined: 08-September-2023 Location: Jackson Mi Status: Offline Points: 150 |
 Post Options
 Thanks(0)
 Quote Reply
 Topic: Is there any reason not to swap FMX for AOD?Posted: 19-September-2023 at 11:50AM |
|
76 Gran Torino with 351w and FMX. Street driven car. Never raced. Seems to me I would basically be adding a 4th gear. Any downside at all?
|
|
 |
|
|
72FordGTS
Admin Group 
GTS.org Admin Joined: 06-September-2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Status: Offline Points: 6780 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 19-September-2023 at 12:06PM |
|
No downsides at all, other than cost. Keeping the FMX costs you nothing. Even if your engine is stock, personally I'd do some upgrades to the AOD. They are not overly strong in stock form, and they have the odd dual input shaft mechanical lock-up on the torque converter. Broader Transmission does AOD builds, but they aren't cheap and probably overkill for your application. He's a good guy to deal with, I bought my C6 parts from him and he's building me a custom converter now. Edited by 72FordGTS - 19-September-2023 at 12:15PM |
|
|
Vince
1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car GTS.org Admin |
|
|
|
|
Dino
Member
Joined: 08-September-2023 Location: Jackson Mi Status: Offline Points: 150 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 19-September-2023 at 12:10PM |
|
That's funny! I'm on that site now! The AOD would allow me to change out the stock 2.75 gears and get a more fun car around town, while still being able to cruise on the freeway.
|
|
|
|
|
Dino
Member
Joined: 08-September-2023 Location: Jackson Mi Status: Offline Points: 150 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 19-September-2023 at 12:23PM |
|
I can pick up an AOD from a 1993 F150 for $400. Everything's there. Decent deal?
|
|
|
|
|
72 RS 351
Senior Member 
Joined: 04-September-2014 Location: Knoxville TN Status: Offline Points: 3445 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 20-September-2023 at 6:31AM |
|
All of the transmissions discussed are very old and usually high mileage. An AOD is fairly fragile and upgrading internal parts usually adds a few hundred dollars, plus that swapping of parts requires special builder skills to restore front to rear clearances. I think combined with the upgrade costs and need for high quality build(not for amateur builder or inexperienced shop), the two negatives of the AOD make me avoid that and go to the 4R70W. The AOD 100% lock up in 3rd and 4th, no TC multiplication in 1st or 2nd, and poor shift point control(very difficult to adjust accurately), it's all bad, the 4R70W has none of those problems. The 4R70W you can buy a 1998+ unit, best condition you can find, for similar cost as an AOD and it's way more common now. That 4R70W almost any decent shop can rebuild in stock form(not swapping any major hard parts), and it costs the same to build as the AOD. The extra cost for that is the stand alone controller, the Quick Shift 4 is just over $700 complete with new wiring and good instructions. You can get many TC's for the 4R, from plain remanufactured to high stall, same prices as an AOD but easier to select with more sources. The AOD and 4R70W have the shift cable to deal with, you have to be very careful to find the proper shift lever for the shifter type(floor or column), plus the shift bracket. The trans mount and driveshaft should be minor trouble. There are many upgrade parts for all of those choices, the higher end stuff costs a lot more for both the AOD or 4R70W. I have those to build a couple of 4R70W's, and might end up moving up to the 6R80 in my Lincoln and less likely my Ranchero.
Edited by 72 RS 351 - 21-September-2023 at 2:41AM |
|
|
Don
73 Ranchero "Sport 72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000 rpm 351 stroker 73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V &4R70W for sale later. 92 Lincoln Mark VII SE GTC, OBDII 347/4R70W |
|
|
|
|
Dino
Member
Joined: 08-September-2023 Location: Jackson Mi Status: Offline Points: 150 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 21-September-2023 at 2:19AM |
|
Thanks for your input. I like the fact that I can swap out the FMX for an AOD without much fabrication, but if a 4R70W fits with little to no modification then I will definitely consider going that route. I'm assuming no point in considering the AODE? I have a column shifter and want to keep it. I will try to source a column selector from an early 80s Econoline van. Supposedly these fit on the Torino column and they have the correct shift pattern. I'm not sure how the cable works on the 4R70W but I'm sure someone has done this before. The controller is a bit pricey but if it gives me better shift point control, and keep the trans from burning up, then it is well worth it. I also may switch to EFI at some point so that would make things easier as well.
|
|
|
|
|
72 RS 351
Senior Member
Joined: 04-September-2014 Location: Knoxville TN Status: Offline Points: 3445 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 21-September-2023 at 2:37AM |
|
The shift cable and shift pattern is basically the same for the AOD/AODE/4R70W to swap a trans. The cable that will work for the AOD will work for the others also. There are two possible shift levers that came in the AOD/AODE/4R70W, the difference is the angle of it outside the trans. It's basically for the column shift versus floor. The AOD I test fitted into my first Ranchero had the wrong shift lever, and I swapped it out for the other type. The lever is bolted in, the pan and a large nut have to come off, and last a drift pin holds the lever in(pull that out, change lever, tap it back in). Many of the guts of any AODE or 4R70W will go into the AOD, those gain strength of the OD and the wide ratio of a 4R. The AOD is a close ratio trans, the 4R is wide ratio, the only ratio difference are the gear ratios of 1st and 2nd, 3rd/4th are not changed. I'm going to build a 4R70W for my 92 Lincoln, using the AODE planetary set(four parts that change 1st/2nd ratios, the planetary, ring gear, sun gear, and sun gear shell). People prefer the wide ratio, but for my Lincoln I don't want to be able to roast the tires; with a 347 the stock gearing will be best for me. A stock Mark VII LSC has an AOD and 3.27 gears, so I'm planning to keep that set of gear ratios, the AOD and AODE have the identical ratios. The AOD 1st gear is the same as the FMX(about 2.46:1), and the C6/C4. The 4R70W has a 2.84:1 1st gear. So plan the rear diff to work with those, with an OD of .70:1, a 3.5:1 or 3.7:1 is a great street ratio. A bigger engine will spin the tires easier, so nudge the diff/ratio some based on that.
|
|
|
Don
73 Ranchero "Sport 72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000 rpm 351 stroker 73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V &4R70W for sale later. 92 Lincoln Mark VII SE GTC, OBDII 347/4R70W |
|
|
|
|
72 RS 351
Senior Member
Joined: 04-September-2014 Location: Knoxville TN Status: Offline Points: 3445 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 21-September-2023 at 2:48AM |
|
If you hunt a 4R70W, try to get a 2003 or 2004 Mustang V6 unit. Those have the last upgrades of the 4R, including the Jerry's Mod built into them, the mechanical diode(1998+ had that), and they should all still have the rear speed sensor(and gear). You have to have that rear speed output, the output shaft has splines for a speedometer gear, so the original speedometer cable will connect there. The 4R70W came in two trans cases, for the SBF and for the modular V8's. The SBF version has two bolt holes for the starter, the later modular version uses a three bolt starter. So they are very easy to tell apart, count the start bolt holes. The 5.0/4.2/3.8 Fords used two bolt starters, so most sources list the parts with the displacement size. The SN95 Mustangs(94-04) used the 3.8 V6, with the 4R70W, but near the end the 4.0 V6 began. That 4.0 is completely different, skip those.
|
|
|
Don
73 Ranchero "Sport 72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000 rpm 351 stroker 73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V &4R70W for sale later. 92 Lincoln Mark VII SE GTC, OBDII 347/4R70W |
|
|
|
|
Dino
Member
Joined: 08-September-2023 Location: Jackson Mi Status: Offline Points: 150 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 21-September-2023 at 3:14AM |
|
Looks like this one will work then. $200 and local. No torque converter with this one. Any recommendations?
|
|
|
|
|
Dino
Member
Joined: 08-September-2023 Location: Jackson Mi Status: Offline Points: 150 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 21-September-2023 at 3:21AM |
|
As far as gears go, I really don't know which would be better. Everything I read about the AOD said to get the wide band. I'm not trying to spin the tires, I just want some get up and go when merging into traffic. Right now I have to give it a lot of throttle. Of course I will be able to swap the 2.75 gears for something better so it should all work out.
|
|
|
|
|
72 RS 351
Senior Member
Joined: 04-September-2014 Location: Knoxville TN Status: Offline Points: 3445 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 21-September-2023 at 3:55AM |
That's an awesome get if it's just $200 and has only 90k miles. You want one that's not been apart, decent mileage like that, and is the 98+ group, that 2004 might not need anything but a solid rebuild. Build parts are about $300 or so, and a reputable remanufactured torque converter made for that 2004 V6 Mustang could be a good match to your 351W torque range. I'd probably jump at that, I paid $350 shipped for a similar 2003 version about five years ago. With that if it is that decent mileage, all I'd add is a few Sonnax parts specifically for the 4R70W valve body. They cost a good bit, $150ish, I haven't priced them all, they came out with a $75 upgrade item a while back(only available itself, the other parts can be had in one kit). Note that many trans shops won't deal with aftermarket small items like the Sonnax parts. But those parts are as important as anything to the reliability of the trans short and long term. So I'd find a shop that will work with those, and bench build it for you. A shop rebuild is $3k and more because they R&R the trans, most of the cost is labor for that, not the trans rebuild. So a bench build might/should not be a lot more than $500 labor. With that solid used 4R70W, you might get away with a $2500 total cost for the trans swap. Change the 9" gears after the trans swap, you need to drive it first. That will give you a much better idea of what gear would be best. I'd bet on 3.5:1, but either 3.25 or 3.7 could be good too.
Edited by 72 RS 351 - 21-September-2023 at 5:43AM |
|
|
Don
73 Ranchero "Sport 72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000 rpm 351 stroker 73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V &4R70W for sale later. 92 Lincoln Mark VII SE GTC, OBDII 347/4R70W |
|
|
|
|
Dino
Member
Joined: 08-September-2023 Location: Jackson Mi Status: Offline Points: 150 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 21-September-2023 at 4:02AM |
|
Thanks for all the help, I really appreciate it! Would it be worth getting a trac-lok if I don't plan on spinning the tires?
|
|
|
|
|
Rockatansky
Senior Member
Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6398 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 21-September-2023 at 7:32AM |
|
come install time you may find that you need to do some tinkering with the radius arc of the transmission shift arm. it seems most Ford transmissions use a different radius arc on that linkage arm, it has to match the throw travel of the shifter or the ranges will not line up / match at the transmission. i'd measure the radius (distance from the center of the linkage arm shaft to the center of the pivot ball) or whatever type of connection the linkage uses at the arm and take a pic / write that down & save it so you can match the new linkage arm to the new. you may also need to create a new cable bracket or linkage rod, not insurmountable but important for a successful transmission swap
|
|
|
72 GT Ute
|
|
|
|
|
Dino
Member
Joined: 08-September-2023 Location: Jackson Mi Status: Offline Points: 150 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 29-September-2023 at 2:28PM |
|
The seller of the $200 trans is not seeing my messages. I can pick this up for $100. 2003 Mustang with 150,000 miles.   |
|
|
|
|
72FordGTS
Admin Group
GTS.org Admin Joined: 06-September-2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Status: Offline Points: 6780 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 04-October-2023 at 1:49AM |
|
Don (72 RS 351) probably knows more about if that is a good core or not. However, at the very least, make sure the bolt pattern is for a SBF (Mustang 3.8L V6 will be the same but not the 4.6L V8).
|
|
|
Vince
1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car GTS.org Admin |
|
|
|
|
72 RS 351
Senior Member
Joined: 04-September-2014 Location: Knoxville TN Status: Offline Points: 3445 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 04-October-2023 at 2:20AM |
|
That 03 Mustang 4R can be a decent choice too, the 150k is not ideal. I just prefer something with under 100k to build, the case does wear slightly at the EPC solenoid from high mileage. So if you can feel that it's been well cared for, that should work fine. The modular engines all used a three bolt starter, all SBF's used the two bolt starter. The V6's came in both, the 3.8 and 4.2 are all supposed to be the two bolt starter, the 3.6 I think is the next V6 that had the three bolt starter. So it's very simple to look at the starter mounting, and count the holes. Unrelated, but about the bell housing; I discovered on Youtube long ago how people have adapted the later V8 modular transmissions to the SBF's. That's individuals doing it without the high dollar($700 to $1400) spacer kits. They were making a thicker separator plate of 1/4" or 3/8" steel, and welding onto it, two nuts to mount the starter. Plus cutting on the trans to make room for the starter, I got the idea; I'll use a 6R80 behind my SBF in my Explorer, by cutting off one block hole(bell housing threads), the one next to the starter. Doing that, the SBF will bolt onto any 4R70W or V8 6R80(different ones also came behind V6's and 4cylinders with a round bell housing pattern). Here's the picture someone from Youtube sent me, which confirmed my idea. He and others space the trans back and use the SBF two bolt starter, but they have to also space the torque converter back. I didn't like the idea of small 1/2" spacers(or 1/4" or 3/8" either) on each TC stud/nut. So my thought was, do I really have to have all six bell housing bolts? I'll do without one, cut the block slightly, thread the dowel holes, and use just five bolts. Below you can see where the modular V8 starter location overlaps the SBF top bolt hole. With that cut off, then you can use the stock modular separator plate, three bolt starter, and the TC. Cast iron is hard to cut, and thread, so it will be tricky.  Edited by 72 RS 351 - 04-October-2023 at 2:26AM |
|
|
Don
73 Ranchero "Sport 72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000 rpm 351 stroker 73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V &4R70W for sale later. 92 Lincoln Mark VII SE GTC, OBDII 347/4R70W |
|
|
|
|
Dino
Member
Joined: 08-September-2023 Location: Jackson Mi Status: Offline Points: 150 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 12-October-2023 at 7:36AM |
|
Thanks for the info! I didn't get the trans. I'll wait until a lower mileage unit comes along.
|
|
|
|
|
72 RS 351
Senior Member
Joined: 04-September-2014 Location: Knoxville TN Status: Offline Points: 3445 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 12-October-2023 at 8:27AM |
|
Keep an eye out for a 2003/04 Mustang V6 with decent mileage, those are a best bet to find unmolested. Then like any used car, it's a crap shoot for whether it was well taken care of. My latest 98 Explorer finally has a trans issue, it began two weeks ago. It has 246k miles now, I'm betting that the main solenoid is old and tired. It shifts okay with light to mild throttle. But on my route I almost always push 1/2 to 3/4 throttle, which now will make the shift feel like it's engaging 3rd but not letting go of 2nd. It's a shudder and/or rpm not dropping, letting off the gas pedal stops it. So I've been driving easy(for me) taking off from my hundreds of mailboxes each day. It's no big deal most of the time, but I have two hwy roads with 45-55mph limits, I need to merge into traffic a lot. I plan to R&R the three solenoids, do the various VB Sonnax parts, and maybe the accumulators if I find them in my garage.
|
|
|
Don
73 Ranchero "Sport 72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000 rpm 351 stroker 73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V &4R70W for sale later. 92 Lincoln Mark VII SE GTC, OBDII 347/4R70W |
|
|
|
|
Dino
Member
Joined: 08-September-2023 Location: Jackson Mi Status: Offline Points: 150 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 15-October-2023 at 4:27PM |
|
Is one from a 2002 V6 Mustang ok as well? 90K for $150.
|
|
|
|
|
72 RS 351
Senior Member
Joined: 04-September-2014 Location: Knoxville TN Status: Offline Points: 3445 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 16-October-2023 at 4:37AM |
Get it, that's also a great deal. The mileage is very good, and the Jerry's Mod upgrade is easy to do yourself. I'm not familiar with all years and models, like an AOD you want to be sure to check all the internal hard parts, and count them(clutch sets were always less in plain AOD cars, and sometimes early on in plain 4R70W cars). So don't worry if it happens to not have the best available OEM forward drum or direct drum etc. Every one of those is easy to change, and fairly easy to buy. I have somewhere two used 4R70W sets of guts, most of the guts, I bought from eBay that were supposed to be AODE guts. I was after the obsolete sun gear shells, and the planetary etc, to change the ratio of two of my 4R projects. I had to message the seller and find a solution. The shipping was going to be too high to ship back(they had a cheap commercial shipping for outgoing but not returns). So I ended up accepting a refund of all but $40 each, figuring I may need the parts. I haven't needed them, but I have so much of a mess in my garage, finding stuff is bad. Long story short, you can find any needed parts, except odd items like an AODE sun gear shell. If that used 4R70W looks fairly clean inside, clean fluid, be happy and it should be all you need for a mild engine project.
|
|
|
Don
73 Ranchero "Sport 72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000 rpm 351 stroker 73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V &4R70W for sale later. 92 Lincoln Mark VII SE GTC, OBDII 347/4R70W |
|
|
|
|
Dino
Member
Joined: 08-September-2023 Location: Jackson Mi Status: Offline Points: 150 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 16-October-2023 at 1:43PM |
|
I picked up the transmission tonight. It's in very good shape, and the fluid is clean. The wiring harness is still attached as well. I have a lead on a 3.70 ring and pinion for $75 as well. I'll have to YouTube how to install them and set them up. I'll get the Quick 4 and figure out what else I need. Thanks for all your help! |
|
|
|
|
72 RS 351
Senior Member
Joined: 04-September-2014 Location: Knoxville TN Status: Offline Points: 3445 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 17-October-2023 at 6:46AM |
|
Very good. I'm sure you will love the end result, the hard parts will be working out the shifter cable and bracket, driveshaft, and the wiring of the Quick Shift 4.
|
|
|
Don
73 Ranchero "Sport 72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000 rpm 351 stroker 73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V &4R70W for sale later. 92 Lincoln Mark VII SE GTC, OBDII 347/4R70W |
|
|
|
|
Dino
Member
Joined: 08-September-2023 Location: Jackson Mi Status: Offline Points: 150 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 17-October-2023 at 10:42AM |
|
I hope to find an aluminum driveshaft that fits. I didn't think about the column shifter. I'll have to look into that. I'm wondering if the 3.70 gear with a 28" tire is the way to go. I want as much off the line improvement I can while maintaining good freeway manners.
|
|
|
|
|
72 RS 351
Senior Member
Joined: 04-September-2014 Location: Knoxville TN Status: Offline Points: 3445 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 17-October-2023 at 12:40PM |
|
The 3.70 gears might be great for you, I'm considering 3.50's also and I have 3.70's in my extra 73 now. I like my three 1998 Explorer 302 AWD SUV's to compare with. They all have 3.73:1 gears, the 4R70W, and the fairly strong 302 with AWD(with 29" tires). I can't spin the tires with the AWD, but a 2WD version can. The highway rpm's are about 2000 at 60mph, a good compromise of fuel economy etc. The 351's will have more torque than a 302. I think the 3.70 gears will make it easy to spin the tires with the 4R70W(2.84:1 1st gear). I won't change my 3.70 rear gear out until I have installed a 4R70W and freshened up the 351. That might be more than a year from now, given how slow I've been.
|
|
|
Don
73 Ranchero "Sport 72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000 rpm 351 stroker 73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V &4R70W for sale later. 92 Lincoln Mark VII SE GTC, OBDII 347/4R70W |
|
|
|
|
Post Reply
|
|
| Tweet |
| Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |
Topic Options
Dino wrote: