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FMX to 4R70W |
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peter.jenerette
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Joined: 08-February-2023 Location: Nevada, TX Status: Offline Points: 1054 |
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Topic: FMX to 4R70WPosted: 18-July-2024 at 3:02AM |
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As some of you know, I was going to convert my 72 351C 2V to a 4 speed top-loader and went through the effort to rebuild the RUG top loader and gather ALL the parts required to make the swap. After the car came home my wife inquired on her ability to drive it with the 4 speed and manual brakes on a bench seat. This made me rethink this. (Note, I am building a driver that will never run down a track or participate in any street racing. Got a 97 in a 60 ticket
I am now looking into the 4R70W swap and have come to the following. 1. Transmission: 99-03 4R70W from a 3.8 Mustang or a 4.2 F150. 2. Controller: Quick 2 or Quick 4 3. Linkage: Lokar column linkage. 4. Driveshaft: Modify existing or obtain another that might fit. Based on everything I have read, and been told, this is a pretty straight forward swap, but have the following open questions: 1. TPS (throttle position sensor) - what to use when staying with an original Motorcraft 2150 carb? 2. Exhaust - I will be using factory style duals with the H-Pipe. Any mods required? 3. [Edit added this question] - Thoughts on keeping the 2.75 open original diff. Thanks for any info! (Searching the webs i can find info on this swap for mustangs and f150s. But none talk about the actual TPS, unless it was built into the aftermarket EFI)
Edited by peter.jenerette - 18-July-2024 at 3:30AM |
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Pete Jenerette
1972 Gran Torino (H-Code - 4R70W) 2022 F250 XLT 7.3 2003 Thunderbird |
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Booyah45828
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Joined: 28-February-2022 Location: Ohio Status: Offline Points: 163 |
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Posted: 18-July-2024 at 4:39AM |
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I'm looking at doing the same. 1. usshift recommends 98 or later, I've read elsewhere that you want 01 and later as it can handle 500hp with only the controller. After 02 though it's electric speedo only, not a huge issue, as there are speedometer converters, but it's one more thing to deal with. And yes, only the 3.8 or 4.2 units will have a small block bellhousing pattern. 2. I'll probably go with the quick 2, as the additional options(and cost) I don't think I'll need or use, and I don't think I need performance tuning or will be racing this. USshift has this video here for more details on it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vucbleq-pfE 3. No comment, I'm floor shift. lokar is a good source for cables, if I can't get the stock pieces to work, I'll go with something aftermarket. 4. Being that my car was originally c4, I'll have to either get an aod tailhousing or the 4r70 yoke and use a hybrid u joint. I've read that the stock driveshaft length might be okay, or need to be an inch shorter, depending on which tailhousing I use. I'm not worried, as I've got a driveline shop an hour from me that builds and balances custom driveshafts and a whole bunch of other parts that I'll use if I have to. I've used them before and they're really sharp when it comes to that stuff. 1. I'm surprised you're staying 2bbl. USShift also has a host of tps sensor kits, I'm sure they have one that will work on the 2150. There were also 2150's from the factory that had a tps mounted to them in the 80's IIRC. The quickshift 2 is looking for a analog tps signal and you calibrate the quickshift controller to your tps, so little if any mechanical adjustment would be required. If I were you, I'd likely look for the stock piece from ford, as it's probably cheaper. 2. What kit are you using? If the exhaust you have is able to house a c6, the 4r70w will fit fine. 3. I would get rid of the 2.75. That ratio combined with the OD in the trans will put your engine rpm range in the 1500 area. That's fine for a diesel but I don't think you'd want that with a 351. I was looking at 4.11's or 4.30's, but was told to stick with 3.70 or so. I'll likely go with something in that range that is good/cheap/nearby. Don on here (72 rs 351) has been a guidance to me. Hopefully he chimes in on this.
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peter.jenerette
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Joined: 08-February-2023 Location: Nevada, TX Status: Offline Points: 1054 |
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Posted: 18-July-2024 at 5:09AM |
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Staying with the 2V was just a natural choice given the desired end state. Even keeping an FMX was on the table. I sold off my FMX when I made the decision to go to the 4 speed, now I am wishing I didn't.
If I come across a good FMX before I acquire all the stuff for the 4R70W, I will just go with the FMX. I don't see taking this on many road trips where milage and RPM is going to be a concern. I even posted all my 4 speed parts in the Classifieds offering to trade for an above average FMX. As the FMX has proven to be tough to come by (within budget); and some pushes by others on my project thread; i decided to start investigating this. Seems the 4R70W is fairly easy to come by, and the information is out there, I put it on the table and began researching. Your comment on the differential raises an interesting point, and pushes me back towards the FMX. My issue is budget, its not that I cannot spend it, I would rather not. (Promised wife I would keep the car under 20K after all was said and done, I still have plenty of room, but there are still a few unknowns in the build.) I know, i am being cheap, but its the get it going, and upgrade later type of build. |
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Pete Jenerette
1972 Gran Torino (H-Code - 4R70W) 2022 F250 XLT 7.3 2003 Thunderbird |
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72 RS 351
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Joined: 04-September-2014 Location: Knoxville TN Status: Offline Points: 3445 |
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Posted: 18-July-2024 at 2:44PM |
That's a near complete list of possible parts and issues. The
4R70W got the last major upgrade in the 1998 model, the mechanical
diode. But that you can buy separately if needed, and the same for
almost any other components. It's a very well supported trans, though it
is waning in availability now that the last were made in 2004. But any
SBF bell housing model from 1998 to 2004 will work fine. The biggest key
is the past care, mileage, and what prior issues it may have had.
That's why a lower mileage unit is worth much more, if possible aim for
one you can trust has not had any big issues. The
trans cable is an interesting issue, I'm not sure how that will connect
to the existing car shifter, column or floor. The trans side is easy if
the 4R cables are used. There's only one
controller to buy, aside from the built in high dollar EFI systems from
Pro M and Holley. From what I read, the Quick Shift 4 is well designed,
easy to wire up, and user friendly to tune yourself. I need one of those
for both of my Ranchero's, I'll be using OEM computers for my Mark VII
and Explorers, which are cheaper that the Holley EFI in the end. Any
of the early electric speedometer cars will use the needed VSS, speed
sensor. Among the earliest will be a Ford that had a mechanical cable,
which went into the VSS at the trans. There is a need because of that
for a model with the sensor back there, which ended in the 2000
range(earlier for some car models, later for others). That just means
you will need an output shaft that has the speedometer splines in it.
That can be had separately too of course. I have a 97 Explorer 2WD 4R
that I plan to use for those odd items, the output shaft and rear
housing(2WD). You can use a 4WD trans but the rear output shaft and
housing would have to be swapped of course. Any
automatic needs a good cooler, the best are those from Super Duty Ford
trucks, which came in various shapes and sizes. I like the type which
are fairly narrow, and longer, to run side to side near the bottom of
the radiator. Most non heavy duty Fords came with a cooler that's about
half the volume it should be, same for all aftermarket coolers. That's
why the Super Duty coolers are better, they are normally double a
typical sizes, or more. More is better always for trans cooling. The 4R70W's that will bolt easily to the SBF all have two starter bolts, that's the easy visual test. After 1998 the only note worthy change was to the planetary, the big rivets became a kind of spot weld, but that only affect power way higher than a typical SBF. Try to find a TPS that adapts to the carb you have, avoid Lokar cables unless you cannot get an OEM cable to work well. The OEM cables are more reliable at the end connections.
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Don
73 Ranchero "Sport 72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000 rpm 351 stroker 73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V &4R70W for sale later. 92 Lincoln Mark VII SE GTC, OBDII 347/4R70W |
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Rockatansky
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Joined: 30-July-2010 Location: On The Road Status: Offline Points: 6398 |
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Posted: 20-July-2024 at 7:51AM |
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from where you're at now it'd be easier to teach her to drive 3 pedals
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72 GT Ute
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peter.jenerette
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Joined: 08-February-2023 Location: Nevada, TX Status: Offline Points: 1054 |
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Posted: 20-July-2024 at 2:29PM |
Short lady; short legs; she can somewhat drive a stick (ive taught her previously) she just doesn't have the miles behind it to put her in something this large and cumbersome.
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Pete Jenerette
1972 Gran Torino (H-Code - 4R70W) 2022 F250 XLT 7.3 2003 Thunderbird |
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72 RS 351
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Joined: 04-September-2014 Location: Knoxville TN Status: Offline Points: 3445 |
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Posted: 21-July-2024 at 6:23AM |
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I understand that, these cars are very big by today's standards. When I drove mine in high school, they were still considered mid sized. Mine had manual steering, my parents didn't splurge for that. So my mom had to deal with that all the time, it was her car most of the time. My parents did get the bucket seats though, so they didn't have the problem with leg length. That was huge.
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Don
73 Ranchero "Sport 72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000 rpm 351 stroker 73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V &4R70W for sale later. 92 Lincoln Mark VII SE GTC, OBDII 347/4R70W |
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peter.jenerette
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Joined: 08-February-2023 Location: Nevada, TX Status: Offline Points: 1054 |
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Posted: 22-July-2024 at 3:06AM |
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Thanks for all the info!
After going through the details, and based on the information i have gathered, I decided to use the FMX from the parts car, and slowly acquire the parts to do the swap to a 4R70W. I will start with the parts that are pricey today, such as the controller, a universal TPS, and Lokar column shift adapter, as these will either become unobtainium or go up in price the longer i wait to do the swap, transmission will follow, then any other bits and pieces. I figure once i have the engine and trans back in, I can take measurements to verify what other alterations i need to make (Driveshaft, Exhaust, cross-member). |
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Pete Jenerette
1972 Gran Torino (H-Code - 4R70W) 2022 F250 XLT 7.3 2003 Thunderbird |
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72 RS 351
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Joined: 04-September-2014 Location: Knoxville TN Status: Offline Points: 3445 |
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Posted: 22-July-2024 at 6:14AM |
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That's a fair game plan. I'm way behind to begin my project, I have several fires to handle this upcoming year. Maybe I'll get to my first 4R70W swap in time to help with the details of the shifter and cable etc. I'd wait on the cable for now, I think I can make a connection to the stock column shifter with an OEM cable. I do have an old new Lokar cable for an AOD, long ago planning an AOD swap. That didn't happen, so now I have some odd Lokar kit I won't need(I bought two and installed one into a friend's Fox Mustang with a Holley carb). I ordered the pair thinking I'd get to my project soon enough, that was a mistake of course.
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Don
73 Ranchero "Sport 72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000 rpm 351 stroker 73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V &4R70W for sale later. 92 Lincoln Mark VII SE GTC, OBDII 347/4R70W |
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peter.jenerette
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Joined: 08-February-2023 Location: Nevada, TX Status: Offline Points: 1054 |
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Posted: 06-August-2025 at 8:26AM |
Reviewing old threads, found this. If FMX and column shifter (not sure on Floor), you can take a 2004 F150 4.2 shifter bracket, modify so it will retain your existing cable (welded on notched 1/2 washer), mount and then "tweak" (bend) it some to get a good alignment. Worked great for me.
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Pete Jenerette
1972 Gran Torino (H-Code - 4R70W) 2022 F250 XLT 7.3 2003 Thunderbird |
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