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Crank Seal Replacment

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    Posted: 03-May-2014 at 1:11PM
I am planning on doing my timing chain in the next week or two when I get the time. I have all the parts ready to go including a new crank seal for the front engine cover. The Ford service manual shows a special Ford tool to pull the seal out of the cover. It's a tool I don't have.

What's the best way to pull this seal and reinstall it without any fancy Ford tools? I am sure there must be an easier way?

Any tips or tricks for doing a timing set appreciated as well.
Vince

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-May-2014 at 1:37PM
Ford has a special tool for everything

if there's an exposed lip on the front side, a small chisel should get the party started. or you can try driving it straight out the front from the inside but I usually end up poking through the metal frame of the seal doing it that way

basically it's just gotta come out. the front cover is much thicker material than the seal so you'd have to TRY to hurt it

the last cover i played with had been through the wringer before I got it. the locator holes were ovaled and the cover was bent up pretty good. some quality time with a couple hammers, dollies, straightedge & the concrete floor did it some good



I didn't realize I had a bunch more pics that relate...

from the factory the cover is sealed where the bottom rail is attached, if that sealer fails or gets removed in the cleaning process the cover should leak in a very hard to detect way. I sealed that one with RTV from the inside to prevent engine from migrating between the cover & rail to outside the engine



quite a bit of corrosion too



mostly because I trim the seal rail so I can slip the cover back on with the oil pan in place, I make sure I do the 'inside smudge' with RTV in the corner from the inside. my policy is you can't make a seal from the outside



then I used some extra bolts to snug it up into place because I wasn't going to set the water pump right away



watch for RTV squeeze blobs. not an issue within reason but I've seen a golf ball sized blob that blocked the heater hose nipple in the intake. yeah, the 'house favorites' there were a couple of clowns, they got paid to fix their own BS on more than one occasion. blobs can bust out blind threaded holes(hydraulic lock) in a block too, Windsors are bad for that on the front cover



don't overlook the threads in the formed bulge for the bottom water pump bolt. you can grind it down flat & weld a nut on if the threads are shot, a lot easier to do when it's already apart!

also check for corrosion behind the water pump, the timing cover is also the water pump backing plate

Edited by Rockatansky - 03-May-2014 at 1:49PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72RogerGT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-May-2014 at 2:42PM
Make sure to install the harmonic balancer before installing the oil pan and verify that the spring from the seal didn't pop out. Otherwise it will just leak later.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-May-2014 at 9:13AM
Thanks to both for the advice and thanks Rockatansky for all the great photos.  So I guess I basically pound the old seal out, sounds easy enough.  I was just going to install the new one with a hammer and a large socker. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote spuninmo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-May-2014 at 2:36AM
There is a small stainless sleeve that goes on the nose of the balancer...it basically gives the balancer a fresh mating surface to the crank seal.  If the engine was run long enough to need a rebuild, this is a 5 dollar fix to a future problem, the balancers tend to wear  where the seal rubs and creates a groove that isnt always round or true.  The sleeve fixes that.  I believe your part will be Felpro 16213.  I learned about these the hard way....tore into My cleve after 200 miles to replace the seal and install one of these.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-May-2014 at 5:11AM
I have a timing chain gasket kit and it comes with the sleeve and the oil pan end seal. Thanks for the tip!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-May-2014 at 12:59PM
I was able to get the cover off and the new timing set installed. It looks like I can't get the front cover on without dropping the pan, according to the Ford manual. I misread it before I started and though to could reinstall the cover without touching the oil pan. Can I just loosen the pan or what's the best way to get this cover on?

The engine is still in the car so pulling the pan would not be a small job and I'd like to get the car on the back on the road soon.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dave302 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-May-2014 at 1:53PM

A friend of mine removed and replaced a timing set on a Ford 429 engine a few years ago. He did not have to remove the oil pan from the engine.

 
He just loosened all of the oil pan bolts in the front and back of the oil pan, he also loosened all of the of the oil pan bolts on both sides of the oil pan. To let the oil pan lower/drop as low as possible to install the timing cover (he did not remove any of the oil pan bolts that i know of), except for the two or three front bolts that connect to the bottom of the timing cover and oil pan, through the front oil pan bolt holes.
 
But this was on a ford 429 engine, so i am not sure if it will work on yours.
 
Below, is a thread about a different person who removed and installed a timing set on his ford 429 engine, and he did not have to remove the oil pan either.
 


Edited by dave302 - 09-May-2014 at 2:02PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72RogerGT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-May-2014 at 3:03PM
The timing chain cover has a lip that won't allow install without lowering the oil pan. I've seen some people actually grind the lip off and it allows install without messing with the oil pan.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-May-2014 at 1:12PM
I read about cutting the lip for the cover, but I am not really sure how it's done. I guess I will have to look more closely before I attempt that, unless someone here has advice on that.

If I can get away with just dropping the front of the pan, this might be the easiest option. I am just not sure if that will destroy the rest of the pan gasket. I can try to clean and seal it with RTV, but this is an original pan gasket that isn't leaking at the moment.

If anyone has done this job please feel free to offer input.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Bird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-May-2014 at 2:10PM
On a Brand "C" Tongue engine, it has the same kind of overlap/interference. usually you can get those to go by sucking it in with a couple longer nuts/bolts (fully threaded bolts with nuts on, spun all the way to the heads) put the cover in place and put the nuts/bolts maybe 2-3 holes up from the bottom. thread the bolts in and then tighten the nuts to press the cover into place. Install all the other bolts and then replace the nut/bolts with the right ones. You also have to do some fiddling with the ends of the pan gasket, Nothing big though.

When doing this, set the base/bottom of the cover in place, with the bottom timing cover seal in place in the cover - let the top hang forward and as you tighten, "help" it along with gentle pressure/tapping with your hand or a soft hammer.

I don't know if that will work for a cleveland, but I don't remember small fords (Windsors) having the same issue.


Edited by Big Bird - 10-May-2014 at 2:39PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dave302 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-May-2014 at 2:20PM
I do not have any information on how to cut the lip off of the cover, but i can give you some more information about other ways you can try to install the timing cover with the oil pan still installed in the car.
 
You can also try to use oil pan bolts that are much, much longer than the original oil pan bolts, to drop the oil pan even lower than it is now. Just remove the original oil pan bolts (one at a time), and replace them (one at a time) with longer bolts to lower the oil pan even more than it is now. I believe that the oil pan bolts are 5/16 inch "NC" (National Coarse) Thread size.
 
If you still can not get the timing cover on after doing this, then just remove all of the front and driver and passenger side oil pan bolts except for the two or three of the rear long oil pan bolts (these are the two or three rear oil pan bolts located near the transmission bell housing). And let the oil pan lower/drop even more to install the timing cover, be careful to not let the oil pan gasket drop into the oil pan, since the oil pan bolts will not be securing the oil pan gasket anymore, now that the oil pan bolts are removed (i do not think that the gasket will fall into the oil pan though). And you have to be careful not to damage the oil pan sealing flange gasket surface and/or oil pan gasket. You can also put something under the oil pan (like a strong cardboard box or a floor jack with a piece of wood between the oil pan and the floor jack), to stop it from dropping too low and possibly causing damage.
 
When you have the timing cover back on, just remember to re-install all of the original shorter oil pan bolts back on.
 
Below are some other methods that people have used.
Click here to see another thread about this subject.
 


Edited by dave302 - 10-May-2014 at 3:49PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Bird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-May-2014 at 2:35PM
The problem I see with lowering the pan is that the gasket will presumably leak afterward, especially if the gasket was installed with any sort of sealer - like Gaskacinch/Indian head...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2014 at 4:26AM
Thanks for the advice guys. I think I am going to try to crack the pan loose. If the gasket appears to stay together, I will RTV everything and hope for the best. If not, I guess I am stuck raising the engine and replacing the entire pan gasket.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dave302 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2014 at 12:35PM
Originally posted by Big Bird Big Bird wrote:

The problem I see with lowering the pan is that the gasket will presumably leak afterward, especially if the gasket was installed with any sort of sealer - like Gaskacinch/Indian head...
 
Sorry, I did not know that they had used any type of sealers on the oil pan gaskets from the factory, (when the engine was new 42 years ago). Now I would think that the oil pan gasket could possibly rip, tear or become distorted if you try to crack the pan loose.
 
But if that is the only way that you can install the timing cover, then i guess that you will have no other choice. Unless you can find out more information about grinding the lip off of the timing cover.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2014 at 8:30PM
I guess I cleared my cookies & I don't get notifications any more?

oh well. here's a couple threads but I don't have a good pic handy

not sure if that cover up above is trimmed or not, I can't imagine I didn't do it

http://www.network54.com/Forum/119419/thread/1249000271/Advanced+cam%2C+slowed+car+down-+Timing+questions

http://www.network54.com/Forum/119419/thread/1050389145/Timing+cover+problems

Edited by Rockatansky - 12-May-2014 at 8:30PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2014 at 8:33AM
Thanks Rockatansky!! After reading those threads I think this is by far the easiest option. If have time this weekend I will try to get it back together.

One question though. I am not sure why you put the RTV on the lower part of the timing cover like this in the photo:




I read your comment. Does is it to prevent oil from getting behind the rubber end seal?

Edited by 72FordGTS - 13-May-2014 at 8:43AM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2014 at 11:24AM


it's sealing the spot weld joint where the metal rail is joined to the cover body

from the factory the rail has sealer where I've put the RTV, but over years & from heavy cleaning the sealer may be compromised or gone completely

oil running down the inside of the cover will continue through the spot weld joint and find itself on the wrong side of the oil pan seal... outside the engine!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72RogerGT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2014 at 1:53PM
I was wondering the same thing regarding the Rtv sealant. I put a new cover on mine since the area where the water pump is mounted on was really thin and pitted. The new one was a whole piece.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2014 at 5:51AM
Thanks Rockatansky, that makes sense.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-May-2014 at 10:53AM
Got the crank seal out easily with a large socket. I just propped the cover up on some 2x4s. The new seal went in with a large socket too. I sealed up the spot weld with RTV as shown above.

As for the cover, I trimmed the corners. I did some searching on that website Rockatansky posted and found this photo:



I used RTV in the corners, so hopefully no leaks. I had to do a fair pit of prying to get it on the dowels but like Rockastansky said it went on.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bdaugette Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2014 at 9:52AM
Please update after you test for leaks.  I am interested in looking at my timing chain, but don't want to pull the oil pan.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-June-2014 at 3:17PM
Originally posted by bdaugette bdaugette wrote:

Please update after you test for leaks.  I am interested in looking at my timing chain, but don't want to pull the oil pan.


So far no leaks...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-June-2014 at 3:42PM
Originally posted by 72FordGTS 72FordGTS wrote:

I had to do a fair pit of prying to get it on the dowels...


I use a lever in each of the water pump ports to push down on the cover

and I use the old rubber seal(also trimmed) at the front of the pan
if it's in any condition to go again
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-June-2014 at 2:39AM
Originally posted by Rockatansky Rockatansky wrote:



I use a lever in each of the water pump ports to push down on the cover

and I use the old rubber seal(also trimmed) at the front of the pan
if it's in any condition to go again


I had read that in one of your other posts, so that's what I did too (including using the old seal). I still needed a lot of pressure. Maybe I didn't trim as much as I should have, but it went on and so far seems to be sealed up fine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rockatansky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-June-2014 at 12:32PM
sounds about right, if it were to go together easy it'd probably leak like a sieve

small trade-off in effort to avoid messing with the pan

I forget who's making these?




http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Ford-302-351C-Cleveland-2-Piece-Steel-Timing-Cover-/371010051801

http://atracingworld.com.au/p-870-ford-302-351c-cleveland-2-piece-steel-timing-cover.aspx

Edited by Rockatansky - 14-June-2014 at 12:33PM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bdaugette Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-July-2014 at 4:01AM
So if you use the 2 piece, do you still have to trim, or does it eliminate that problem.  I am pulling mine next weekend to replace the cam, so the timing cover installation will be on the menu...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-July-2014 at 7:24AM
The two piece would require you to remove the oil pan or do the "trim."   The idea is once the two piece cover is installed, you can then take off the cover to replace the cam with ease multiple times without having to deal with the front pan seal.
BTW, my oil pan seems to be leak free since the trim, I was under the car the other day and no signs of leaking.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bdaugette Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-July-2014 at 7:40AM
Thanks, I will be doing the trim to make my cover fit also.  Did you reuse your bottom seal, or replace it?  Did you trim it also?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 72FordGTS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-July-2014 at 11:16AM
I re-used the bottom seal and trimmed it to match the metal on the cover.  My original seal was in surprisingly good condition.  I figured if I messed it up, I still had the new one.
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