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Eliteman76 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-February-2012 at 6:25PM
Thanks guys.
I elected to run a small  external line, the line I have is your typical traded stainless AN line, #3? {or was it#4} AN line fittings, I aware it's a 3/16" or 1/4" ID line I used.
I only did this as a precaution and probably a knee jerk reaction due to an apparent oil PSI drop I had.
Which, was in fact after I had a bad curb in 2009 and the pickup was probably smashed into the cover.

Because I had a bad habit of spinning my engine at 4k on the highway, and also loved to fire through the gears in my top loader, I was concerned about the amount of oil, and oil pressure. This turned out to be of all things, the sending unit was loose and leaking a small bit.

My engine is a mystery rebuild...it was redone by someone at some point, but I have no info, as I bought it for $120 15+ years ago for my old Elite project.

I took the measure of widening a stock CJ baffle pan {another rather stupid deal...dropped my CJ crank on my CJ pan on summer day}
I have heard stories from some of the network 54 guys about the cleveland being able to literally suck a pan dry rather fast on engines running 5K+ for some period of time and figured 8-9 quarts vs the stock 6 can't hurt.

I don't have any good images of the line, but it's pretty much basic.
I know I've done pretty standard things, like making sure to swap out the pedestal fulcrums to steel vs the soft 2v originals, I had the heads gone through about 11 years ago for a hardened seat job and valves.

On the CJ, I am planning on sending it out to MME, because frankly, around here, there just is no one I freaking trust with my cleveland. Too much small block check garbage in the local machine shops.

On good laugh for the night...want to scare a woman? Show her the cost of a full crower engine parts list with one of their crank kits...LOL

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-February-2012 at 1:22AM
did you made a new pick up or still factory, I see your pan is deeper than stock
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-February-2012 at 5:07AM
Actually, I used a square off the block to confirm the depth measurement of the pickup to the bottom of the oil pan, kept it at 3/8" {10mm} from the bottom if I recall.

The bottom of the pan got crushed and dented pretty badly, so I cut it out, and used parts of a pan off a 400 that I had taken apart some time ago.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-February-2012 at 7:32AM
Hi, New Member, enjoy the threads and info. Interesting how the oiling system works. It can rob horse power either thru a lack of oil to left side lifters flattening out or heat build up due to not enough circulation fast enough to cool. Roush figured it out back in the 70's along with Scott Main owner of MPG HS and Cam Research, one of the best builders of Fords and the first Cam builder to flow heads and throw away the other brands cam Profiles to get the right cam/head combinations for Decades. His modification of the oiling system with the re route line talked about by previous members has been around for 35 plus years, long before ebay etc. So a wise investment for any combo and application on Cleveland's and bbf's along with an oil pan that gives enough volume to keep the engine cooler, hence an oil cooler is a very good idea.  I used a double remote filter on my street car back in the mid 70's,  which gives more available horsepower and greater longevity. Well worth the money spent. The cooler the block, the more available horse power.  I've had many combinations of Cleveland's and run into oil starvation at 5800-6000 Rpm on the street and track. All the oil goes to the right side head, bearings spin due to crank starvation. Back then I tried a holley oil cut off switch to protect my motor in my car, with the front lifting so hard, the oil would go to the back of the pan and shut the motor off with the switch, so I pulled the pan, welded a shield around the pump intake so just the screen would fit thru it and all the oil would not go to the back of the pan, then the RPM problem with the oil going to the right head, the car flattened out at upper RPM, Got Scott on the phone and picked up his hydraulic 597/562, put the line on and the rest is history.  So a penny of prevention is worth a pound of Cure, especially if you miss a shift, throw it in reverse etc.   I am glad to see all the interest and information and even some of the young people taking an interest in the vehicles and engines of the past.


Miller Time                                                              "Retired, doesn't mean DEAD"
72 Formal Roof 351C 2V FMX 2500 Stall 3.89s TL
70 Fastback Mustang 4V 4BLT CC 5spd 3.50 TL
70 Falcon small body project
Fresh built 545 Dyno next month!!!
djmmiller@cox.net
Go Mizzou.
Az, Wi, NV, MO

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-February-2012 at 1:57PM
Hey Dan...correct me is I am wrong, you still in AZ with that special blue 72{Or was it a 73} formal roof car?



Edited by Eliteman76 - 07-February-2012 at 1:57PM
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-February-2012 at 3:36PM
Hey Andy,


Thanks for remembering, been a long long time.  The blue one and the white one went down the road, along with several ranchero's etc. but who knows, may come back around the block. Interesting how life often repeats itself and you don't have to be a VETERAN with PTSD to experience it...hahaha

I Have a nice clean 72, resto mod, everything but frame off, looking to move that, so I can work on my 70 falcon later this year.

Glad to see the thread on the Crown Vic body mounts, most guys used to use hockey pucks...Yes for real.

Good that you put the oil line on as safety measure, never know when the R's might reach the moon. I meant to say in my thread 6800-7000, most boss 351's shifted at 6000 to 6500 for the 1/4 mile tests from the factory at 13.53 104, memory not as good as it once was. But keeping the oil clean and using the remote oil filter cooler combo keeps the oil cooler and helps longevity. Less heat less wear, more HP.  By the way has there been a forum discussion on the new oils (past 6 yrs) not having zinc and the need to be careful putting non zinc oils in all older motors, Clevelands etc?  Zinc keeps friction down,

Picked up a place in the country, two huge sheds lots of room for cars.  Been warmer past week, working to sort and get stuff up off the floor and on shelves, make it look more like a shop than a pile. Lots of room, lots of land, actual oxygen in the air.

Nice to see your car......sweet.... great  combo and clean. Thinking when I go to Vegas of driving one of mine and stopping by for a cruise.....may have to fly, got 3 more storage units of parts and cars to clean out in Az, but might stop on way back in mid april if your going to be around.

The 545 stroker is done, bushed the lifter galleys for street/strip use, Kaase type Heads CNC'd by Scott MPG, Schneider 600 inch solid 278 @ 50...for now, can go alot bigger with a solid roller, but not friendly for the street, this combo should dyno 650 plus on hp and TQ.will find out soon..its sitting on a engine stand waiting for that moment of ignition and instant thunder. KEE  CHOW!!! Kinda excited to get it in Josh's 70 Montego, need CJ 2 1/8 or 2 1/4 headers if you know anyone, then his 500hp Cleveland goes into my 70 w C4, said it will be my last one, but SH's and we always have a disclaimer like, JUST KIDDING....or another idea, a BETTER IDEA......any.....FORD. 

Cleveland's live despite all the efforts of the unknowledgeable, unwilling, and the UN BRAND, to KILL them.  People will do anything to keep from being beaten by a FORD, but will always ask if it is a CHEVELLE??????? COME ON MAN!!!!

I joined primarily because I saw you are on here. So I know it is all good.

Thanks for your friendship,

Dan 

Miller Time                                                              "Retired, doesn't mean DEAD"
72 Formal Roof 351C 2V FMX 2500 Stall 3.89s TL
70 Fastback Mustang 4V 4BLT CC 5spd 3.50 TL
70 Falcon small body project
Fresh built 545 Dyno next month!!!
djmmiller@cox.net
Go Mizzou.
Az, Wi, NV, MO

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-February-2012 at 11:34PM
Nice to see more Ford guys around.   Everywhere I go I'm surrounded by Chevy guys.  Growing up I was the only Ford guy in my group of friends.
 
Aside from oil system fixes. I'm trying to figure out the total cost/work involved to build my cleveland.   Money is an object, but willing to invest if the return in value is there (like getting good heads)   I plan on street/strip and want to target in the 500hp range keeping RPMs <7500.
 
Along with oil system...if you have any links information or other forum threads to point me to I would appreciate it.   I'm torn deciding to put a period correct 429 or build up the cleveland.   I'm leaning toward the cleveland because its the original Q code motor, but if it gets to expensive to build it I'll look for a 429.   Thats why I'm researching all the machine work needed for the oil system.  
 
At least the 429/460 wont have to rev that high to get the HP.
 
Very good information on this link about 351C oil system...and some history.


Edited by BackInBlack - 08-February-2012 at 3:41AM
-John
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-February-2012 at 4:40PM
Great comment, If money is an issue,  Start with the Block, do it right. Then add the great heads and intake, carb later. Do it once, do it right.

Taking a basic Q code, 260 hp open chamber motor 72-74 and going to a 71 boss 351 build is relatively inexpensive and nets about 100 -150hp, 350 - 400. 2k

To get up to 500 hp on motor means adjusting up the cam 630-650 solid or roller, parker or strip dominator intake, up the compression to 12-13, modify the oil system to spin more Rs, possible lifter bore inserts,( I don't think they are needed up to 7k) Extensive block and head work with 2.19 to 2.25 valves,Titanium. big oil pan, h beam rods. add another 2-3k.

A bbf will last much longer at lower RPM's for alot less and you can still put a power adder on to go to 700-900 hp in the future.  3-4k. . No replacement for displacement.  A pro built Kaase is about 9-10k, HMMMM.

I like to refer to the Falcon Build David Kee went thru. The build is at the end of their 4 speed tranny web site. Had they decided in the beginning to go all out, it would have saved alot of time and money. BUT,, and A BIG BUTT, there is alot of FUN going thru the process. They made a plan, changed the plan, changed the plan etc.

I have one of the 70 Falcons and plan to do some thing similar with a cleveland and Big Block Toploader....Another project that is on hold and down the road...

Network 54 has a nice thread on 500 hp cleveland from 2002.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/119419/thread/1037946092/1039206622/Recipe+for+500

Will have two nice fresh broke in Clevelands both with roller rockers, forged pistons, balanced, etc, 2-3k miles 72 2v oc 2800, comp cam, headers, or 72 4v 3800, w cc'd hds 4blt sig erson cam, exhaust manifolds, in cars now, can drive and hear run. I plan on putting them on the classified part area soon.

Dan

    "Retired, doesn't mean DEAD"
72 Formal Roof 351C 2V FMX 2500 Stall 3.89s TL
70 Fastback Mustang 4V 4BLT CC 5spd 3.50 TL
70 Falcon small body project
Fresh built 545 Dyno next month!!!
Go Mizzou.
Az, Wi, NV, MO

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-February-2012 at 5:53PM
Threads like this are exactly why I'm going to install the "back up" engine. It could take me an extra year or two just to sort out the original cobrajet.
The oiling system has been one of the my great internal debates. Not that I haven't seen other pro - con articles involving the external line vs. restrictors and bushings, but the back and forth here is infinitely more helpful. I'm now actually leaning toward oil restriction. That and investing in a second set of crank bearings. I do have two questions for anyone.
1. Is anyone currently using modified cam bearings to substitute for installing restrictors?
2. Is anyone using both restriction and the external oil line?
Thoughts?            
 
This is an awesome thread guys, a credit to it's participants. 
Chuck
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-February-2012 at 1:33AM
lots of info, I wonder how much i will pull out from mine, 
I thought about having  lift of around 580, I wonder how much the heads can take without mods, if mine are still stock. Gotta crack open that engine soon
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-February-2012 at 2:01AM
The conclusions that I'm coming to are dependent upon how you use it:
Street use, cruise night, etc (<5500 to occassionally hit 6K playing at the strip):  Stock is fine with the correct lifters and making sure everything is clearanced properly.  Attention to the lifter bore clearances, main/rod bearing clearances, etc.   Use stock volume/pressure oil pump and maybe increase the oil pan volume as insurance.
 
Heavy Street occasional strip(6-6.5K rpm):   Clearanced and correct oil metering lifters prefer solid cam to reduce oil, restricting cam bearings mentioned previously, external oil line, restrictive push rods.   Stock oil pump with increase oil pan (351C boss 6qt, looks stock but has baffling and oil dip stick registered for 6qt) and pickup.  Oil cooler is beneficial.
 
Street/strip Performance (7K + rpm):   Lifter bushings a must.   Oil restrictors for teh cam bearings or use the pre-fabbed cam bearings mentioned earlier on this thread.  Oil restrictor push rods (I plan to use the tapered type with Yella Terra rockers)   Full groove main bearings like the 351Boss, this will require 2 main bearing sets using the halves from each with the groove.  This give oil to the rods through the full rotation of the engine.   Carefull attention to clearances is important but the main and rod bearing clearances are loosened slightly to 0.0020-0.0025 main and 0.0025-0.0030 rod.    Stock or modified for more pressure oil pump with a larger oil pan with improved pickup a must (7qt min prolly best for insurance).   Definitely an oil cooler to boost reliabilty.
 
I think this is a concise summary....without to many details.  We prolly can expand this list
Comments?   Did I get an overall summary list here?
-John


Edited by BackInBlack - 09-February-2012 at 2:53AM
-John
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-February-2012 at 2:08AM
Originally posted by lynchster lynchster wrote:

Threads like this are exactly why I'm going to install the "back up" engine. It could take me an extra year or two just to sort out the original cobrajet.
The oiling system has been one of the my great internal debates. Not that I haven't seen other pro - con articles involving the external line vs. restrictors and bushings, but the back and forth here is infinitely more helpful. I'm now actually leaning toward oil restriction. That and investing in a second set of crank bearings. I do have two questions for anyone.
1. Is anyone currently using modified cam bearings to substitute for installing restrictors?
2. Is anyone using both restriction and the external oil line?
Thoughts?            
 
This is an awesome thread guys, a credit to it's participants. 
If you do the lifter bushings you wont need the external line.   That is my understanding from researching of this topic.   I'm wondering if you connect the lifter galleries at the front of the motor to help balance the oil distribution between the 2 banks....prolly overkill and I didn't see any background info from racers in the past doing this.

Edited by BackInBlack - 09-February-2012 at 2:09AM
-John
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-February-2012 at 2:09AM
I'm going all out on that engine, I want a power band to start around 4500-5000 and plan to spin it up to 7000-7500.
I'm going with solid flat tappet, bushing on lifters, and everything in between. 
I want to take my block apart to see what the previous engine builder did, it might save me a bit of money.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-February-2012 at 5:26AM
Originally posted by lynchster lynchster wrote:

1. Is anyone currently using modified cam bearings to substitute for installing restrictors?
2. Is anyone using both restriction and the external oil line?
Thoughts? 
 
www.351C.net member Chris Kelly http://raceabilene.com/kelly/hotrod/index.html has/had the cam bearings flipped & drilled for an orifice in his engine, pretty sure it has since been retired or it may be still in service i'm not sure
 
more than a few members there are also running the external line and internal restrictors, here's a link to the Build forum, take a gander and see if anybody lists their mods
http://www.network54.com/Forum/263038/
 
i have Tim Meyers bearings still not yet installed, block is getting bushed on at least 1 side, maybe i'll go all the way and do both sides not $ure yet. external line can be added/removed any time
72 GT Ute
   
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-February-2012 at 6:23PM
Nice to see you here Dan, always good to have another Torino guy in our midst.

{Not to get off topic, BUT does Sam still have the convertible Mark 5? }

See, to be honest, originally I figured I'd just have my CJ bushed, and have the heads cleaned up.
I know Mark are MME caching was suggesting to either find a set of closed chamber heads, or aftermarket heads over my '72 CJ OC 4v heads.
I really do want to build my CJ and put it back where it belongs. I did take your suggestions some time back and had discussed with Scott at MPG, super nice guy over the phone.

It was posed to me "What do you want out of the engine, what are you planning on doing with it" by both Mark and Scott, respectively.

In my case, I just want to have a good, solid street engine. I was asked what sort of HP level I thought I needed, and to be honest, I am not concerned about a monster peak HP number. What I want is something with torque to push your ass into the trunk...even at 50 MPH when I slam it into high gear and hit the go pedal.

To me, if I get a car with 350-400 HP, honestly, I am fine with it. Just want good parts that will last a long time.
As the saying goes...you can have a very bright candle with a short fuse, or have a long burning candle with just the right amount of light.

Personally...I'd love to do a turbo or supercharger build but bah, not for me. I like the KISS mentality.
If I can find some '71 Boss 4v CC 4v heads, I'd just reuse my stock CJ crank and rods, ARP fasteners, and probably an RPM air gap intake and performer carb. I'd love to do a webber EFI setup with 8 stacks. One of those love/lust things I guess.

I'd like to long term, honestly go with a company like Trickflow.
This is something that catches my interest.
EFI intake setup, use a 460 TFI distributor, roller cam setup, and look into a set of good heads.
Back it with a 6 speed and I am good.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-February-2012 at 11:51PM
I want to do something similar as you Andy, but I want to pull more HP out of it.   To do that you either increase displacement or spin the motor faster....or both.   Perhaps a cast stroker kit with I beam rods...Scat 9000 crank and rods, forged pistons, bearings/rings, etc.   I have found for $1200 online.   Compared to all the machine work, shot peening, etc. It seems like a good value trade.
 
Spinning it faster will require those oil mods.  I dont want to risk blowing the motor after making that investment.   Unless your doing a stock rebuild...Its not worth the risk to me to go half way.   I'm going to do all the oil mods (full bushings)  to spin it to 7K+ rpm. 
 
I have the same ideas about EFI...I was looking at the Mass-flo setup since its a turn-key solution.  Time vs money...   I dont have much of either right now.   Other EFI option was using a Ford EDIS system, cam sensor from a 302 Explorer with the housing of a 351C dist.   Taking a 302 Mustang harness/computer and using that trick flow intake.   I dont think that intake will fit under a hood.   Have you done any measurements with that to check?
 
I think the Mass flo setup will be less expensive in teh end and fit under the hood.
 
-John
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-February-2012 at 7:42AM
Hi Andy, Sam still has it, love that car. I have the heads, pm.

I like your plan, Most Clevelands with that kind of HP are Rolling Thumpers. like our Montego.

My son Josh, Monte1go, 70 Montego, has a approx 500 hp cleveland, (will dyno along w 545 bbf sometime in the spring) good rods, balanced, stock stroke, parker intake, 950 carb, huge fuel system, 2 in hookers, iron closed chamber heads w the big valves, port plates, Scott's 670 lift solid, ...oil line..., 8 qt pan, c4 w 3500 and 4k convertors, 4.56's. broke in last year, look to run this spring, has not been over 7000 up to this point. Plans are to run 11.51 index, car is without cage.  Up in the air, Changing flywheel, convertor from 3500-4k, taking bent bars off, prob go to South Side bars etc, Track opens April 7th.

put about 1k in fuel system getting it to the point that you can get the HP out of what you have.

Most people have a HP number based on Advertising, when in fact it could be a lot higher with a better fuel system. Trying to get better HP without upgrading the fuel system won't happen.

Back in the 70's I ran 13.6 index with street tires and mufflers, Torker intake, 1 3/4" primaries, small by todays standards, 3/8 fuel line and a little holley elec pump, 4.56s C6 2500 convertor. using a similar setup today with 3500 stall, parker or strip dominator,  2 inch primaries, 5/8 line and with fuel cell, big fuel pump w return line would run mid 11's.  And that is about what your thinking of doing. I can ask Josh if he wants to sell his motor???? I really don't know if he would. He loves to build Clevelands and fuel systems, though, so he might.

http://www.hotrodpitstop.com/tool.php is a calculator to run some numbers, experiment with weight of your car w you and yours in it.  Remember unless it specify's,  HP is measured at the Crank.

I like the fuel injection idea, would like to do that on our 545, but cost is always a big factor.

Dan

"Retired, doesn't mean DEAD"
72 Formal Roof 351C 2V FMX 2500 Stall 3.89s TL
70 Fastback Mustang 4V 4BLT CC 5spd 3.50 TL
70 Falcon small body project
Fresh 545 Dyno coming!!!
djmmiller@cox.net
Go Mizzou.
Az, Wi, NV, MO









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