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moose0211 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Oil System
    Posted: 24-July-2010 at 5:05AM

I always hear about how Clevelands have poor oiling systems and how all of thoses mods should be done to be safe. Is this really necessary for street engines? If I were to install a perma cool oil cooler, how would I tap into the oil? from the pan?

Thanks,
-Lou
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-July-2010 at 6:13PM
have had several 351 Cleveland rebuilt for street use and currently have 6 cars that have 351 Clevelands all built for street use.  I have asked all kinds of questions to many different "Engine Experts" specifically 351 Cleveland experts and I am told that the only oil issue with the Cleveland is when you get into the real high revving performance engines and that there is no real need for modifications to the oiling system for a street engine. The issue has to do with oil starvation at real high revs and if needed there is a simple rerouting kit you can pick up on Ebay that attaches to the oil pug just above the oil filter and fuel pump and connects to the back of the block where the oil pressure  sensor mounts.  I don't think an oil cooler  would address the oil starvation issue if in fact you would be having the oil starvation issue with your engine setup.  I just had a 1972 351 Cleveland Cobra Jet rebuilt with a new Lunati cam, new higher performance springs, roller rockers
and high volume oil pump.  I was told no need for further modifications to the oiling system.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-July-2010 at 12:51PM
Just a few comments on this one.
 
There is a bunch of mis-information on the Cleveland oiling system. It has been well documented.
 
1) The 351 Cleveland and 429-460 use the same design oiling system. Both engines use the same path to oil there internal components, but the 429-460 never gets the bad press the Cleveland does. If it is a poor design on one, how come not on both?
 
2) The biggest mistake you can make on a Cleveland is to put a high volume pump in the engine with a stock capacity pan. You increase the volume of oil moved by the pump, but never increase the volume of oil you are moving.
 
Instant problem.
 
I have seen multiple people do any combination of the following.
 
Install a high volume pump. 
Install a high pressure pump. 
Put a high pressure spring into a high volume pump to make a high pressure, high volume pump.
 
BUT THEY NEVER PUT A BIG PAN ON IT.
 
If you use a stock pan, use a stock pump.
 
If you upgade the pump, spend the money on a quality, high capacity pan and matching pickup.
 
Mike H.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-August-2010 at 6:16PM
the original lifters from Ford didn't flow a ton of oil to the top, aftermarket lifters flow much more than Ford designed for, some more than others. agree that the stock system is fine for 90% of builds as is, & pan volume is a big help. stock HO Clevelands came with a baffled pan & a dipstick that read full with 6 quarts in the same pan as base model 5 quart Cleveland. under hard use that extra quart is 'in limbo' draining back to the pan.
 
a cooler isn't necessary but i noticed right away that my P71 Crown Vic with a cooler kept it's oil clean much longer than any engine i've ever had w/o a cooler. the cooler lines would route from an adapter that installs between the block and oil filter, or you could remote mount the filter to the frame or fenderwell depending upon the adapter you choose
 
 


Edited by Rockatansky - 01-August-2010 at 6:17PM
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-August-2010 at 3:38AM
Thanks guys, since my oil pan will probably need replaced, should I go with a bigger 6 quart? I'm not worried about the oil because the car will most likely never see a strip, but I figure if I am having to buy a new pan, might as well get a bigger one, right? Off topic but I dont think it is worth starting another thread about, has anyone had experience with Lunati? I am liking the Voodoo camshafts 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-August-2010 at 4:16AM
what's wrong with your stock pan? good replacements aren't cheap, cheap ones aren't good and chrome leaks. the cheap chrome pans are less than 5 quarts.  i'd rather fix a stock pan than use new junk. actually strip duty might not be as bad as the open road for pumping the pan dry, you can keep your foot down a lot longer on the interstate. something to check is the oil return drains from the head at the head gasket. i found that the gasket doesn't always line up right and significantly blocks off the return hole in the block, i haven't checked if the head lines up with the gasket yet
 
a mild build should be fine with a standard oil pump & stock pan 
 
no experience with Lunati but lots of guys like them. i'd start a new thread, you'll get more traffic to the topic


Edited by Rockatansky - 02-August-2010 at 4:41AM
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-August-2010 at 8:07AM
I just installed a Lunati 5203 in my 1972 Ranchero Gt 4 speed, I only have a few hundred miles on it and so far I like it.  The power range is bit higher than stock but there is lots of it.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-August-2010 at 8:58AM
My stock pan is very rusty and there sre small leaks around the top edge. Before I buy a new one I am going to drop the pan, sand it and coat it with soe POR-15 and also replace the gasket, I am thinking the gasket is the culprit. I didnt know they made chrome pans, seems kind of stupid as nobody looks under the car LOL. I will start a new thread on the cams in the 72-76 forum because I want broad responses from people with different engines. Thanks Rockatansky, SquireCJ and MTburger
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-August-2010 at 12:27PM
if it is rust i'd say replace it for sure with either quality or stock. the Cobra Jet pan has a baffle in it
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-August-2010 at 10:59AM
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MOR-20557/

I found this to be ideal for my 500HP + build & fits my 72" chassis.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-August-2010 at 3:55PM
does that pan really take 6 qts to the full mark on a stock dipstick?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-August-2010 at 3:23AM
According to the spec it holds 6 quarts. I originally purchased the 8 quart Milodon but when I dropped the engine into place the pan interfered with the cross member. This Moroso was not only less money
but is shaped almost exactly like the original. Unfortunately, I was poised to install yesterdat but ran into another issue with the B&M torque converter that I selected. Once again, according to Summit was the correct part. However, my original flex plate & torque converter are an eight bolt pattern & the B&M is a 4 bolt pattern. As for the dipstick, even though I still have the original I had purchased a Milodon to accomidate the deep pan. It was $50.00 and decided to keep it because it is cool. Billit aluminum & SS braided. The dipstick issue ought to be easy to get around so long as it seats properly.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-August-2010 at 10:34AM
your 8 stud/nut flex/converter is the factory Cobra Jet 2800 stall set up, does the new converter not fit the flex at all? it'll be fine with 4 mounting points if they line up 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-August-2010 at 2:17PM
No good on the fit to stock as the bolt diameter is off by about 2".
I went to the B&M site and found out that a new flexplate is required.

May as well since just about every part has been refurbished from crank pulley to tailshaft housing.

I needed longer header bolts anyway as I am using Stinger exhaust port plates, so it's not like I could have fired it up anyway.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-May-2011 at 12:32PM
For street engines not seeing over 6k rpm, mostly under 5K street driving...there is nothing wrong with the cleveland oil system.   You do not need a high pressure or high volume oil pump.
 
The biggest problem you will find in reliability is the 2 piece stock valves.  they have a repuation for breaking.   Also, on the rods replace the nuts with ARP nuts.   They nuts also have a repuation for breaking.   The rods are fine for a street build with mild cam as are the rod bolts.
 
When you build a 7K+ rpm motor you have to make some mods like:
oil restrictors for the cam bearings
bushings for the lifters
replace the push rods with oil restictor types
replace main bearing using the 351Boss kit or 2 main kits using the groove bearing top and bottom
get the right lifters, clevelands are different than windsors. you shouldn't put windsor lifters in a cleveland.  Crane has a good rep for cleveland parts.
Use a Boss 351 pan and oil pickup, 6qt
 
Even with doing these mods you dont need a high pressure or high volume oil pump.   These are some of teh things done with the race clevelands when they first came out.   Ford motosport used to source the lifter bushing kits, not any longer.  (Take a close look at the 351 Boss, many of these things were done on the boss from the factory.  Which is why it had a solid lifter cam.)
 
Clevelands are serious powerplants when built right.   They will cost more than a windsor motor, but all other things equal it will always outperform a Windsor.   (The main reason is friction due to the crank bearing size...etc.)  The big block 385 series are very similar (bigger sibling), just scaled up in size.   Same oiling system issues. 
 
I have some reference links and books that I will try to dig up and put on this post.  
 
The only thing I wish that I could change on the cleveland (except the oil system) is a taller deck height so I could stroke it without forcing the piston pin to close to the ring pack.  I like full skirt pistons and bulding it to be as reliable as stock for everyday driving.   IMO, that means that stroking beyond 392 cubes or 408 max wont be as reliable for street.
 
There is a good after market aluminum block that can be bought with a 9.5" deck height.   Check out the Fontana block or now Tod Buttermore is suppose to bring one out.  The Fontana block has been out for a while now.
 
 
Basically, a 351C crank in a 351W block.   I plan to stroke my cleveland and use chevy sized rods.
 
The biggest issues I have read about the clevelands is the oil system for race motors...its as if the managers at ford went into a cost cutting binge stopping the engineers from finishing the motor the right way.   Second, was quality control...I understand that some blocks were not square.  The bores weren't correct across the engine and the only way to fix that is have it bored 30 over and aligned/squared ( cant remember the correct terminology).
 
There are some very knowledgable guys in the Pantera forums.   I have found most of the good info there.
 
Check these links out:
 
 
 
-John
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2011 at 4:10PM
I was running through the conversations and was wondering if the stock 351c 4v cobra jet oil pan takes 5 or 6 qts of oil?
-Ben

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2011 at 4:19PM
Mine takes 5qts...73 Cobra Jet...aka Sport model

351Boss has a 6qts pan, better pump, and better pickup I believe
-John
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2011 at 5:03PM
i think the pans are all the same at 5 qt's but the dipstick on some engines, Boss & HO? were calibrated for a 6 qt full mark
 
the idea is that a quart(or more) is in limbo during hard operation and the extra quart helps keep the pick-up covered
 
there are/were 2 different pick-ups but all pumps from the factory were standard volume, not sure about the pressure springs?
 
this is the performance pick up screen
 
 
this is the grocery getter screen
 
 
figure 5 total in the engine minus the oil in the filter... maybe just over a gallon in the pan doesn't seem like much. i'm about to wash up a couple pans, now you've got me curious what 4 & 5 quarts looks like in the pan. i'll take some pics


Edited by Rockatansky - 13-May-2011 at 5:06PM
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2011 at 2:30AM
Yup...you are correct about the dipstick.   Forgot about that.   Looks the same externally with a re-cal dipstick.   The boss pan was also baffled.
-John
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-May-2011 at 7:27PM
i got some pics of my pan with 4 & 5 quarts in it. 4 qts put the level about 5 3/4" down from the top, with 5 qts it was 5 1/4" down from the top, rough estimate the crank is about 3 1/2" down into the pan
 
 
 
then i got a few of another pan with 4, 5, 6 & 7 in it
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-February-2012 at 9:05AM
Dragging this older thread back up.
On the builds, one of the basic things I have seen, that I will do on my CJ, is when the block goes out to be machined, it will get the lifter bores bushed.
There was some significant discussion about this on the 335 network 54 forum.

Basics, always follow the basics...while I always assumed some crazy Gran National "Hank the Crank" oiling system mod was required to make the clev live, not needed on the street. I could see a drag boat, drag racing, circle track usage but for the street? Doubt it.

I elected to do a small external line on my 71 351c as a basic precaution.
You could build a kit using a couple brass fittings and a line quite easily, or pick up a AN stainless line with some adapters.


Andrew: Long time Torino guy and GTS.ORG admin
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-February-2012 at 10:31AM
Some basics that I've learned.  Oiling system:  if your under 6K rpm stock is fine.  If your on a track and consistantly over 6k-7K+ then you will need some mods.   

1.  Add bushings to the lifters.  I found a kit with tooling that will let you install them yourself for about $400
2.  Add oil restrictors in the block from the mains to the cam bearings.   This forces more pressure/oil to the mains (same Moroso kit that Jack Roush used...I think its mentioned in one of the links)
3.  Use the full grooved bearings on the mains like that found on the 351Boss.  this may take buying 2 main bearing sets and using the grooved half out of each.
4.  Make sure you use the correct lifters.  People will sell you lifters for a 351W by mistake.  Crower still sells the correct 351C lifters.  Also the 351Boss used a solid lifter cam to reduce the draw of oil to teh valve train.   If you use a hydraulic cam the bushings oil hole will need to be sized a little larger.
5.  Use push rods that restrict the flow to the rockers.   I understand that you need to target 0.040-0.060ish range.
6.  Also I believe that the mains and rods need 0.0025 clearances...but dont take my word for it.  Double check this info.  I think stock was on the order of 0.0017 but for racing you need more clearance.   

Andy...I wouldn't add that external line.   Make sure you double check the effects.   Basically this is patch and doesn't fix the problem.   The oil system in a 351C is the same as that found in the 429/460 385 series motors.   Its actually a good system when everything is clearanced properly.  Like a sprinkler system or any fluid distribution you have less "friction" through a large central main with tributaries branching off which is what the 351C/429/460 oil system is designed.   It has one large central oil pipe running through the middle of teh block feeding the cam and mains.  The problem is if any of the tributaries  can take to much fluid off the main line and starve it dropping fluid pressure.  By the time the oil gets to main #5 from the oil pump on main #1 the pressure drops at high rpm because the tributaries feeding the cam and valve train take to much off the main central distribution.   By restricting those paths fluid pressure is maintained and the majority of the oil is forced to the mains where it is needed.  

Keep in mind that when they raced 351C external lines were not needed.

Here is a link with some good info

Look at the pantera websites.   351C got a bad rep for this oil problem, but when you really dig into the engine design its actually a very impressive design.   Big HP out of lower displacement.
Also, you only need a standard pressure/standard volume oil pump for most applications if the oil system is done properly with a higher capacity oil pan of course with baffling.

Here is some more info I dug up regarding a retrofit Jack Roush did to improve the high rpm oil pressure.

Another info link about the oil system and oil pump mods:
Hello,my name is Bill .
I live in Tenn. I have raced 351 c for many years . Your article is very good in talking about 351c but you and I disagree on one thing in my experience it is not good to put high volume /high pressure oil pump on a 351c . Here is another way use layout fluid to make sure holes in   main bearings are the same size as the saddle in the block.use 2 5/16 washers between the cotter pin and cup in the stock oil pump resrtict 234 main with moroso ,010 kit. if you do this you will have 10 pounds oil pressure at idle and 80 pounds at 8000 rpm. (I cannot take credit for this info but you can give credit to Mr roush(jack ) as he told me this was theyre setup in thetyre nascar engines in the day ) run a solid lifter ,cam 294 solid from comp cams is an excellent cam for 4 bbl 351 c even though  it is not split duration with port plates from csi racing as well as a windage tray I ran 11-1 compression with open chamber 4 bbl heads an 800 cfm holley(tuned) and hooker super comps through dual 2.5s with crossover .it was in a mach 1 mustang that ran (with a 4 speed )in the 6s eigth mile.it would smash the back bumper on the ground on the street.
 Again I think you have a lot of great info . the only reason I offer this info is that I spun a lot of rod bearings trying to run aftermarket oil pumps til Jack showed me the light,
Thanks,Bill
 
 


Please dont take this info as gospel....double check and do the research.   I'm still trying to decide to keep the 351C or build a 429...I like the cleveland, but getting performance parts seem really difficult.

As I dig through my research I'll try to post more details...

This is a very good write up explaining the problem with a oil system diagram.


-John



Edited by BackInBlack - 05-February-2012 at 12:09AM
-John
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-February-2012 at 10:38AM
Originally posted by moose0211 moose0211 wrote:

Thanks guys, since my oil pan will probably need replaced, should I go with a bigger 6 quart? I'm not worried about the oil because the car will most likely never see a strip, but I figure if I am having to buy a new pan, might as well get a bigger one, right? Off topic but I dont think it is worth starting another thread about, has anyone had experience with Lunati? I am liking the Voodoo camshafts 

If your not going to race it then just keep the stock pan.   The only upgrade would be a 351Boss oil pan and pick-up which is essentially a stock pan with baffling.   Its a advertised as a 6qt pan but actually the dip stick was changed to allow more oil in the pan yet it holds the same amount as a stock pan.

Its been so long...I'm just repeating what was already said in the thread...

This can be deleted...John


Edited by BackInBlack - 04-February-2012 at 10:45AM
-John
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-February-2012 at 10:44AM
Andy if your just looking for a quick fix and not a motor rebuild with bushings and cam restrictors; you can prolly just do a mechanical cam with oil restrictors in the push rods just to give you a little extra confidence that you wont break it if you push it hard.   This alone will help keep more oil in the bottom end instead delivering it to the valve train.

Just a thought.

-John
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-February-2012 at 12:04PM
check out www.lifterboretools.com you can bush only the side that feeds the mains, making a kit cover 2 blocks or reducing your shop cost by 1/2. if you're gonna use a roller cam bush all the holes because most roller lifters flow too much oil, many will cause the pump to suck the pan dry 
 
full groove mains were also part of the Original Recipe that has been overlooked. bearing makers say the full groove doesn't show any benefit to the mains and that a non-grooved lower shell holds a better oil wedge, that may be true but the groove in the lower shell isn't for the mains, it's for oiling the rod bearings
 
the Hank the Crank internal plumbing system was an attempt to fix an 'oiling problem' that surfaced after the original lifters were discarded and the Nodular cast cranks were replaced with supposedly more durable steel cranks. Nodular cast cranks absorb vibrations, steel doesn't, and the steel crank engines developed bearing problems... must be an 'oiling problem', right? to this day the stock Nodular cast cranks are not the weak link in a Cleveland nor are the stock rods up to over 7000 rpm 
 
today even the Roush restrictors have been 1-upped, and it's been argued that they are also a steel crank patch that didn't work. Tim Meyer markets special cam bearings that not only control oil flow on all 5 cam bearings instead of only the rear 4 but also introduce the oil wedge at the 4:00 position instead of 6:00. this means the oil wedge is under the entire bottom of the cam journal rather than only 1/2 of it  


Edited by Rockatansky - 04-February-2012 at 12:44PM
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-February-2012 at 12:15PM
Good post !

Also you can install cam bearings rotate so the stock oil hole faces upward to the block and redrill the correct restrictor hole size in the bearing to face the oil passage way. 

This is a quick fix that doesn't require machining the block for oil restrictors.   

I'm not sure which is better...or if it even matters.

Seems like we can put together a "recipe" of these improvements we learn and post it.   We need more build-ups recipes so we can have a single source of info to answer these questions.

That is also a good point regarding the stock crankshaft.   The stock crank is the same used in a 351boss except the boss was screened and tested with a hardness test.   The only weak link in the rotating assembly is the rod bolts and more namely the rod nuts.   These should be replaced with the best quality ARP bolts.   I also have talked to people running clevelands with stock lower end running to 7K rpm so long as the clearances/oil control is addressed.

Oil wedge on bottom of the cam bearing...can you explain a little more?

BTW...another source for the lifter bore bushings

cam bearing reference


-John


Edited by BackInBlack - 04-February-2012 at 12:33PM
-John
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-February-2012 at 12:37PM
i like the trick where the cam bearings are drilled opposite the original oil hole and installed so the new hole becomes the restrictor, but it only works on the rear 4 positions, the front cam bearing has a lot goin on and can't be flipped
 
the stock cam bearing feeds from the 6:00 position and the oil is drawn by rotation clockwise from the front. from 6:00 on the cam journal is on an oil wedge but before 6:00 it's Good Luck as long as some of the oil stays with the journal all the way around the top. Tim's bearings introduce the oil at around 4:00 so the oil wedge is drawn from the side all the way under the cam journal
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-February-2012 at 12:19AM
I stand corrected about the external line....

I had always heard that it was bad idea or should be avoided.  This is from that article link I posted above.


I also didn't realize that the 2nd lifter bank was fed off #5 main...eek not sure why they did that.  Scratching my head right now.

Obviously, I still have more research to do on this subject.   With all this extra machine work I'm not sure its worth keeping the cleveland.   Maybe build a clevor instead.  That article explains why I have so much lifter noise.
-John
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-February-2012 at 5:55AM
the external line won't hurt anything, some say it won't help anything either but it does change the supply route to the rear main. stock the rear main is last in line to get oil, with the external line the middle main becomes last in line from both ends
 
what Ford and many others did was use the drivers side lifter galley as a reservoir that feeds the mains, installing lifter bore bushings creates a 'priority main' system
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-February-2012 at 6:13AM
Its seems to me that at a minimum the bushings should be installed in the lifter bores and the cam bearings replaced with those you suggested.  Anything else is a stop gap measure.
-John
1973 GTS
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