back pressure,needed or not
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Forum Name: General Automotive Technical Discussion
Forum Description: Technical Automotive discussion of anything not specific to mid-size Ford/Merc
URL: https://forum.grantorinosport.org/forum_posts.asp?TID=16401
Printed Date: 20-April-2024 at 4:47AM
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Topic: back pressure,needed or not
Posted By: fordpower
Subject: back pressure,needed or not
Date Posted: 19-July-2017 at 5:31AM
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Well thinking of replacing my cats. tried to do some research on back pressure.I found it very confusing to say the least. does anyone have opinion . I like sound with cats and no mufflers. |
Replies:
Posted By: GranTorinoSport
Date Posted: 19-July-2017 at 7:12AM
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Back pressure is needed for lower end power and driveability. Lack of back pressure is desired for high RPM and race applications, however those vehicles don't have to worry about driving on the street. The absence of your catalytic converters with the muffler(s) remaining will likely reduce some back pressure but not to an exceptional degree. I'm not sure how much back pressure the original factory cats provided, but like anything I would imagine the early ones were probably far worse than a more modern one. If you want more sound, I would not remove the mufflers, rather choose a new muffler. There are several good offerings that will reduce back pressure and increase sound. I know many members here will have some strong opinions on good and bad mufflers. I think I used a Dynomax on mine (I'd have to look up which one). I got a higher flowing model that still was touted as "quiet", coupled with dual 2.5 inch exhaust (and an H-pipe) for my 521. I'm happy with it, but you can tell between the 600cfm carb and the 2.5 exhaust that it hits a wall when you are WOT. The 600 cfm carb is me just being cheap (it was laying around) until I get fuel injection, but the 2.5 inch was intentional because I've heard that quieting down 3 inch exhaust is nearly impossible. ------------- Scott Eklund Webmaster |
Posted By: Nuggets
Date Posted: 19-July-2017 at 7:56AM
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Its not back pressure! I hate this term......you are SO WRONG when you say back pressure.....or lack of etc etc You want as close to ZERO back pressure as possible. What you want in an exhaust is HIGH VELOCITY, this allows gas to escape quickly. This is not back pressure, has never been and will never be. It is a case of keeping exhaust gasses as hot as possible Its why if you run a full 3" system on a 289 it'll run worse and feel more gutless than a 289 on a twin 1.5" system. What you're doing is lowering gas velocity, in turn this can create back pressure as the gas slows down so much that you have a backup right at the end. Run whatever the hell you want with regards to cats, no cats, mufflers.......just keep the pipe size in line with the engines requirements. If you create back pressure you harm performance. End of story. ------------- Barnaby 429 powered 73 Stripper.....no comfort, just noise! |
Posted By: 72GTS351CJ
Date Posted: 19-July-2017 at 9:06AM
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Take a breath and calm down. It a friendly forum. ------------- 72GTS Clint Eastwood Special |
Posted By: Nuggets
Date Posted: 19-July-2017 at 9:32AM
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As far as I'm concerned there was nothing unfriendly about my post.....purely informative and not sugar coated. When we design exhausts in an engineering environment we design mufflers, cats, bends and the entirety of the system to have as close to zero back pressure as possible whilst in keeping with the given constraints both dimensionally and budget wise. ------------- Barnaby 429 powered 73 Stripper.....no comfort, just noise! |
Posted By: fordpower
Date Posted: 19-July-2017 at 9:35AM
| Could be a difference in meaning is all. I run only my cats. I like the sound so have a lot of others. I just wondered if by not running mufflers I create the velocity problem |
Posted By: Nuggets
Date Posted: 19-July-2017 at 9:54AM
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Back pressure in an exhaust sense is essentially a restriction, thats its only definition. Not what you want on any car. Yes you potentially create a velocity problem, will you notice it? Probably not. Its hardly a performance car you're toying with, if you enjoy the noise just do it ------------- Barnaby 429 powered 73 Stripper.....no comfort, just noise! |
Posted By: Big Bird
Date Posted: 19-July-2017 at 10:27AM
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You need to find a balance. Exhaust that's overly restrictive hurts performance, but enormous pipes cause the exhaust gasses to move too slowly, which reduces scavenging and forces the engine to "push" to get the exhaust gasses out. If the engine is a stock engine with a factory tune, EGR will not function correctly with no back pressure, for example. On a non-stock setup, keeping the exhaust moving at proper speed will help scavenging and increase intake charge flow. ------------- "What we do in full frontal view, is more honest than your cleaned-up mind." Randy 1979 T-Bird 2005 F-150 STX RCSB 4.6, 3.55 LSD How the Heck does a REGULAR CAB SHORTBED weigh over 5200 pounds? |
Posted By: Nuggets
Date Posted: 19-July-2017 at 10:44AM
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You have to compromise. However.....given all design restrictions in a full under car system you will never eliminate all back pressure anyway so the EGR should always function. I cant remember the figures on the GT3-R exhaust or stock W12 system on the Continental but even with the optimum routing you still get it and thats with super high flowing cats, mufflers and pipework routed in such a way to minimise kinks as well as being of optimum size. The only way is to essentially run it like a drag car with zoomie headers, but given this is a full system car having the positive or negative pressure valve in the system it should not make a difference to its operation. They want deleting anyway. Horrid things.
------------- Barnaby 429 powered 73 Stripper.....no comfort, just noise! |
Posted By: lynchster
Date Posted: 19-July-2017 at 1:42PM
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[QUOTE=Nuggets] Since you seem to be an expert on the subject............ I'm guessing that having my manifolds with four or five feet of pipe is not optimal. ------------- Chuck 72 Gran Torino Sport 13 Taurus SHO "Mr Pig" |
Posted By: 72FordGTS
Date Posted: 19-July-2017 at 3:07PM
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The modern hi-flow cats don't really seem to have much restriction. We've come a long way from the old restrictive 1970's cats. My brother bought a set from a speed shop for one of his cars. It did muffle the sound slightly, but the exhaust also stinks way less than a car without cats. I'd stick with mufflers, just stick to small ones for more sound (if that's what you want). ------------- Vince 1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car GTS.org Admin |
Posted By: Nuggets
Date Posted: 19-July-2017 at 10:55PM
Probably not. But that's how I run too. I like the sound and look of true duals....could I gain more with an X or H set up. Yes. Do I want to. No? You have to weigh up, cost of making your exhaust, sound quality which is always subjective and performance. Could you gain something with the tuning of the system through pipe sizing and bend radius etc. Yes. Would it be worth it. Doubt it. Exhaust tubing and optimisation is only generally worth it on high performance motors or where you're being stifled by emissions to start with so the tuning of the system post cat becomes even more critical in order to keep power high. It's how a Bentley still makes 500+ hp with pre and post cats, giant mufflers and emissions regs. ------------- Barnaby 429 powered 73 Stripper.....no comfort, just noise! |
lynchster wrote:Posted By: Don V.
Date Posted: 25-July-2017 at 6:50AM
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When it comes to IC engines an interesting debate is what term is more misused and misunderstood, back pressure or torque? The basic analogy might be a syphon hose. What happens when a syphon hose loses back pressure? Flow stops. An IC engine is defined as an air pump and this is basic fluid dynamics. BTW, fluid is not the same as liquid in fluid dynamics.
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Posted By: aquartlow
Date Posted: 25-July-2017 at 9:08AM
Not trying to be an ass here, but how does a top fuel dragster/funny car make 10K horsepower with just zoomie headers if back pressure is absolutely necessary for an IC engine to run well. In another IC example I have also seen numerous turbo diesel engines with little more than a 18" piece of 4" pipe for an exhaust ran up through the hood and those ran "real" well. Please explain. ------------- www.supermotors.net/22468 Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires. No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t. Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone. |
Posted By: californiajohnny
Date Posted: 25-July-2017 at 12:18PM
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slight amount of back pressure works better on most street engines. todd, to answer your question about the top fuel engines... they breath by help of the big belt driven blower!   ------------- JOHN 74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE 74 VETTE CUSTOM 90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED 77 CELICA CUSTOM 75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED 79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED 75 VEGA V6 5 SPD 70 CHEV C10 P/U 68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION |
Posted By: aquartlow
Date Posted: 25-July-2017 at 12:51PM
Definitely agree about street engines liking a bit of back pressure and the TF cars with blowers, but I also see pulling trucks with zoomies through the hood and they run tunnel rams with 2-4's(and they run pretty "fair"  ). It seems on a street car engine, the exhaust system doesn't necessarily need to introduce back pressure to help the engine run better, but rather be tuned to some extent to help keep exhaust pulse velocities up so the exhaust flow itself will help or aid in scavenging or pulling the exhaust volume before it cools enough to slow down the exhaust pulse(which would equal back pressure). I believe exhaust back pressure, unto itself, is generally thought of as a bad thing for performance and/or efficiency. ------------- www.supermotors.net/22468 Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires. No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t. Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone. |
Posted By: californiajohnny
Date Posted: 25-July-2017 at 1:12PM
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very true! ------------- JOHN 74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE 74 VETTE CUSTOM 90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED 77 CELICA CUSTOM 75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED 79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED 75 VEGA V6 5 SPD 70 CHEV C10 P/U 68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION |
Posted By: aquartlow
Date Posted: 25-July-2017 at 1:26PM
I kinda figured it had to be, it was on the back of a Cracker Jack box  . Unfortunately, I will now be sued for plagiarism. On a lighter note: those caramel covered peanuts are the bomb and the little book of tattoos inside the box was a bonus , they kept me busy for a while . ------------- www.supermotors.net/22468 Yeah, It's a Hybrid...It burns gas and tires. No matter how good she looks, somebody, somewhere, is tired of her sh*t. Beauty is skin deep, ugliness goes clear to the bone. |
Posted By: Rockatansky
Date Posted: 25-July-2017 at 1:35PM
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https://youtu.be/IwQGinCmkX0?t=3m" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/IwQGinCmkX0?t=3m ------------- 72 GT Ute |
Posted By: Don V.
Date Posted: 25-July-2017 at 3:46PM
I don't think you're being an ass at all. It's a great question. I don't have the time right now to answer your question but I will quickly address Zoomies. First and foremost, zoomies are cool. A top fueler engine is designed for zoomies. I've seen more people use zoomies and destroy their heads than I've seen people successfully use them. Zoomies aren't something the average garage mechanic should be screwing with. Back pressure is an important engine design parameter that involves the entire engine. It's often seen as an exhaust only parameter by a lot of people so they don't consider the effects inside of the engine from whatever they are doing with an exhaust. A lot of engines have been detrimentally effected because of this. For example, CATS require specific exhaust temperatures to perform their designed emission function. People remove CATS and alter their exhaust system but that doesn't change the engines design parameters like exhaust temperature. There is a measure of adaptability designed in to an engine but when the optimum performance requirements of an exhaust system exceed the engines adaptability to deliver the demanded performance requirement either performance is reduced, more often then not because of insufficient exhaust velocity, or money has been wasted on something with an engine that can't deliver the necessary performance to meet the exhaust systems potential. This example has more to do with modern engines than the engines that came in the cars that are the topic of this website.
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Posted By: MrSmog
Date Posted: 25-July-2017 at 4:38PM
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I love when engineers talk, you know, the ones that bury oil filters behind things so you remove all flesh on your hand gettin it out, require truck cab removal to work on a engine and all sorts of other glorious things. I recall a whole forum of engineers told me I couldn't swap a inboard jet drive to a bracketed outboard (I did it easily), another half dozen told me I couldn't swap a v10 in place of a 318 without massive frame damage/suspension failure ( I did it easily), and a few other things they said was impossible. Some people over think things. To the original poster, many people run cats with no mufflers, you'll be fine. As for the zoomies destroy engines, tell that to all the rat rod/street rod guys who run them and have run them for years with no ill effects. |
Posted By: fordpower
Date Posted: 26-July-2017 at 12:57AM
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Who would have though my question would make such a topic. All I know is remove all smog s plug the egr valve and the car ran worse. Gas millage went down car vapor locked seemed t less power. Everyone had said get rid of all that sh*t it will run 100% better wrong. |
Posted By: Don V.
Date Posted: 26-July-2017 at 3:01AM
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I'd like to know what forum of engineers told you this and the circumstances of your question. Attitude can make a difference too. Maybe the information you got was about something other than your question? If you want to blame engineers for putting 10 pounds in a five pound bag, feel free too. It's really ignorant but if you need someone to blame. . . . I decided to leave the NHRA rules about top fuel cars and the time they get between races used to rebuild the engine out of my last response. What does anyone know about the effect of zoomies when the engine they are using has a quarter mile lifetime? The blocks? Maybe a 3 mile lifetime. This is from Jim Thorton who the NHRA recognizes as the inventor of the funny car. Paraphrased, "Nitro burning cars are no different from any other car when evaluating exhaust. Power is forfeited with straight pipes but the cars run so rich headers become a pipe bomb halfway down the track. Choosing between the advantage of headers or nitro with straight pipes didn't take a lot of thought. There's also no doubt straight pipes are the better crowd pleaser." Mixing street cars and track cars about zoomies? OK I guess? The effect of zoomies on engine life and power I thought was pretty well understood since the 50's. Typically the same engine on a dyno with both zoomies and tuned headers creates more power with headers. It didn't take much searching of hot rod websites to verify this. The earliest versions of the Merlin engine in the P-51 Mustang engine is a good place to start to learn about the effect zoomies have on engine life. There's not much to compare between an engine designed to operate at ground level to 25,000+ feet but it is a good place to start. On the street, the effect zoomies have on engine life I thought was pretty much taken for granted. On the street zoomies are about some combination of looks and sound and have little to do with performance. The few places where you might get away with running zoomies legally on the street usually at least require zoomie baffles. I don't know this for sure but I imagine true, straight pipe zoomies are pretty rare on the street. Legally anyways. If anyone wants to limit back pressure to the purvue of exhaust then I agree, back pressure restricts exhaust potential. If anyone wants to consider the exhaust as part of the balance of the entire system then the answer begins to look a bit different. I would like an explanation though of why of the two common header designs, restriction and velocity, velocity is the better performer? Restrictions increase back pressure in the exhaust system so why are designs aimed at restriction reduction the poorer performer? Don V. |
Posted By: fordpower
Date Posted: 26-July-2017 at 3:21AM
| Please do. |
Posted By: Don V.
Date Posted: 26-July-2017 at 3:23AM
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Posted By: Rockatansky
Date Posted: 26-July-2017 at 3:47AM
I've seen that response here several times fairly recently, sometimes w/o regard to inspection regs and certainly with no plan to recalibrate the tune after removing 'all that sh*t' FWIW the laws regarding emissions systems are still alive, and the board here needs to be respected concerning careless shooting off at the keyboard with 'get rid of all that sh*t it' replies ======================= to the OP, not sure if you've seen my comments regarding reduced ~backpressure~ for a daily street driven car but I've been shocked at the difference between a 2>1 single pipe to the rear bumper and a simple dual dumping before the rear axle. night and day would be an understatement it was more like an equatorial eclipse. the gas pedal went from a very sensitive throttle control to an old beat up work boot stuck in a bucket of 1/2 cured concrete. a previously nimble 350-2bbl lost all it's off idle finesse and required a significant amount of throttle angle just to get out of it's own way it was not a Win Win Win ------------- 72 GT Ute |
Posted By: stanman
Date Posted: 26-July-2017 at 4:08AM
| Rock.....so going from single to dual exhaust made performance worse? |
Posted By: Rockatansky
Date Posted: 26-July-2017 at 4:41AM
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pretty much that sums it up. as a daily driver 350-2bbl there was nothing to gain in the mid or on the top end that it didn't already do as a single exhaust. throttle response and driveability were in the toilet compared to before the exhaust system 'upgrade' tailpipes would've probably helped get some back but those benders are proud of their work and demand to be paid accordingly, at that time an appointment with the fancy pipe machine wasn't in the budget the exhaust system is certainly a deal maker / breaker for sure ------------- 72 GT Ute |
Posted By: fordpower
Date Posted: 26-July-2017 at 5:12AM
| I in know way am advising removing smog or emission system. In NY car is old enough that it makes no difference though. My exhaust system uses the cats because 15yrs ago they could not legally remove them. |
Posted By: MrSmog
Date Posted: 26-July-2017 at 5:28AM
my reply was in my own personal experience with the engineer types online, the reply to don who said zoomies destroy cylinder heads and the OP's question above. There is no reason a properly sized dual exhaust with just cats should hurt performance, in fact it should help. The same could be said for a stock 350 2bbl, can't imagine a set of properly run 2" duals on that engine would do anything but good. I think some people read too much of others opinions and then second guess themselves. I am about to put a set of 2" duals with 2.5" mufflers/tailpipes on my blue stock 302 car, I'll report back just how badly it runs, loses power and mpg afterwards. I have put duals on just about every V8 powered vehicle I had had for almost 30 years now, never had anything but positive results from it. Power always went up, mpg always went up if drove normally and the only negative I can think of is there was never enough tunnels to go through to hear it when I stomped on it. |
Posted By: Rockatansky
Date Posted: 26-July-2017 at 5:40AM
to the original ? those old cats are  to any kind of performance / efficiency, today we have high flow cats that even allow a really decent exhaust note through them. a full system to the back bumper w/o some type of muffler or resonator might be too loud for your taste------------- 72 GT Ute |
Posted By: Big Bird
Date Posted: 26-July-2017 at 5:44AM
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My cats are still in place, but the insides "fell out" probably 14-16 years ago. I can't imagine having a big expansion chamber at the start of the exhaust is good for exhaust velocity or flow. However, they were still looking for converters on 1979 cars when I put it together. ------------- "What we do in full frontal view, is more honest than your cleaned-up mind." Randy 1979 T-Bird 2005 F-150 STX RCSB 4.6, 3.55 LSD How the Heck does a REGULAR CAB SHORTBED weigh over 5200 pounds? |
Posted By: Don V.
Date Posted: 26-July-2017 at 6:34AM
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Rockatansky, If I gave anyone the impression that removing anything to do with emissions was a good idea or advisable I'm not. As far as the quote of mine you used, it was a response to comments from Smog that were about mounting engines which was part of his trashing of engineers. It had nothing to do with emissions. Mr. Smog, I never said using zoomies will destroy an engine. The fact that zoomies "CAN" destroy heads or engines is not new or groundbreaking information. They have a long, documented history starting with burning valves. I also don't think zoomies shortening engine life is new or groundbreaking information. I don't equate shortening engine life with destroying an engine because there are numerous engine modifications that will shorten engine life. A common one I see is building a high performance, tight tolerance engine for the street. Tight tolerance engines are not for stop and go traffic and ideally they require a start up routine to avoid cold starts. Heck, cold starts aren't good for any engine let alone tight, or close tolerance engines. My advice was that zoomies are not for the average garage mechanic. Just properly figuring optimum tip angle involves some intensive math. Most just weld up their idea of cool and that's not a good idea. Big Bird's comment raises a good point. There are a lot of people with more money than sense so why aren't they running 8" exhaust pipe or 3" x 12" tube? That would sure mitigate any exhaust back pressure issues.
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Posted By: MrSmog
Date Posted: 26-July-2017 at 7:27AM
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I know guys who have had those open zoomie headers on their street rods goin on 20+ years, still the same engine, still runnin good. Go tell them they are killin their heads and see what kind of response you get. I'm sure they lead to more wear then a proper exhaust system, but how much so probably has way too many variables to give an exact number. The OP to this thread has no intention of puttin those goofy headers on his car, so it's really just a bunch of hot air gettin blown around for nothin, my own included. as far as trashin engineers, It wasn't really meant that way, just sayin even they do some things that seem questionable to us common people. I'm sure they are all smart folks, but sometimes you can over think things way too much and overlook simple solutions or alternatives. I have done a lot of oddball things in regards to boats, cars and trucks over the years. Not so much because I want to be a pioneer or anything, but more out of necessity or the hot rodder in me. Almost always I was met with the nay sayers who would spout off all this technical mumbo jumbo of why it wouldn't work, or would implode unexpectedly because it was never designed that way. So far, so good by usin good ole common sense and my own "backyard engineerin". If you felt I personally insulted you in any way, I apologize. If I can make it up to the pure stock drags this year in Mich, I'll buy you lunch and tell you a few lawyer jokes.  |
Posted By: Rockatansky
Date Posted: 26-July-2017 at 11:31AM
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we're all fine as far as i know, my comment wasn't aimed at anybody in particular but as i said I'm pretty sure the blanket 'rip that crap off' advice does come out quite frequently and we need to be careful. i should've went on further as i was thinking at the moment that it's easy enough to specify usage being 'for off road use' or 'educational purposes' that there's no reason to risk attracting unwanted attention.
for that matter they already are going outside intended use of statute and threatening off road vehicles sheesh and don't get me started on engineers LOL they are a special bunch. if the part number doesn't match exactly it won't work. long story short there was a guy at work that insisted the tube in a radiator is called a jacket water because that's what the print called it, 'jacket, water' jacket water my 
i can imagine a Steve Austin 3:16 beer over the head? who said zoomies? i still have the set i had on my 72  ------------- 72 GT Ute |
Posted By: fordpower
Date Posted: 26-July-2017 at 12:49PM
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rock you sort of ans my org question. My garage said my cats are plugged causing my problems.He said they are to hot at intake and to cold at exhaust so should I do away with and go with mufflers. |
Posted By: Big Bird
Date Posted: 26-July-2017 at 1:42PM
------------- "What we do in full frontal view, is more honest than your cleaned-up mind." Randy 1979 T-Bird 2005 F-150 STX RCSB 4.6, 3.55 LSD How the Heck does a REGULAR CAB SHORTBED weigh over 5200 pounds? |
Posted By: Don V.
Date Posted: 26-July-2017 at 2:07PM
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How do you get a zoomie that's not really a zoomie? You buy a header from a company that puts the word zoomie on some header lines and buyers can say they have zoomies. Rock, the dragster you posted is an example of zoomies. One tuned straight pipe per cylinder pointing down and then up. They weren't about looks or sound. They were\are functional. They create a lot of down force that helps counteract both torque twist and front end lift. Top fuelers today have so much power zoomies are factored in to suspension and chassis design. This is information that can be found on the internet and not from anyone referring to jacket water.  Are pipes that don't turn up zoomies? According to the old timers no but they became popular when zoomies made it to the street where the upturn wasn't appreciated by the cars to your right and left. FWIW and again from the old timers, the term zoomie was slang in the nuke industry for the unseen energy emitted from radioactive materials. Hot rodders co-opted the term. zoomies: https://www.vividracing.com/catalog/kooks-stainless-steel-pro-mod-inch-two-bend-zoomie-kit-p-151021036.html" rel="nofollow - https://www.vividracing.com/catalog/kooks-stainless-steel-pro-mod-inch-two-bend-zoomie-kit-p-151021036.html Put a collector on the end of straight pipes and you've got a header which is not a zoomie. I'm not interested with arguing this with anyone but when I refer to a zoomie I'm talking about a single, stand alone straight pipe per cylinder. Smog, I appreciate the clarification. Ford power, sorry about your post getting hijacked but it seems your answer is in here. My 2 cents, go for it. If you need to go back to using mufflers there's nothing in your plan to prevent you from adding them if there turns out to be a reason to. The effect a muffler has on emissions is minimal.
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Posted By: Don V.
Date Posted: 26-July-2017 at 2:17PM
"Misuse of laws/expansion beyond mandate should be a criminal offense, punishable by a swift kick in the crotch on Primetime national TV, administered by the kicker from the previous year's Super Bowl champions.  "Is this an updated version of "Get off my lawn," "Grumpy old man," or both?
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Posted By: MrSmog
Date Posted: 26-July-2017 at 2:22PM
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ford power, if your new cats don't have the sound you like, try a set of glasspacks after the cats. This is my cheap hi-po exhaust on anything I have with cats, the cats take enough starch out of the exhaust note that the glasspacks aren't cackly and obnoxious, has a nice deep mellow sound that really comes alive when ya tromp on it. |
Posted By: Rockatansky
Date Posted: 26-July-2017 at 6:07PM
still can't AFAIK? but yeah hot in / cold out = ================ street zoomies ... the print says zoomie, remote mount w/extension Hahaha Y'all ain't got no zoomies? local cruise night https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vebTpEQbMeo" rel="nofollow -
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Posted By: Don V.
Date Posted: 27-July-2017 at 1:33AM
Posted By: fordpower Date Posted: 27-July-2017 at 1:58AM
Posted By: Don V. Date Posted: 27-July-2017 at 2:22AM
Posted By: fordpower Date Posted: 27-July-2017 at 3:58AM
Posted By: Rockatansky Date Posted: 27-July-2017 at 5:54AM
Posted By: fordpower Date Posted: 27-July-2017 at 7:03AM
Posted By: Big Bird Date Posted: 27-July-2017 at 9:20AM
Posted By: Big Bird Date Posted: 27-July-2017 at 9:32AM
Posted By: stanman Date Posted: 27-July-2017 at 10:26AM
Posted By: Big Bird Date Posted: 27-July-2017 at 10:50AM
Posted By: stanman Date Posted: 27-July-2017 at 12:30PM
Posted By: Don V. Date Posted: 27-July-2017 at 12:43PM
Posted By: Don V. Date Posted: 27-July-2017 at 12:47PM
Posted By: Don V. Date Posted: 27-July-2017 at 12:50PM
Posted By: Rockatansky Date Posted: 27-July-2017 at 2:08PM
Posted By: Don V. Date Posted: 27-July-2017 at 2:22PM
Posted By: fordpower Date Posted: 22-August-2017 at 10:16AM
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