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Could use some diagnostics help

Printed From: The Ford Torino Page
Category: Powertrain Specific Forum
Forum Name: 335 Series Engine Forum
Forum Description: 351C, 351M and 400 engines
URL: https://forum.grantorinosport.org/forum_posts.asp?TID=20345
Printed Date: 03-December-2022 at 12:09AM
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.05 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Could use some diagnostics help
Posted By: lynchster
Subject: Could use some diagnostics help
Date Posted: 28-August-2022 at 7:43AM
Lots of specifics

I've finally gotten the car out for a few bug runs and out of the gate it ran really well. The first two were under 20 miles(flawless), a third about 40 miles (hard start when warmed up), a fourth maybe three miles (sputtering badly).

Up until the third run it had nothing but av gas from the local airport in it. I stopped at a local station and added half a tank of non-ethanol 90 to a quarter tank of av gas. So far so good other than a hard start.
The fourth time (I had burned off half a tank by then) it was sputtering so badly I turned around and parked it. I added a bottle of dry gas (water?) and 4 gal of av gas. Not driven since but no improvement.

Engine specifics (nothing radical)
Block: 72 351C, .030, decked, studded, balanced rotating assy
Heads: 70 351C, closed chamber, shaved, rocker studs, 10.3:1 compression 
Cam: Howards (roller) 233215-10 Lift .571/.577  Dur .269/.277 
         110 Lobe Center, 106 Intake Center
Intake: Edelbrock 351F (told by Edelbrock not worth replacing with latest 
            version). 
Carb: 750 Edelbrock vac secondaries
Ignition: Recurved Duraspark II dist., Factory Duraspark (blue), 8.5 wires,
              Stock Motorcraft plugs .44 gap 
              I did attach the 12V start bypass and ignition start retard to the 
              solenoid.
Exhaust: stock manifolds, Pipes cut off at mufflers (temporary)

Compression #'s 174, 177, 175, 175, 174, 174, 175, 179
Vacuum: 15 psi relatively steady it was before but I had to add 1/2 a turn to
              each side to get it there again
Plugs: Clean / reddish 
Oil and coolant are good 

Now that that's out of the way.

1. I'm thinking about disconnecting the spark retard wire from the solenoid. 
    I read it was for easier starting but I'm thinking it's making worse with the
    compression and the heat.
2. Is 15 psi vacuum a good number for this cam? I was thinking 16-17 and 
    that maybe there's a leak at the manifold?
3. The fuel pump is a mechanical replacement that has done more sitting 
    than running in the four years it's been built. Weak diaphragm?  
    I've been considering a regulator since these Edelbrock's are rather
    insistent on 5 1/2 psi. 

I'd appreciate any input. 
Thanks
   
 


-------------
Chuck
72 Gran Torino Sport
08 Taurus (Maytag)
03 Dakota (Rusty)



Replies:
Posted By: Rockatansky
Date Posted: 28-August-2022 at 7:49AM
back story, how long did it sit with what in the tank?

i like a see through filter between the metal fuel line off the frame and the fuel pump,

1 piece plastic not that 17 piece glass fire starter pos


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72 GT Ute
   


Posted By: lynchster
Date Posted: 28-August-2022 at 8:25AM
Originally posted by Rockatansky Rockatansky wrote:

back story, how long did it sit with what in the tank?

i like a see through filter between the metal fuel line off the frame and the fuel pump,

1 piece plastic not that 17 piece glass fire starter pos

Everything is new including the fuel tank. Before installing the fuel tank I was using a 2 gal gas can in the trunk. LOL

It actually had one of those 17 piece glass fire starters on the front at the pump when I bought it. Shocked 
I'm not against another filter. It current has an inline at the front of the carb.


-------------
Chuck
72 Gran Torino Sport
08 Taurus (Maytag)
03 Dakota (Rusty)


Posted By: Rockatansky
Date Posted: 28-August-2022 at 9:34AM
at this point i'd open the top of the carb and have a look in the bowl, see if it's collecting or growing anything.
some carbs take a dislike to whatever's in the fuel and the finish on the alloy gets funky.

take a peek


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72 GT Ute
   


Posted By: 72 RS 351
Date Posted: 28-August-2022 at 9:48AM
I'd wonder about the condition of the plugs and plug wires, the actual fuel pressure, and the coil wiring plus ballast resistor. Hopefully it's not about old gas or the affects of it.


From curiosity, what duration is that cam also, the 0.050" specs? I like the smaller centerline figures, those sound good for a hot engine. Also what intake is on it exactly, what does 351F mean?


-------------
Don
73 Ranchero Sport "72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000rpm 351-4V &4R70W
73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V 3.70 gears for sale later.
92 Lincoln Mark VII SE, OBDII 347/4R70W


Posted By: lynchster
Date Posted: 28-August-2022 at 11:17AM
Originally posted by 72 RS 351 72 RS 351 wrote:

I'd wonder about the condition of the plugs and plug wires, the actual fuel pressure, and the coil wiring plus ballast resistor. Hopefully it's not about old gas or the affects of it.

Plugs and wires are new. Plugs looked good and double checked the gaps while they were out.
Entire fuel system including the tank is new.
I didn't use a ballast resistor I went with the factory resistor wire in the harness.



-------------
Chuck
72 Gran Torino Sport
08 Taurus (Maytag)
03 Dakota (Rusty)


Posted By: lynchster
Date Posted: 28-August-2022 at 11:26AM
Originally posted by 72 RS 351 72 RS 351 wrote:

From curiosity, what duration is that cam also, the 0.050" specs? I like the smaller centerline figures, those sound good for a hot engine. Also what intake is on it exactly, what does 351F mean?



I actually got to talk with one of the people from Edelbrock that was trying to promote in house production of 4V heads and intakes. The actual intake is an F351. He pulled up a promotional flyer from 1972. It's an old version of their current dual plane intake. He suggested keeping this one the new one wasn't going to deliver much improvement.
 



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Chuck
72 Gran Torino Sport
08 Taurus (Maytag)
03 Dakota (Rusty)


Posted By: handsofstone
Date Posted: 28-August-2022 at 12:25PM
On the hard starting when hot, be sure your starter cable from the solenoid is tucked alongside the oil pan rail and insulated. That was an issue I dealt with early on with mine.  


Posted By: 78FordLtd2
Date Posted: 28-August-2022 at 1:49PM
It's either fuel or spark that's caysung your proplem. Take the top off the carb and see what's inside. Check your fuel pressure too. Also look at the routing of your fuel lines too. Could be vapor lock or fuel boiling out of the carb or in the line itself. 


Posted By: hogfiddles
Date Posted: 28-August-2022 at 1:53PM
My ‘76 had a ‘difficult to start, when warmed up good’ condition... that manifested itself as if the batter were almost dead— would barely turn over, and sometimes I’d have to wait an hour.

Turned out to be a starter issue.... got a new low profile starter and never had another issue


-------------
1973 Gran Torino Sport - Q code “Q-Clone” project-on-hold
1972 Gran Torino Sport - Q code new project
1972 Gran Torino - parts
1969 Torino GT - M code
95+/- mid-80's Yamaha XJ-Series (10 trophies)


Posted By: pyntre
Date Posted: 28-August-2022 at 2:14PM
I can’t offer you any more advice than has already been given but I would really love a video of the engine running when you get the problems ironed out !
I have that same roller cam picked out for our 400 build and would sure like to hear the idle sound on that !!!!!!! 
Does it move the car pretty well out of the gate ?



Posted By: Rockatansky
Date Posted: 28-August-2022 at 2:16PM
this hard to start hot issue reminds of an Old Mechanic, he said "change the neg battery cable"

he was right


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72 GT Ute
   


Posted By: lynchster
Date Posted: 28-August-2022 at 2:37PM
I have new ground cables with three ground points. 
One starts at the clutch shield to the point in the frame where the battery ground cable attaches. I just ran another 4 guage wire from the front of the block to the terminal. Itvmaybe over kill but an electrician buddy of mine says you can never have too many.
I did disconnect the white start timing retard wire from the solenoid. If it does the trick I may swap to a newer PGMR starter.

I have to get this sputtering under control. It was after I put the gas in it from the station but I had 40 miles on it before it acted up the next day. I thought the dry gas and other gas might cure it.

The 15 psi of vacuum is concerning but it did run well. 


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Chuck
72 Gran Torino Sport
08 Taurus (Maytag)
03 Dakota (Rusty)


Posted By: 72 RS 351
Date Posted: 28-August-2022 at 2:51PM
The 15 inches of vacuum isn't a big concern, the camshaft at 217/225 degrees isn't really that big at all. It sounds like the basic wiring is very good, and I'd concentrate on the fuel to and from the carburetor. Night,


-------------
Don
73 Ranchero Sport "72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000rpm 351-4V &4R70W
73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V 3.70 gears for sale later.
92 Lincoln Mark VII SE, OBDII 347/4R70W


Posted By: lynchster
Date Posted: 28-August-2022 at 3:01PM
Originally posted by 72 RS 351 72 RS 351 wrote:

The 15 inches of vacuum isn't a big concern, the camshaft at 217/225 degrees isn't really that big at all. It sounds like the basic wiring is very good, and I'd concentrate on the fuel to and from the carburetor. Night,
I know right? I was thinking it should be good for 16 - 17 psi but it's not my area of expertise. The overall results are about what I expected compared to the factory CJ cam. 👍
The issue is rather sudden. Maybe I need more than 4 gallons of new fuel and dry gas. Maybe there's an intake leak?


-------------
Chuck
72 Gran Torino Sport
08 Taurus (Maytag)
03 Dakota (Rusty)


Posted By: mkshelton
Date Posted: 28-August-2022 at 4:20PM
Was the rough running at idle or driving? 

-------------
"Sometimes I wonder if I'm actually UNinventing the wheel"


Posted By: lynchster
Date Posted: 29-August-2022 at 9:59AM
I might have the hard start when warm fixed. Either the extra 4 guage ground wire or disconnecting the start retard feature seems to have done the trick.

The sputtering remains. Noticed it's mild when not fully warmed up but horrible fully warm. Could be bad gas? I do have a 1 inch spacer under the carb and those first runs were damn near flawless. 


-------------
Chuck
72 Gran Torino Sport
08 Taurus (Maytag)
03 Dakota (Rusty)


Posted By: Rockatansky
Date Posted: 29-August-2022 at 1:55PM
neg bat cable should go directly to the block, not any brackets or accessory mounts,
OEM it went to the nearest motor mount bolt IIRC?

then if you need to ground the body, back of the head to the firewall

the frame is a poor ground base with all the body mounts, they're actually called isolators!


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72 GT Ute
   


Posted By: handsofstone
Date Posted: 30-August-2022 at 2:43PM
Negative cable on both my cars went to the block near the alternator then to the frame with the braided strap. Body from rear of right head. 


Posted By: qcode72
Date Posted: 31-August-2022 at 1:40PM
My carter afb 750 cmf,would stutter when cruising.Ifound the metering rods  bent.I replaced with new Holley 1850. solved the problem. Car needed more than 5 gallon in tank. AV gas does not have same additives as non-ethanol pump gas.



Posted By: lynchster
Date Posted: 03-September-2022 at 8:34AM
I think removing the white wire from the solenoid corrected the hard start when warm.

I've added a second bottle of dry gas (heet) to 8 gallons of gas (4 new). If the gas were any dryer the Torino would be requesting an olive. Still misfires bad at 3500 ish cold, 2500 warm but I do notice it at 1500.

Tested the coil cold, hot, and against the coil I had in it before cold 

Original
Primary. 1.8 ohms
Secondary.  8.69 ohms 

Vertex
Primary cold 1.0 ohms / hot  1.4 ohms
Secondary  cold  6.8 ohms / hot 7.16 ohms

To me that seems to check out ok but I'm more of a mechanically inclined bodyman. 
I also put a vacuum gauge on it and it is steady over 20 hg over idle.
Learning but I wish I were a better diagnostisian. 
 


-------------
Chuck
72 Gran Torino Sport
08 Taurus (Maytag)
03 Dakota (Rusty)


Posted By: lynchster
Date Posted: 03-September-2022 at 8:36AM
Originally posted by qcode72 qcode72 wrote:

My carter afb 750 cmf,would stutter when cruising.Ifound the metering rods  bent.I replaced with new Holley 1850. solved the problem. Car needed more than 5 gallon in tank. AV gas does not have same additives as non-ethanol pump gas.


Not out of the question but I hope I didn't manage to bend mine after 80 miles.


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Chuck
72 Gran Torino Sport
08 Taurus (Maytag)
03 Dakota (Rusty)


Posted By: Rockatansky
Date Posted: 03-September-2022 at 10:09AM
the white wire ... i thought the red and white wire were for ignition power during crank and run?

disconnecting either would cause hard starting or fail to run?

is it possible you're running off the crank wire overheating the coil?




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72 GT Ute
   


Posted By: lynchster
Date Posted: 03-September-2022 at 10:52AM
I'm using the factory pink resistor wire for the coil (no ballast).
The brown wire to the solenoid is to provide 12V to the start circuit. Operates at 8V?
The white wire to the solenoid was to retard the timing at start to make it easier on the starter. Seem to make it too hard to turn over my engine when warm.
I also read most people go with the red wire 12V and a ballast and don't bother with the white or brown wires at all.
That's as best I recollect from researching before the conversion.

After moving on from the coil I tested the vacuum advance canister to find it won't hold a vacuum. There's a vacuum leak!  It's connected to the timed port. I disconnected it and blocked it with a vacuum gauge. The port works as it's designed but it didn't cure the misfire.
A buddy offered up a distributor from a 460 to test with but I'm into learning diagnostics now 



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Chuck
72 Gran Torino Sport
08 Taurus (Maytag)
03 Dakota (Rusty)


Posted By: californiajohnny
Date Posted: 03-September-2022 at 10:53AM
 white w/red stripe is 12v cranking iirc and red is keyed power... maybe the control module is failing???

-------------
JOHN
74 GRAN TORINO S&H CLONE
74 VETTE CUSTOM
90 S10 BLAZER 4X4 LIFTED
77 CELICA CUSTOM
75 V8 MONZA SUPERCHARGED
79 COURIER VERT. SLAMMED
75 VEGA V6 5 SPD
70 CHEV C10 P/U
68 MUSTANG FB CONVERSION


Posted By: lynchster
Date Posted: 03-September-2022 at 10:56AM
Originally posted by californiajohnny californiajohnny wrote:

 white w/red stripe is 12v cranking iirc and red is keyed power... maybe the control module is failing???

Possible too? I always thought the modules worked or didn't with no in between. 
Everything is new but I apparently have a bad cannister on the distributor regardless.
Wire colors for the Duraspark might be subjective since I went with a Painless harness?


-------------
Chuck
72 Gran Torino Sport
08 Taurus (Maytag)
03 Dakota (Rusty)


Posted By: lynchster
Date Posted: 03-September-2022 at 11:04AM





-------------
Chuck
72 Gran Torino Sport
08 Taurus (Maytag)
03 Dakota (Rusty)


Posted By: handsofstone
Date Posted: 03-September-2022 at 2:24PM
Nice picture.  LOL


Posted By: Rockatansky
Date Posted: 03-September-2022 at 3:02PM


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72 GT Ute
   


Posted By: lynchster
Date Posted: 03-September-2022 at 5:36PM
To simply things a bit because I'm simple here is the wiring diagram I used for reference. 



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Chuck
72 Gran Torino Sport
08 Taurus (Maytag)
03 Dakota (Rusty)


Posted By: lynchster
Date Posted: 03-September-2022 at 6:18PM
I have read about the issues of mismatching coils with ignition systems. I hope I don't have to cut this wire harness open again. I wrapped it like I meant it. Stern Smile

Instead of a ballast I used the factory resistor wire. With just the key on it reads just over 3V. I should check that while running.
I believe I went with a coil for a 76 Gran Torino. I don't remember my previous 76 having an external ballast resistor but this coil does call for use of an external ballast. I assumed my lack of a ballast would be ok since the original points coil called for either a resistance wire or external ballast.  
That said the resistance values of the two coils are different with the older one having higher primary and secondary resistance. 
Would swapping back to the original coil make sense? I'd have to cut off the "horseshoe" clip and install eyelets for that.
Assuming I'm right (I don't) about swapping coils should I close the gap on the spark plugs back to .035?
   


-------------
Chuck
72 Gran Torino Sport
08 Taurus (Maytag)
03 Dakota (Rusty)


Posted By: lynchster
Date Posted: 03-September-2022 at 6:33PM
I did find a second problem after I tested the coil resistance.
I moved onto the distributor. It's a recurved factory unit. 

First test of the vacuum advance...........fail. Will not hold a vacuum.
This was a "new" distributor that was recurved and certainly appears to be so. When I removed the vacuum advance the exposed portion of the diaphragm is soft and pliable.  
Here's the scary part. Just for curiosities sake I inserted a 3/32" Allen wrench in it and there was nothing for it to adjust in there. I never messed with it previously because I read it was the last thing to adjust if it was even needed. That said, if they are all adjustable, I may have found the cause of the sudden misfire and its fuel related. Or it was never in there to begin with or this on isn't adjustable (?). 
What if this adjustor backed out and got sucked into the carb through the vacuum line? Anyone know if it possible to be trapped in the carb? If it made it into the engine it doesn't appear to have affected the compression any. 

ugh          


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Chuck
72 Gran Torino Sport
08 Taurus (Maytag)
03 Dakota (Rusty)


Posted By: 72FordGTS
Date Posted: 04-September-2022 at 1:36AM
Originally posted by lynchster lynchster wrote:

I have read about the issues of mismatching coils with ignition systems. I hope I don't have to cut this wire harness open again. I wrapped it like I meant it. Stern Smile
   


You are running a blue strand module for Dura Spark II right?  1977 was the first year for DSII, 1976 was a slightly different ignition system, so I am not sure that the coil are interchangeable.  I am kind of leaning toward CJ's opinion that it might be the module failing. Is it an aftermarket brand?  It seems to be tough to get a quality DS module these days which is why so many run an HEI module instead.

Do you have a troubleshooting guide for a DSII ignition?  It might be worth running through that to check everything.  I might be able to dig one up from an old service manual if you need one.  I also think it would be worthwhile to eliminate the gas from the equation by running off your 2 gallon can with fresh gas.


-------------
Vince

1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car

GTS.org Admin


Posted By: Rockatansky
Date Posted: 04-September-2022 at 4:50AM
not all dizzy vac cans are adjustable,

but as long as it's Censored you might as well open it up and see if anythings missing

trying a GM module swap seems like a valid test?

remember they need a heat sink and the special white grease,
some guys have used the Duraspark case to keep it looking original


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72 GT Ute
   


Posted By: lynchster
Date Posted: 04-September-2022 at 5:42AM
Originally posted by 72FordGTS 72FordGTS wrote:


You are running a blue strand module for Dura Spark II right?  1977 was the first year for DSII, 1976 was a slightly different ignition system, so I am not sure that the coil are interchangeable.  I am kind of leaning toward CJ's opinion that it might be the module failing. Is it an aftermarket brand?  It seems to be tough to get a quality DS module these days which is why so many run an HEI module instead.

Do you have a troubleshooting guide for a DSII ignition?  It might be worth running through that to check everything.  I might be able to dig one up from an old service manual if you need one.  I also think it would be worthwhile to eliminate the gas from the equation by running off your 2 gallon can with fresh gas.

It is a blue strand. I used part numbers for a 1976 Torino. 
I've never heard of a Duraspark box "going" bad only work or don't work.  It would not be the first new thing I've learned.


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Chuck
72 Gran Torino Sport
08 Taurus (Maytag)
03 Dakota (Rusty)


Posted By: Steve M.
Date Posted: 04-September-2022 at 7:23AM
Duraspark boxes do act up.on my 1976 S&H replica, the box would intermittently fail. Once the car sat for about 20 minutes, it would start up and all was good u til the next failure. Replaced it with a Wells unit and problem was solved

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Steve M.


Posted By: lynchster
Date Posted: 04-September-2022 at 8:41AM
Originally posted by Steve M. Steve M. wrote:

Duraspark boxes do act up.on my 1976 S&H replica, the box would intermittently fail. Once the car sat for about 20 minutes, it would start up and all was good u til the next failure. Replaced it with a Wells unit and problem was solved

That's the failure I'm used to. Work or do not work. Not sure it's a cause for the misfire. 


-------------
Chuck
72 Gran Torino Sport
08 Taurus (Maytag)
03 Dakota (Rusty)


Posted By: lynchster
Date Posted: 04-September-2022 at 8:42AM
Originally posted by Rockatansky Rockatansky wrote:

not all dizzy vac cans are adjustable,

but as long as it's Censored you might as well open it up and see if anythings missing

trying a GM module swap seems like a valid test?

remember they need a heat sink and the special white grease,
some guys have used the Duraspark case to keep it looking original

Went out this morning and went digging around with different allen wrenches. Found it where it's supposed to be with a #3 metric. Still doesn't hold a vacuum. LOL


-------------
Chuck
72 Gran Torino Sport
08 Taurus (Maytag)
03 Dakota (Rusty)


Posted By: Rockatansky
Date Posted: 04-September-2022 at 9:39AM
Originally posted by lynchster lynchster wrote:

I have read about the issues of mismatching coils with ignition systems. I hope I don't have to cut this wire harness open again. I wrapped it like I meant it. Stern Smile

Instead of a ballast I used the factory resistor wire. With just the key on it reads just over 3V. I should check that while running.
I believe I went with a coil for a 76 Gran Torino. I don't remember my previous 76 having an external ballast resistor but this coil does call for use of an external ballast. I assumed my lack of a ballast would be ok since the original points coil called for either a resistance wire or external ballast.  
That said the resistance values of the two coils are different with the older one having higher primary and secondary resistance. 
Would swapping back to the original coil make sense? I'd have to cut off the "horseshoe" clip and install eyelets for that.
Assuming I'm right (I don't) about swapping coils should I close the gap on the spark plugs back to .035?
   


3v seems awfully low, i'd expect at least 9v ?
i'd gap the plugs to 035" for a better spark kernel
what plugs, anything exotic double platinum / iridium etc ?


https://www.fordmuscleforums.com/threads/tricky-or-trick-hei-module-inside-duraspark-case.492810/


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72 GT Ute
   


Posted By: handsofstone
Date Posted: 04-September-2022 at 9:54AM
Originally posted by 72FordGTS 72FordGTS wrote:

Originally posted by lynchster lynchster wrote:

I have read about the issues of mismatching coils with ignition systems. I hope I don't have to cut this wire harness open again. I wrapped it like I meant it. Stern Smile
   


You are running a blue strand module for Dura Spark II right?  1977 was the first year for DSII, 1976 was a slightly different ignition system, so I am not sure that the coil are interchangeable.  I am kind of leaning toward CJ's opinion that it might be the module failing. Is it an aftermarket brand?  It seems to be tough to get a quality DS module these days which is why so many run an HEI module instead.

Do you have a troubleshooting guide for a DSII ignition?  It might be worth running through that to check everything.  I might be able to dig one up from an old service manual if you need one.  I also think it would be worthwhile to eliminate the gas from the equation by running off your 2 gallon can with fresh gas.
  Is your vacuum hose going direct to the carb base or ported? I would be surprised if it is in either the carb or engine. I believe the screw has a hole in it anyway and unless the hose was wide open I doubt there is enough air flow to suck it into the hose.


Posted By: lynchster
Date Posted: 04-September-2022 at 10:30AM
Originally posted by Rockatansky)<div><br></div><div>3v seems awfully low, i'd expect at least 9v ?</div><div>i'd gap the plugs to 035 for a better spark kernel <br></div><div>what plugs, anything exotic double platinum / iridium etc ?</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div> <font color='#0000FF'>https://www.fordmuscleforums.com/threads/tricky-or-trick-hei-module-inside-duraspark-case.492810/ rel=nofollow</font> - https://www.fordmuscleforums.com/threads/tricky-or-trick-hei-module-inside-duraspark-case.492810/ <br></div>[/QUOTE Rockatansky)

3v seems awfully low, i'd expect at least 9v ?
i'd gap the plugs to 035 for a better spark kernel
what plugs, anything exotic double platinum / iridium etc ?


https://www.fordmuscleforums.com/threads/tricky-or-trick-hei-module-inside-duraspark-case.492810/ rel=nofollow - https://www.fordmuscleforums.com/threads/tricky-or-trick-hei-module-inside-duraspark-case.492810/
[/QUOTE wrote:



I'm going to test the voltage when running and see what I get.
The plugs are standard autolites gapped at .044. I've been debating about going back to .035.

I'm going to test the voltage when running and see what I get.
The plugs are standard autolites gapped at .044. I've been debating about going back to .035.


-------------
Chuck
72 Gran Torino Sport
08 Taurus (Maytag)
03 Dakota (Rusty)


Posted By: Big Bird
Date Posted: 05-September-2022 at 3:00AM
Adjuster screw will not fit down the vacuum line, and yes, Durasparks go bad and work intermittently.
Innards get heat sensitive and only work when cool, or the potting melts and they get vibration sensitive.
Mine, the back of the inner fender rusted out behind it and it would stop working if wet...


-------------
"What we do in full frontal view, is more honest than your cleaned-up mind."
Randy
1979 T-Bird
2005 F-150 STX RCSB 4.6, 3.55 LSD
How the Heck does a REGULAR CAB SHORTBED weigh over 5200 pounds?


Posted By: lynchster
Date Posted: 05-September-2022 at 4:36PM
Originally posted by handsofstone handsofstone wrote:

 Is your vacuum hose going direct to the carb base or ported? I would be surprised if it is in either the carb or engine. I believe the screw has a hole in it anyway and unless the hose was wide open I doubt there is enough air flow to suck it into the hose.

It's ported. 0 at idle 


-------------
Chuck
72 Gran Torino Sport
08 Taurus (Maytag)
03 Dakota (Rusty)


Posted By: lynchster
Date Posted: 05-September-2022 at 4:37PM
Originally posted by Big Bird Big Bird wrote:

Adjuster screw will not fit down the vacuum line, and yes, Durasparks go bad and work intermittently.
Innards get heat sensitive and only work when cool, or the potting melts and they get vibration sensitive.
Mine, the back of the inner fender rusted out behind it and it would stop working if wet...

Mine starts and runs it just developed a misfire I haven't sorted yet. 


-------------
Chuck
72 Gran Torino Sport
08 Taurus (Maytag)
03 Dakota (Rusty)


Posted By: lynchster
Date Posted: 05-September-2022 at 4:40PM
Originally posted by 72FordGTS 72FordGTS wrote:


You are running a blue strand module for Dura Spark II right?  1977 was the first year for DSII, 1976 was a slightly different ignition system, so I am not sure that the coil are interchangeable.  I am kind of leaning toward CJ's opinion that it might be the module failing. Is it an aftermarket brand?  It seems to be tough to get a quality DS module these days which is why so many run an HEI module instead.

Do you have a troubleshooting guide for a DSII ignition?  It might be worth running through that to check everything.  I might be able to dig one up from an old service manual if you need one.  I also think it would be worthwhile to eliminate the gas from the equation by running off your 2 gallon can with fresh gas.

I checked on rockauto and a 76 Gran Torino and 78 Granada use the same box and coil part numbers for Standard.  No don't have a DSII guide but I'll check to see if there is anything online.



-------------
Chuck
72 Gran Torino Sport
08 Taurus (Maytag)
03 Dakota (Rusty)


Posted By: lynchster
Date Posted: 05-September-2022 at 4:41PM
Originally posted by lynchster lynchster wrote:

Originally posted by Rockatansky)<div><br></div><div>3v seems awfully low, i'd expect at least 9v ?</div><div>i'd gap the plugs to 035 for a better spark kernel <br></div><div>what plugs, anything exotic double platinum / iridium etc ?</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div> <font color='#0000FF'>https://www.fordmuscleforums.com/threads/tricky-or-trick-hei-module-inside-duraspark-case.492810/ rel=nofollow</font> - https://www.fordmuscleforums.com/threads/tricky-or-trick-hei-module-inside-duraspark-case.492810/ <br></div></td></tr></table>
<div><br></div><div>I'm going to test the voltage when running and see what I get. It might be at 3V with just the key on to keep from cooking the coil.</div><div>The plugs are standard autolites gapped at .044. I've been debating about going back to .035.</div>[/QUOTE Rockatansky)

3v seems awfully low, i'd expect at least 9v ?
i'd gap the plugs to 035 for a better spark kernel
what plugs, anything exotic double platinum / iridium etc ?


https://www.fordmuscleforums.com/threads/tricky-or-trick-hei-module-inside-duraspark-case.492810/ rel=nofollow - https://www.fordmuscleforums.com/threads/tricky-or-trick-hei-module-inside-duraspark-case.492810/

I'm going to test the voltage when running and see what I get. It might be at 3V with just the key on to keep from cooking the coil.
The plugs are standard autolites gapped at .044. I've been debating about going back to .035.
[/QUOTE wrote:



-------------
Chuck
72 Gran Torino Sport
08 Taurus (Maytag)
03 Dakota (Rusty)


Posted By: lynchster
Date Posted: 06-September-2022 at 1:28PM
Originally posted by Rockatansky Rockatansky wrote:

  3v seems awfully low, i'd expect at least 9v ?
i'd gap the plugs to 035" for a better spark kernel
what plugs, anything exotic double platinum / iridium etc ?


https://www.fordmuscleforums.com/threads/tricky-or-trick-hei-module-inside-duraspark-case.492810/" rel="nofollow - https://www.fordmuscleforums.com/threads/tricky-or-trick-hei-module-inside-duraspark-case.492810/

I did retest. 
KOEO  4.46V
KOER  9.98V
I have been reading some articles about plug gaps. I went with .044 based solely on factory specs for engines running stock Duraspark systems. I might try a tighter gap. If not .035 maybe .040.
The thing that gets me is the sudden on set of this problem.



-------------
Chuck
72 Gran Torino Sport
08 Taurus (Maytag)
03 Dakota (Rusty)


Posted By: 72FordGTS
Date Posted: 07-September-2022 at 2:53AM
Ok, good that you checked that the '76 was the same parts as the '77.  Ford literally changed the electronic ignition setup on an annual basis until the Dura Spark II was released in 1977.

Here is a test chart for the 1976 Electronic Ignition.  I'd run these tests and report back.






-------------
Vince

1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car

GTS.org Admin


Posted By: lynchster
Date Posted: 07-September-2022 at 4:53AM
I'll do that. I'm still not sure it's the ignition  but I'm committed to running down the list. I did find the diaphragm in the vacuum advance canister was shot. Weird.

-------------
Chuck
72 Gran Torino Sport
08 Taurus (Maytag)
03 Dakota (Rusty)


Posted By: handsofstone
Date Posted: 07-September-2022 at 10:04AM
That removal procedure doesn't mention blowing any debris away from the base of the distributor or putting the hold down and bolt away from the engine. And do not leave a small socket near the car or it will jump down the hole.LOLWink


Posted By: Steve M.
Date Posted: 07-September-2022 at 11:06AM
Place a clean rag in the hole! 
Don't ask.. ...just trust me on this one


-------------
Steve M.


Posted By: lynchster
Date Posted: 07-September-2022 at 3:20PM
I will be pulling the distributor in a while to check for wear to the gear. But there will nothing left to fall in that hole.

-------------
Chuck
72 Gran Torino Sport
08 Taurus (Maytag)
03 Dakota (Rusty)


Posted By: lynchster
Date Posted: 07-September-2022 at 3:26PM
Originally posted by 72FordGTS 72FordGTS wrote:

Ok, good that you checked that the '76 was the same parts as the '77.  Ford literally changed the electronic ignition setup on an annual basis until the Dura Spark II was released in 1977.

Here is a test chart for the 1976 Electronic Ignition.  I'd run these tests and report back.

The painless harness doesn't map out exactly like that but close enough. I found a .6 to 1 volt drop to the module red wire.
Battery 12.46V key off
Battery 12.11V key on

Module 11.5V key on

Checked it again after running the car and the module is receiving 12.3. Must have just be slightly low from testing.



-------------
Chuck
72 Gran Torino Sport
08 Taurus (Maytag)
03 Dakota (Rusty)


Posted By: 72FordGTS
Date Posted: 08-September-2022 at 8:57AM
Originally posted by lynchster lynchster wrote:


The painless harness doesn't map out exactly like that but close enough. I found a .6 to 1 volt drop to the module red wire.
Battery 12.46V key off
Battery 12.11V key on

Module 11.5V key on

Checked it again after running the car and the module is receiving 12.3. Must have just be slightly low from testing.



Did you do that module bias test then?  It says that if the voltage is not within + or - 0.1 volts of the battery voltage that the wire likely needs repair.  Maybe check all the connectors on each end of the wire to ensure not too much resistance.  I could see if that module is not getting adequate voltage that this could cause issue.


-------------
Vince

1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car

GTS.org Admin


Posted By: lynchster
Date Posted: 08-September-2022 at 10:12AM
Originally posted by 72FordGTS 72FordGTS wrote:

[QUOTE=lynchster]

Did you do that module bias test then?  It says that if the voltage is not within + or - 0.1 volts of the battery voltage that the wire likely needs repair.  Maybe check all the connectors on each end of the wire to ensure not too much resistance.  I could see if that module is not getting adequate voltage that this could cause issue.
That was the test I performed. The first attempt looked like an issue but the key had been on and off all day testing things.
The retest after I ran it for a bit put it at .16V.
 .06 out of range but it's well over 12V.


-------------
Chuck
72 Gran Torino Sport
08 Taurus (Maytag)
03 Dakota (Rusty)


Posted By: lynchster
Date Posted: 08-September-2022 at 10:31AM
I'm going to keep on this and posting. Never know who it may help down the road.

To date:

Pulled the plugs, checked gaps, and condition.
   .044 and reddish. Ran fine before. I'll try going back to .035 as Rock suggested.

Swapped out the distributor cap.

Checked primary and secondary resistance of coil.

Checked voltage at coil key on and running.

Checked resistance of plug wires
     All under 50 ohms per foot

Checked vacuum.
     Steady 15hg but did need 1/2 turn out to steady it.

Checked compression.
     All between 174 and 179 psi

Replaced defective vacuum advance.
     Just because it was found

Checked for manifold / carb vacuum leak with starting fluid.
     Nothing

Could very well be the carb or the module but I'm almost certain it's a motocraft. I personally have never seen a module cause a misfire but one of my favorite sayings is "Don't tell me what it isn't until you can tell me what it is".





-------------
Chuck
72 Gran Torino Sport
08 Taurus (Maytag)
03 Dakota (Rusty)


Posted By: 72 RS 351
Date Posted: 08-September-2022 at 12:18PM
How old are the plug wires, and how many times have they been pulled off of the plugs? Those are all very fragile, and they aren't that expensive to replace on older cars.


-------------
Don
73 Ranchero Sport "72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000rpm 351-4V &4R70W
73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V 3.70 gears for sale later.
92 Lincoln Mark VII SE, OBDII 347/4R70W


Posted By: lynchster
Date Posted: 08-September-2022 at 12:23PM
Originally posted by 72 RS 351 72 RS 351 wrote:

How old are the plug wires, and how many times have they been pulled off of the plugs? Those are all very fragile, and they aren't that expensive to replace on older cars.

It's all "new".  That said the vacuum advance diaphragm was torn anyway.
Checking spark plug resistance now. First 4 are between 5000 - 5100 ohm. Barring operational error I've just about cleared the ignition system.


-------------
Chuck
72 Gran Torino Sport
08 Taurus (Maytag)
03 Dakota (Rusty)


Posted By: lynchster
Date Posted: 08-September-2022 at 1:26PM
I've thinking about fuel system in the background.

It lacks a gauge and a regulator. The Edelbrock carbs (this one a 1411 750cfm) like about 5psi and a stock pump can do about 7-8 psi. It didn't seem to be a  problem running it under construction or for the first 80 miles but here we are.
Not certain how to reconfigure the fuel lines.
I do have a 600cfm Holley "Warrior" sitting around that was rebuilt years ago and never used but the fuel line is all wrong for that at the moment too.



-------------
Chuck
72 Gran Torino Sport
08 Taurus (Maytag)
03 Dakota (Rusty)


Posted By: lynchster
Date Posted: 08-September-2022 at 3:57PM
Originally posted by lynchster lynchster wrote:

Originally posted by 72FordGTS 72FordGTS wrote:

[QUOTE=lynchster]

Did you do that module bias test then?  It says that if the voltage is not within + or - 0.1 volts of the battery voltage that the wire likely needs repair.  Maybe check all the connectors on each end of the wire to ensure not too much resistance.  I could see if that module is not getting adequate voltage that this could cause issue.
That was the test I performed. The first attempt looked like an issue but the key had been on and off all day testing things.
The retest after I ran it for a bit put it at .16V.
 .06 out of range but it's well over 12V.

I was looking over those sheets you posted and did another test. I'd like to start the car again but it's almost 11pm.

Battery down to 12.28V
Module bias - red 11.76
Voltage - green 12.17

The key on power supply is an unused plug I believe for A/C in cars that have it. I used it for the choke and the module since it didn't involve cutting and splicing. It currently test at 12.24V

Until I can start it again I'm going the bypass the key on power supply of the factory harness and go to the battery. Maybe there is too much of a drop there.

Edit: I did the bypass and it eliminates any meaning full voltage drop. All but matches battery voltage. Not what I was hoping for. It appears I'm going to have to irrevocably tap the harness somewhere.




-------------
Chuck
72 Gran Torino Sport
08 Taurus (Maytag)
03 Dakota (Rusty)


Posted By: lynchster
Date Posted: 08-September-2022 at 4:59PM
This is the power supply that I tapped for the choke and DSII.




-------------
Chuck
72 Gran Torino Sport
08 Taurus (Maytag)
03 Dakota (Rusty)


Posted By: Greg73Oregon
Date Posted: 09-September-2022 at 5:43AM
I replaced my points ignition with a Duraspark set-up with a Jegs 45,000V ignition coil (p/n:555-40100).  I used a relay to get full battery power to both the coil and module.
Used a standard automotive type of relay and socket and mounted it on the firewall.  Tapped +12V off of the power side of the starter solenoid & blended wire routing to the relay.
Here is the schematic:







-------------
GKF


Posted By: lynchster
Date Posted: 09-September-2022 at 8:20AM
I like that idea

-------------
Chuck
72 Gran Torino Sport
08 Taurus (Maytag)
03 Dakota (Rusty)


Posted By: lynchster
Date Posted: 09-September-2022 at 8:26AM
I tried something that's failed.
I made a jumper wire to the unused key on male terminal in the fuse box it's actually +.1 volts compared to the battery when running and used that. Did not start. Plugged it back into the original spot starts. 
Note. That .1 volt is at 13.5 running.
 Even Edison discovered thousands of ways not to build a lightbulb. 😆


-------------
Chuck
72 Gran Torino Sport
08 Taurus (Maytag)
03 Dakota (Rusty)


Posted By: 72FordGTS
Date Posted: 09-September-2022 at 8:34AM
I was actually about to suggest the same thing to you. I was going to power my ignition from the same source you show in your pic, but decided against it because the voltage drop was too much.  I run a relay very similar to above, albeit, I am using a Trackboss ignition from TMI not Dura Spark, but the principle is the same.  FWIW, the ignition wire will trigger the relay even after going through a resistance wire.  Most of electonic modules need a good strong battery source to run correctly.  I know even pertronix modules can act up unless they get a clean 12 volts. 

As for the carb causing the issue, for it to cause a misfire, I think you'd need to be running super lean.  I am assuming your plugs look okay?  I have heard the same about Edelbrock carbs needing a regulator, but too much pressure usually overwhelms the needle and seat and leads to flooding/rough running due to excessive richness.  Again the plugs would show this, and you'd likely have some black smoke.  That said, a pressure regulator is probably a good idea.  I should get around to adding one to my car....




-------------
Vince

1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car

GTS.org Admin


Posted By: lynchster
Date Posted: 09-September-2022 at 11:01AM
I tested that circuit with the car running and it delivers over 13V. It just so happens the choke is tied to that plug and made testing while running easy. 
I did find something out about the plug. The aftermarket bullet connector apparently makes poor contact inside that plug. I moved the harness and it skipped a beat. I don't know if a hard splice solves the problem but it is another discovery.
Also bypassed the fuel tank with a gas can to the pump. It's not the gas. Another one down. 😆

I haven't gotten to the carb. It's not running rich and I haven't excused the ignition just yet. I don't have a spare module so I may pick one up for sh*ts and giggles.


-------------
Chuck
72 Gran Torino Sport
08 Taurus (Maytag)
03 Dakota (Rusty)


Posted By: lynchster
Date Posted: 09-September-2022 at 12:27PM
She's Back.......

It's not perfected but the sputtering is gone. That power supply seems sufficient but mating an aftermarket bullet connect with that oem plug was a bad idea.

That said I'd like to thank the group for the information and ideas. Some of those are going to be incorporated.
Beer



-------------
Chuck
72 Gran Torino Sport
08 Taurus (Maytag)
03 Dakota (Rusty)


Posted By: 72FordGTS
Date Posted: 09-September-2022 at 12:38PM
Great news!! Consider running the relay setup, it's really important the module has a good power source. I have run a relay for my ignition for years, installed it back when I ran a pertronix. Those connectors can add a lot of resistance for sure.

-------------
Vince

1972 Ford GTS Sportsroof - Survivor, One Family car

GTS.org Admin


Posted By: hogfiddles
Date Posted: 09-September-2022 at 1:11PM
It’s a similar issue to one we had on the Suzuki VL1500LC motorcycles.....the stator would burn out——- except it wasn’t really burning out.  The myriad of wire connections would go bad, and so a ‘bypass procedure’ was figured out...... solder a new wire in, bypass the next several connections and attach to the battery ( or wherever it was supposed to go... can’t recall at the moment), and all of a sudden the charging issue disappeared.    Yep, more connectors = more problems.

-------------
1973 Gran Torino Sport - Q code “Q-Clone” project-on-hold
1972 Gran Torino Sport - Q code new project
1972 Gran Torino - parts
1969 Torino GT - M code
95+/- mid-80's Yamaha XJ-Series (10 trophies)


Posted By: 72 RS 351
Date Posted: 09-September-2022 at 4:18PM
I hope that you get it fixed quickly now that you have a good idea of where the issue was.

That reminds me of the resistance in newer cars now that everyone is used to spark plugs that don't get changed for 100k miles. People regularly now don't change them at all, and well the vehicle, so the 2nd or 3rd owner has to figure out how old the plugs are. When you let the plug gaps reach never before sizes such as .150", guess what that resistance does? I had read of it, but I had my first experience of it with my last SUV, three years ago.

The coil pack on my 98 Explorer failed(hard miss on two cylinders). I had the truck for a month and first replaced the front suspension(4 bad BJ's). I worked on fluids and planned to do the plugs and wires soon. I needed the truck for work quickly and drove it as soon as I had checked fluids etc, but not the plugs. It ran fine for about four days, and then a miss began. I changed four plugs first, before work the next day. Four are very tough to get at without removing the inner fender cover. So I did the other four after work, but the miss had gotten worse through the day, and the other plugs didn't fix it. The next day I swapped coil packs, it has two, it's a batch fire waste ignition system. I changed the one that handled the two cylinders miss firing(CEL codes like P0301 and P0306), which fixed the miss. I threw that coil pack in scrap, and the other I saved as a spare). The gaps were all in the 0.135" to 0.160" range, way too high of course. The OEM coil packs are very reliable and powerful, but they will die with gaps that large.


-------------
Don
73 Ranchero Sport "72 front end", floor shift/console, planning EFI 7000rpm 351-4V &4R70W
73 Ranchero GT 351C-4V 3.70 gears for sale later.
92 Lincoln Mark VII SE, OBDII 347/4R70W


Posted By: kychevyguy
Date Posted: 10-September-2022 at 2:55AM
I am glad that the sputtering is gone.

-------------
JT, USAF Ret./Architect
1971 Ford F100 "Lizzy"
1976 Ranchero GT "Ricky Bobby"
1984 Chevy Silverado "Sylvia"
2015 Volvo XC60 R-Design "Sven"


Posted By: Greg73Oregon
Date Posted: 10-September-2022 at 7:26AM
FYI: Sometimes when relay circuits are used (such as the relay circuit described above, electric radiator fan set-ups, high powered speaker amps, etc.) the ALT light may dimly glow with the engine (key) off.
The lights (sometimes referred to as "idiot lights") are just that, marginally useful and the circuits are basic - if that much.  I've found that a lot of the times this happens when electronic regulators are used (versus mechanical relay type).  
Should you find that you have this condition, it's an easy fix that will cost you a buck or so to remedy.  All you need to do is splice in a diode (sometimes called a rectifier) that will stop any bleed-back current to the "I" terminal of the alternator regulator.
Diode can be purchased from any electronic parts stores, Digi-Key, Mouser, Allied, etc.  Diode part number, such as 1N4004, 1N4005, 1N5402. etc. will work just fine.
This is the schematic and directions to add a diode:





-------------
GKF


Posted By: lynchster
Date Posted: 11-September-2022 at 6:10AM
Good to know.
I did notice one oddity yesterday. When I start the car the turnsignal bulbs flicker on just a moment. Might be the LED's.



-------------
Chuck
72 Gran Torino Sport
08 Taurus (Maytag)
03 Dakota (Rusty)


Posted By: Greg73Oregon
Date Posted: 11-September-2022 at 11:30AM
Boy! That's an odd one.  It's possible that the cause is due to "inductive kick-back" from either the started solenoid or starter motor - any component/part that has a magnetic coil. When a magnetic field collapses, a spike in the opposite current direction is momentarily generated.  Could be coupled through "mutual coupling" of wiring that is close to each other.
Among other things, spent 21 years in avionics performing FAA interference testing of avionics equipment...also, thermal, humidity, vibration, over/undervoltage, lightening, RF radiated/conducted emissions and susceptibility, Highly Accelerated Life Testing (HALT), Blah-Blah-Blah.  And, 12 years in airborne counter-warfare equipment production & testing.


-------------
GKF


Posted By: lynchster
Date Posted: 12-September-2022 at 11:06AM
Whoa!
That would definitely make you an expert. 


-------------
Chuck
72 Gran Torino Sport
08 Taurus (Maytag)
03 Dakota (Rusty)


Posted By: Greg73Oregon
Date Posted: 12-September-2022 at 3:44PM
I wouldn't go so far as to say "expert".  But thanks for the complement. Thumbs Up
PS: LED lights can fire at voltages as low as 3.0V.
Did you replace the existing filament bulbs with LED that included a separate dimmer circuit?
If so, low voltages and spikes sometimes confuses the dimmer circuit.


-------------
GKF


Posted By: handsofstone
Date Posted: 12-September-2022 at 5:37PM
I think you just nailed the light problem. I think he has all led except one and it allows dimming that way. Pretty long resume and thanks for your service. I know I know, just doing your job.Clap 


Posted By: lynchster
Date Posted: 15-September-2022 at 4:09PM
Originally posted by Greg73Oregon Greg73Oregon wrote:

I wouldn't go so far as to say "expert".  But thanks for the complement. Thumbs Up
PS: LED lights can fire at voltages as low as 3.0V.
Did you replace the existing filament bulbs with LED that included a separate dimmer circuit?
If so, low voltages and spikes sometimes confuses the dimmer circuit.

Here's an interesting scenerio for you. I replaced the gauge lights with green LED bulbs. I used an incandescent bulb for the heater controls. They were too bright and distracting at night.
Anyway. With the incandescent bulb the LED bulbs are now dimmable.


-------------
Chuck
72 Gran Torino Sport
08 Taurus (Maytag)
03 Dakota (Rusty)


Posted By: lynchster
Date Posted: 15-September-2022 at 4:10PM
Originally posted by handsofstone handsofstone wrote:

I think you just nailed the light problem. I think he has all led except one and it allows dimming that way. Pretty long resume and thanks for your service. I know I know, just doing your job.Clap 

 
Good memory 


-------------
Chuck
72 Gran Torino Sport
08 Taurus (Maytag)
03 Dakota (Rusty)


Posted By: Greg73Oregon
Date Posted: 15-September-2022 at 4:48PM
Hey! What is this? "Stump-the-Chump Time"?
Here's the deal: some LEDs are dimmable, and others are not. (Notice this when you're trying to buy LED bulbs for your house).
One of the characteristics of LEDs is that they inherently have a much narrower voltage vs. brightness graph as compared to incandescent lights.  In fact, if you have ever played with a home dimmer switch that is connected to incandescent lights, you'll notice that as you turn the brightness up from off position the lamp will light at a specific point, but after it lights you can turn the brightness control lower than the point that it lit up. (The filament changes resistance from heat).
It sounds like that the filament bulb(s) are giving you a little more voltage/current adjustment than with the LEDs alone.
Most LED dimmer controls produce a constant voltage but varies the on-to-off time (called duty cycle).  Instead of a direct current (DC), it produces a 0 to a fixed voltage square wave. The dimmer circuit varies the pulse width from no pulse width (0 duty cycle) to full on (100% duty cycle).
Notice with some of the early cars with crude LED control. At night, turn your head while looking away from the taillights, and it looks like a strobe light.


-------------
GKF



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