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Oil System

Printed From: The Ford Torino Page
Category: Powertrain Specific Forum
Forum Name: 335 Series Engine Forum
Forum Description: 351C, 351M and 400 engines
URL: https://forum.grantorinosport.org/forum_posts.asp?TID=4020
Printed Date: 07-October-2022 at 1:16AM
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.05 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Oil System
Posted By: moose0211
Subject: Oil System
Date Posted: 24-July-2010 at 5:05AM

I always hear about how Clevelands have poor oiling systems and how all of thoses mods should be done to be safe. Is this really necessary for street engines? If I were to install a perma cool oil cooler, how would I tap into the oil? from the pan?

Thanks,
-Lou



Replies:
Posted By: SquireCJ
Date Posted: 24-July-2010 at 6:13PM
have had several 351 Cleveland rebuilt for street use and currently have 6 cars that have 351 Clevelands all built for street use.  I have asked all kinds of questions to many different "Engine Experts" specifically 351 Cleveland experts and I am told that the only oil issue with the Cleveland is when you get into the real high revving performance engines and that there is no real need for modifications to the oiling system for a street engine. The issue has to do with oil starvation at real high revs and if needed there is a simple rerouting kit you can pick up on Ebay that attaches to the oil pug just above the oil filter and fuel pump and connects to the back of the block where the oil pressure  sensor mounts.  I don't think an oil cooler  would address the oil starvation issue if in fact you would be having the oil starvation issue with your engine setup.  I just had a 1972 351 Cleveland Cobra Jet rebuilt with a new Lunati cam, new higher performance springs, roller rockers
and high volume oil pump.  I was told no need for further modifications to the oiling system.


Posted By: mtburger
Date Posted: 28-July-2010 at 12:51PM
Just a few comments on this one.
 
There is a bunch of mis-information on the Cleveland oiling system. It has been well documented.
 
1) The 351 Cleveland and 429-460 use the same design oiling system. Both engines use the same path to oil there internal components, but the 429-460 never gets the bad press the Cleveland does. If it is a poor design on one, how come not on both?
 
2) The biggest mistake you can make on a Cleveland is to put a high volume pump in the engine with a stock capacity pan. You increase the volume of oil moved by the pump, but never increase the volume of oil you are moving.
 
Instant problem.
 
I have seen multiple people do any combination of the following.
 
Install a high volume pump. 
Install a high pressure pump. 
Put a high pressure spring into a high volume pump to make a high pressure, high volume pump.
 
BUT THEY NEVER PUT A BIG PAN ON IT.
 
If you use a stock pan, use a stock pump.
 
If you upgade the pump, spend the money on a quality, high capacity pan and matching pickup.
 
Mike H.


Posted By: Rockatansky
Date Posted: 01-August-2010 at 6:16PM
the original lifters from Ford didn't flow a ton of oil to the top, aftermarket lifters flow much more than Ford designed for, some more than others. agree that the stock system is fine for 90% of builds as is, & pan volume is a big help. stock HO Clevelands came with a baffled pan & a dipstick that read full with 6 quarts in the same pan as base model 5 quart Cleveland. under hard use that extra quart is 'in limbo' draining back to the pan.
 
a cooler isn't necessary but i noticed right away that my P71 Crown Vic with a cooler kept it's oil clean much longer than any engine i've ever had w/o a cooler. the cooler lines would route from an adapter that installs between the block and oil filter, or you could remote mount the filter to the frame or fenderwell depending upon the adapter you choose
 
 


Posted By: moose0211
Date Posted: 02-August-2010 at 3:38AM
Thanks guys, since my oil pan will probably need replaced, should I go with a bigger 6 quart? I'm not worried about the oil because the car will most likely never see a strip, but I figure if I am having to buy a new pan, might as well get a bigger one, right? Off topic but I dont think it is worth starting another thread about, has anyone had experience with Lunati? I am liking the Voodoo camshafts 


Posted By: Rockatansky
Date Posted: 02-August-2010 at 4:16AM
what's wrong with your stock pan? good replacements aren't cheap, cheap ones aren't good and chrome leaks. the cheap chrome pans are less than 5 quarts.  i'd rather fix a stock pan than use new junk. actually strip duty might not be as bad as the open road for pumping the pan dry, you can keep your foot down a lot longer on the interstate. something to check is the oil return drains from the head at the head gasket. i found that the gasket doesn't always line up right and significantly blocks off the return hole in the block, i haven't checked if the head lines up with the gasket yet
 
a mild build should be fine with a standard oil pump & stock pan 
 
no experience with Lunati but lots of guys like them. i'd start a new thread, you'll get more traffic to the topic


Posted By: SquireCJ
Date Posted: 02-August-2010 at 8:07AM
I just installed a Lunati 5203 in my 1972 Ranchero Gt 4 speed, I only have a few hundred miles on it and so far I like it.  The power range is bit higher than stock but there is lots of it.


Posted By: moose0211
Date Posted: 02-August-2010 at 8:58AM
My stock pan is very rusty and there sre small leaks around the top edge. Before I buy a new one I am going to drop the pan, sand it and coat it with soe POR-15 and also replace the gasket, I am thinking the gasket is the culprit. I didnt know they made chrome pans, seems kind of stupid as nobody looks under the car LOL. I will start a new thread on the cams in the 72-76 forum because I want broad responses from people with different engines. Thanks Rockatansky, SquireCJ and MTburger


Posted By: Rockatansky
Date Posted: 02-August-2010 at 12:27PM
if it is rust i'd say replace it for sure with either quality or stock. the Cobra Jet pan has a baffle in it


Posted By: Fordified V8
Date Posted: 07-August-2010 at 10:59AM
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MOR-20557/

I found this to be ideal for my 500HP + build & fits my 72" chassis.

-------------
70 MACH I "R" code

72 GTS 351CJ

72 TR6



15 F250 Lariat


Posted By: Rockatansky
Date Posted: 07-August-2010 at 3:55PM
does that pan really take 6 qts to the full mark on a stock dipstick?


Posted By: Fordified V8
Date Posted: 08-August-2010 at 3:23AM
According to the spec it holds 6 quarts. I originally purchased the 8 quart Milodon but when I dropped the engine into place the pan interfered with the cross member. This Moroso was not only less money
but is shaped almost exactly like the original. Unfortunately, I was poised to install yesterdat but ran into another issue with the B&M torque converter that I selected. Once again, according to Summit was the correct part. However, my original flex plate & torque converter are an eight bolt pattern & the B&M is a 4 bolt pattern. As for the dipstick, even though I still have the original I had purchased a Milodon to accomidate the deep pan. It was $50.00 and decided to keep it because it is cool. Billit aluminum & SS braided. The dipstick issue ought to be easy to get around so long as it seats properly.

-------------
70 MACH I "R" code

72 GTS 351CJ

72 TR6



15 F250 Lariat


Posted By: Rockatansky
Date Posted: 10-August-2010 at 10:34AM
your 8 stud/nut flex/converter is the factory Cobra Jet 2800 stall set up, does the new converter not fit the flex at all? it'll be fine with 4 mounting points if they line up 


Posted By: Fordified V8
Date Posted: 10-August-2010 at 2:17PM
No good on the fit to stock as the bolt diameter is off by about 2".
I went to the B&M site and found out that a new flexplate is required.

May as well since just about every part has been refurbished from crank pulley to tailshaft housing.

I needed longer header bolts anyway as I am using Stinger exhaust port plates, so it's not like I could have fired it up anyway.



-------------
70 MACH I "R" code

72 GTS 351CJ

72 TR6



15 F250 Lariat


Posted By: BackInBlack
Date Posted: 03-May-2011 at 12:32PM
For street engines not seeing over 6k rpm, mostly under 5K street driving...there is nothing wrong with the cleveland oil system.   You do not need a high pressure or high volume oil pump.
 
The biggest problem you will find in reliability is the 2 piece stock valves.  they have a repuation for breaking.   Also, on the rods replace the nuts with ARP nuts.   They nuts also have a repuation for breaking.   The rods are fine for a street build with mild cam as are the rod bolts.
 
When you build a 7K+ rpm motor you have to make some mods like:
oil restrictors for the cam bearings
bushings for the lifters
replace the push rods with oil restictor types
replace main bearing using the 351Boss kit or 2 main kits using the groove bearing top and bottom
get the right lifters, clevelands are different than windsors. you shouldn't put windsor lifters in a cleveland.  Crane has a good rep for cleveland parts.
Use a Boss 351 pan and oil pickup, 6qt
 
Even with doing these mods you dont need a high pressure or high volume oil pump.   These are some of teh things done with the race clevelands when they first came out.   Ford motosport used to source the lifter bushing kits, not any longer.  (Take a close look at the 351 Boss, many of these things were done on the boss from the factory.  Which is why it had a solid lifter cam.)
 
Clevelands are serious powerplants when built right.   They will cost more than a windsor motor, but all other things equal it will always outperform a Windsor.   (The main reason is friction due to the crank bearing size...etc.)  The big block 385 series are very similar (bigger sibling), just scaled up in size.   Same oiling system issues. 
 
I have some reference links and books that I will try to dig up and put on this post.  
 
The only thing I wish that I could change on the cleveland (except the oil system) is a taller deck height so I could stroke it without forcing the piston pin to close to the ring pack.  I like full skirt pistons and bulding it to be as reliable as stock for everyday driving.   IMO, that means that stroking beyond 392 cubes or 408 max wont be as reliable for street.
 
There is a good after market aluminum block that can be bought with a 9.5" deck height.   Check out the Fontana block or now Tod Buttermore is suppose to bring one out.  The Fontana block has been out for a while now.
 
http://351cleveland.wetpaint.com/page/Fontana+Block - http://351cleveland.wetpaint.com/page/Fontana+Block
 
Basically, a 351C crank in a 351W block.   I plan to stroke my cleveland and use chevy sized rods.
 
The biggest issues I have read about the clevelands is the oil system for race motors...its as if the managers at ford went into a cost cutting binge stopping the engineers from finishing the motor the right way.   Second, was quality control...I understand that some blocks were not square.  The bores weren't correct across the engine and the only way to fix that is have it bored 30 over and aligned/squared ( cant remember the correct terminology).
 
There are some very knowledgable guys in the Pantera forums.   I have found most of the good info there.
 
Check these links out:
http://www.carmemories.com/cgi-bin/viewexperience.cgi?experience_id=869 - http://www.carmemories.com/cgi-bin/viewexperience.cgi?experience_id=869
 
http://www.carmemories.com/cgi-bin/viewexperience.cgi?experience_id=868 - http://www.carmemories.com/cgi-bin/viewexperience.cgi?experience_id=868
 
http://351cleveland.wetpaint.com/page/LifterBushing - http://351cleveland.wetpaint.com/page/LifterBushing
 
http://wydendorfmachine.com/reamerkits.html - http://wydendorfmachine.com/reamerkits.html


-------------
-John
1973 GTS


Posted By: bdavis
Date Posted: 13-May-2011 at 4:10PM
I was running through the conversations and was wondering if the stock 351c 4v cobra jet oil pan takes 5 or 6 qts of oil?

-------------
-Ben

72 GTS 351c\Q

05 F-150 FX4

BUILT FORD TOUGH!


Posted By: BackInBlack
Date Posted: 13-May-2011 at 4:19PM
Mine takes 5qts...73 Cobra Jet...aka Sport model

351Boss has a 6qts pan, better pump, and better pickup I believe


-------------
-John
1973 GTS


Posted By: Rockatansky
Date Posted: 13-May-2011 at 5:03PM
i think the pans are all the same at 5 qt's but the dipstick on some engines, Boss & HO? were calibrated for a 6 qt full mark
 
the idea is that a quart(or more) is in limbo during hard operation and the extra quart helps keep the pick-up covered
 
there are/were 2 different pick-ups but all pumps from the factory were standard volume, not sure about the pressure springs?
 
this is the performance pick up screen
 
 
this is the grocery getter screen
 
 
figure 5 total in the engine minus the oil in the filter... maybe just over a gallon in the pan doesn't seem like much. i'm about to wash up a couple pans, now you've got me curious what 4 & 5 quarts looks like in the pan. i'll take some pics


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72 GT Ute
   


Posted By: BackInBlack
Date Posted: 14-May-2011 at 2:30AM
Yup...you are correct about the dipstick.   Forgot about that.   Looks the same externally with a re-cal dipstick.   The boss pan was also baffled.

-------------
-John
1973 GTS


Posted By: Rockatansky
Date Posted: 15-May-2011 at 7:27PM
i got some pics of my pan with 4 & 5 quarts in it. 4 qts put the level about 5 3/4" down from the top, with 5 qts it was 5 1/4" down from the top, rough estimate the crank is about 3 1/2" down into the pan
 
 
 
then i got a few of another pan with 4, 5, 6 & 7 in it
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


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72 GT Ute
   


Posted By: Eliteman76
Date Posted: 04-February-2012 at 9:05AM
Dragging this older thread back up.
On the builds, one of the basic things I have seen, that I will do on my CJ, is when the block goes out to be machined, it will get the lifter bores bushed.
There was some significant discussion about this on the 335 network 54 forum.

Basics, always follow the basics...while I always assumed some crazy Gran National "Hank the Crank" oiling system mod was required to make the clev live, not needed on the street. I could see a drag boat, drag racing, circle track usage but for the street? Doubt it.

I elected to do a small external line on my 71 351c as a basic precaution.
You could build a kit using a couple brass fittings and a line quite easily, or pick up a AN stainless line with some adapters.




-------------
Andrew: Long time Torino guy and GTS.ORG admin


Posted By: BackInBlack
Date Posted: 04-February-2012 at 10:31AM
Some basics that I've learned.  Oiling system:  if your under 6K rpm stock is fine.  If your on a track and consistantly over 6k-7K+ then you will need some mods.   

1.  Add bushings to the lifters.  I found a kit with tooling that will let you install them yourself for about $400
2.  Add oil restrictors in the block from the mains to the cam bearings.   This forces more pressure/oil to the mains (same Moroso kit that Jack Roush used...I think its mentioned in one of the links)
3.  Use the full grooved bearings on the mains like that found on the 351Boss.  this may take buying 2 main bearing sets and using the grooved half out of each.
4.  Make sure you use the correct lifters.  People will sell you lifters for a 351W by mistake.  Crower still sells the correct 351C lifters.  Also the 351Boss used a solid lifter cam to reduce the draw of oil to teh valve train.   If you use a hydraulic cam the bushings oil hole will need to be sized a little larger.
5.  Use push rods that restrict the flow to the rockers.   I understand that you need to target 0.040-0.060ish range.
6.  Also I believe that the mains and rods need 0.0025 clearances...but dont take my word for it.  Double check this info.  I think stock was on the order of 0.0017 but for racing you need more clearance.   

Andy...I wouldn't add that external line.   Make sure you double check the effects.   Basically this is patch and doesn't fix the problem.   The oil system in a 351C is the same as that found in the 429/460 385 series motors.   Its actually a good system when everything is clearanced properly.  Like a sprinkler system or any fluid distribution you have less "friction" through a large central main with tributaries branching off which is what the 351C/429/460 oil system is designed.   It has one large central oil pipe running through the middle of teh block feeding the cam and mains.  The problem is if any of the tributaries  can take to much fluid off the main line and starve it dropping fluid pressure.  By the time the oil gets to main #5 from the oil pump on main #1 the pressure drops at high rpm because the tributaries feeding the cam and valve train take to much off the main central distribution.   By restricting those paths fluid pressure is maintained and the majority of the oil is forced to the mains where it is needed.  

Keep in mind that when they raced 351C external lines were not needed.

Here is a link with some good info
http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5650045562/m/319104265" rel="nofollow - http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5650045562/m/319104265

Look at the pantera websites.   351C got a bad rep for this oil problem, but when you really dig into the engine design its actually a very impressive design.   Big HP out of lower displacement.
Also, you only need a standard pressure/standard volume oil pump for most applications if the oil system is done properly with a higher capacity oil pan of course with baffling.

Here is some more info I dug up regarding a retrofit Jack Roush did to improve the high rpm oil pressure.

Another info link about the oil system and oil pump mods:
Hello,my name is Bill .
I live in Tenn. I have raced 351 c for many years . Your article is very good in talking about 351c but you and I disagree on one thing in my experience it is not good to put high volume /high pressure oil pump on a 351c . Here is another way use layout fluid to make sure holes in   main bearings are the same size as the saddle in the block.use 2 5/16 washers between the cotter pin and cup in the stock oil pump resrtict 234 main with moroso ,010 kit. if you do this you will have 10 pounds oil pressure at idle and 80 pounds at 8000 rpm. (I cannot take credit for this info but you can give credit to Mr roush(jack ) as he told me this was theyre setup in thetyre nascar engines in the day ) run a solid lifter ,cam 294 solid from comp cams is an excellent cam for 4 bbl 351 c even though  it is not split duration with port plates from csi racing as well as a windage tray I ran 11-1 compression with open chamber 4 bbl heads an 800 cfm holley(tuned) and hooker super comps through dual 2.5s with crossover .it was in a mach 1 mustang that ran (with a 4 speed )in the 6s eigth  http://mile.it/" rel="nofollow - mile.it  would smash the back bumper on the ground on the street.
 Again I think you have a lot of great info . the only reason I offer this info is that I spun a lot of rod bearings trying to run aftermarket oil pumps til Jack showed me the light,
Thanks,Bill
 
 
http://351cleveland.wetpaint.com/page/Oiling+tech" rel="nofollow - http://351cleveland.wetpaint.com/page/Oiling+tech


Please dont take this info as gospel....double check and do the research.   I'm still trying to decide to keep the 351C or build a 429...I like the cleveland, but getting performance parts seem really difficult.

As I dig through my research I'll try to post more details...

This is a very good write up explaining the problem with a oil system diagram.

http://www.351c.net/wiki/oilingproblems.pdf" rel="nofollow - http://www.351c.net/wiki/oilingproblems.pdf

-John



-------------
-John
1973 GTS


Posted By: BackInBlack
Date Posted: 04-February-2012 at 10:38AM
Originally posted by moose0211 moose0211 wrote:

Thanks guys, since my oil pan will probably need replaced, should I go with a bigger 6 quart? I'm not worried about the oil because the car will most likely never see a strip, but I figure if I am having to buy a new pan, might as well get a bigger one, right? Off topic but I dont think it is worth starting another thread about, has anyone had experience with Lunati? I am liking the Voodoo camshafts 

If your not going to race it then just keep the stock pan.   The only upgrade would be a 351Boss oil pan and pick-up which is essentially a stock pan with baffling.   Its a advertised as a 6qt pan but actually the dip stick was changed to allow more oil in the pan yet it holds the same amount as a stock pan.

Its been so long...I'm just repeating what was already said in the thread...

This can be deleted...John


-------------
-John
1973 GTS


Posted By: BackInBlack
Date Posted: 04-February-2012 at 10:44AM
Andy if your just looking for a quick fix and not a motor rebuild with bushings and cam restrictors; you can prolly just do a mechanical cam with oil restrictors in the push rods just to give you a little extra confidence that you wont break it if you push it hard.   This alone will help keep more oil in the bottom end instead delivering it to the valve train.

Just a thought.

-John


-------------
-John
1973 GTS


Posted By: Rockatansky
Date Posted: 04-February-2012 at 12:04PM
check out http://www.lifterboretools.com" rel="nofollow - www.lifterboretools.com you can bush only the side that feeds the mains, making a kit cover 2 blocks or reducing your shop cost by 1/2. if you're gonna use a roller cam bush all the holes because most roller lifters flow too much oil, many will cause the pump to suck the pan dry 
 
full groove mains were also part of the Original Recipe that has been overlooked. bearing makers say the full groove doesn't show any benefit to the mains and that a non-grooved lower shell holds a better oil wedge, that may be true but the groove in the lower shell isn't for the mains, it's for oiling the rod bearings
 
the Hank the Crank internal plumbing system was an attempt to fix an 'oiling problem' that surfaced after the original lifters were discarded and the Nodular cast cranks were replaced with supposedly more durable steel cranks. Nodular cast cranks absorb vibrations, steel doesn't, and the steel crank engines developed bearing problems... must be an 'oiling problem', right? to this day the stock Nodular cast cranks are not the weak link in a Cleveland nor are the stock rods up to over 7000 rpm 
 
today even the Roush restrictors have been 1-upped, and it's been argued that they are also a steel crank patch that didn't work. Tim Meyer markets special cam bearings that not only control oil flow on all 5 cam bearings instead of only the rear 4 but also introduce the oil wedge at the 4:00 position instead of 6:00. this means the oil wedge is under the entire bottom of the cam journal rather than only 1/2 of it  


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72 GT Ute
   


Posted By: BackInBlack
Date Posted: 04-February-2012 at 12:15PM
Good post !

Also you can install cam bearings rotate so the stock oil hole faces upward to the block and redrill the correct restrictor hole size in the bearing to face the oil passage way. 

This is a quick fix that doesn't require machining the block for oil restrictors.   

I'm not sure which is better...or if it even matters.

Seems like we can put together a "recipe" of these improvements we learn and post it.   We need more build-ups recipes so we can have a single source of info to answer these questions.

That is also a good point regarding the stock crankshaft.   The stock crank is the same used in a 351boss except the boss was screened and tested with a hardness test.   The only weak link in the rotating assembly is the rod bolts and more namely the rod nuts.   These should be replaced with the best quality ARP bolts.   I also have talked to people running clevelands with stock lower end running to 7K rpm so long as the clearances/oil control is addressed.

Oil wedge on bottom of the cam bearing...can you explain a little more?

BTW...another source for the lifter bore bushings
http://wydendorfmachine.com/reamerkits.html" rel="nofollow - http://wydendorfmachine.com/reamerkits.html

cam bearing reference
http://www.tmeyerinc.com/exclusiveproducts.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.tmeyerinc.com/exclusiveproducts.html


-John


-------------
-John
1973 GTS


Posted By: Rockatansky
Date Posted: 04-February-2012 at 12:37PM
i like the trick where the cam bearings are drilled opposite the original oil hole and installed so the new hole becomes the restrictor, but it only works on the rear 4 positions, the front cam bearing has a lot goin on and can't be flipped
 
the stock cam bearing feeds from the 6:00 position and the oil is drawn by rotation clockwise from the front. from 6:00 on the cam journal is on an oil wedge but before 6:00 it's Good Luck as long as some of the oil stays with the journal all the way around the top. Tim's bearings introduce the oil at around 4:00 so the oil wedge is drawn from the side all the way under the cam journal
http://www.tmeyerinc.com/exclusiveproducts.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.tmeyerinc.com/exclusiveproducts.html


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72 GT Ute
   


Posted By: BackInBlack
Date Posted: 05-February-2012 at 12:19AM
I stand corrected about the external line....

I had always heard that it was bad idea or should be avoided.  This is from that article link I posted above.

http://www.351c.net/wiki/oilingproblems.pdf" rel="nofollow - http://www.351c.net/wiki/oilingproblems.pdf

I also didn't realize that the 2nd lifter bank was fed off #5 main...eek not sure why they did that.  Scratching my head right now.

Obviously, I still have more research to do on this subject.   With all this extra machine work I'm not sure its worth keeping the cleveland.   Maybe build a clevor instead.  That article explains why I have so much lifter noise.


-------------
-John
1973 GTS


Posted By: Rockatansky
Date Posted: 05-February-2012 at 5:55AM
the external line won't hurt anything, some say it won't help anything either but it does change the supply route to the rear main. stock the rear main is last in line to get oil, with the external line the middle main becomes last in line from both ends
 
what Ford and many others did was use the drivers side lifter galley as a reservoir that feeds the mains, installing lifter bore bushings creates a 'priority main' system


-------------
72 GT Ute
   


Posted By: BackInBlack
Date Posted: 05-February-2012 at 6:13AM
Its seems to me that at a minimum the bushings should be installed in the lifter bores and the cam bearings replaced with those you suggested.  Anything else is a stop gap measure.

-------------
-John
1973 GTS


Posted By: Eliteman76
Date Posted: 05-February-2012 at 6:25PM
Thanks guys.
I elected to run a small  external line, the line I have is your typical traded stainless AN line, #3? {or was it#4} AN line fittings, I aware it's a 3/16" or 1/4" ID line I used.
I only did this as a precaution and probably a knee jerk reaction due to an apparent oil PSI drop I had.
Which, was in fact after I had a bad curb in 2009 and the pickup was probably smashed into the cover.

Because I had a bad habit of spinning my engine at 4k on the highway, and also loved to fire through the gears in my top loader, I was concerned about the amount of oil, and oil pressure. This turned out to be of all things, the sending unit was loose and leaking a small bit.

My engine is a mystery rebuild...it was redone by someone at some point, but I have no info, as I bought it for $120 15+ years ago for my old Elite project.

I took the measure of widening a stock CJ baffle pan {another rather stupid deal...dropped my CJ crank on my CJ pan on summer day}
I have heard stories from some of the network 54 guys about the cleveland being able to literally suck a pan dry rather fast on engines running 5K+ for some period of time and figured 8-9 quarts vs the stock 6 can't hurt.

I don't have any good images of the line, but it's pretty much basic.
I know I've done pretty standard things, like making sure to swap out the pedestal fulcrums to steel vs the soft 2v originals, I had the heads gone through about 11 years ago for a hardened seat job and valves.

On the CJ, I am planning on sending it out to MME, because frankly, around here, there just is no one I freaking trust with my cleveland. Too much small block check garbage in the local machine shops.

On good laugh for the night...want to scare a woman? Show her the cost of a full crower engine parts list with one of their crank kits...LOL



-------------
Andrew: Long time Torino guy and GTS.ORG admin


Posted By: ilyes
Date Posted: 06-February-2012 at 1:22AM
did you made a new pick up or still factory, I see your pan is deeper than stock


Posted By: Eliteman76
Date Posted: 06-February-2012 at 5:07AM
Actually, I used a square off the block to confirm the depth measurement of the pickup to the bottom of the oil pan, kept it at 3/8" {10mm} from the bottom if I recall.

The bottom of the pan got crushed and dented pretty badly, so I cut it out, and used parts of a pan off a 400 that I had taken apart some time ago.




-------------
Andrew: Long time Torino guy and GTS.ORG admin


Posted By: Miller Time
Date Posted: 07-February-2012 at 7:32AM
Hi, New Member, enjoy the threads and info. Interesting how the oiling system works. It can rob horse power either thru a lack of oil to left side lifters flattening out or heat build up due to not enough circulation fast enough to cool. Roush figured it out back in the 70's along with Scott Main owner of MPG HS and Cam Research, one of the best builders of Fords and the first Cam builder to flow heads and throw away the other brands cam Profiles to get the right cam/head combinations for Decades. His modification of the oiling system with the re route line talked about by previous members has been around for 35 plus years, long before ebay etc. So a wise investment for any combo and application on Cleveland's and bbf's along with an oil pan that gives enough volume to keep the engine cooler, hence an oil cooler is a very good idea.  I used a double remote filter on my street car back in the mid 70's,  which gives more available horsepower and greater longevity. Well worth the money spent. The cooler the block, the more available horse power.  I've had many combinations of Cleveland's and run into oil starvation at 5800-6000 Rpm on the street and track. All the oil goes to the right side head, bearings spin due to crank starvation. Back then I tried a holley oil cut off switch to protect my motor in my car, with the front lifting so hard, the oil would go to the back of the pan and shut the motor off with the switch, so I pulled the pan, welded a shield around the pump intake so just the screen would fit thru it and all the oil would not go to the back of the pan, then the RPM problem with the oil going to the right head, the car flattened out at upper RPM, Got Scott on the phone and picked up his hydraulic 597/562, put the line on and the rest is history.  So a penny of prevention is worth a pound of Cure, especially if you miss a shift, throw it in reverse etc.   I am glad to see all the interest and information and even some of the young people taking an interest in the vehicles and engines of the past.


Miller Time                                                              "Retired, doesn't mean DEAD"
72 Formal Roof 351C 2V FMX 2500 Stall 3.89s TL
70 Fastback Mustang 4V 4BLT CC 5spd 3.50 TL
70 Falcon small body project
Fresh built 545 Dyno next month!!!
djmmiller@cox.net
Go Mizzou.
Az, Wi, NV, MO



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DM


Posted By: Eliteman76
Date Posted: 07-February-2012 at 1:57PM
Hey Dan...correct me is I am wrong, you still in AZ with that special blue 72{Or was it a 73} formal roof car?



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Andrew: Long time Torino guy and GTS.ORG admin


Posted By: Miller Time
Date Posted: 07-February-2012 at 3:36PM
Hey Andy,


Thanks for remembering, been a long long time.  The blue one and the white one went down the road, along with several ranchero's etc. but who knows, may come back around the block. Interesting how life often repeats itself and you don't have to be a VETERAN with PTSD to experience it...hahaha

I Have a nice clean 72, resto mod, everything but frame off, looking to move that, so I can work on my 70 falcon later this year.

Glad to see the thread on the Crown Vic body mounts, most guys used to use hockey pucks...Yes for real.

Good that you put the oil line on as safety measure, never know when the R's might reach the moon. I meant to say in my thread 6800-7000, most boss 351's shifted at 6000 to 6500 for the 1/4 mile tests from the factory at 13.53 104, memory not as good as it once was. But keeping the oil clean and using the remote oil filter cooler combo keeps the oil cooler and helps longevity. Less heat less wear, more HP.  By the way has there been a forum discussion on the new oils (past 6 yrs) not having zinc and the need to be careful putting non zinc oils in all older motors, Clevelands etc?  Zinc keeps friction down,

Picked up a place in the country, two huge sheds lots of room for cars.  Been warmer past week, working to sort and get stuff up off the floor and on shelves, make it look more like a shop than a pile. Lots of room, lots of land, actual oxygen in the air.

Nice to see your car......sweet.... great  combo and clean. Thinking when I go to Vegas of driving one of mine and stopping by for a cruise.....may have to fly, got 3 more storage units of parts and cars to clean out in Az, but might stop on way back in mid april if your going to be around.

The 545 stroker is done, bushed the lifter galleys for street/strip use, Kaase type Heads CNC'd by Scott MPG, Schneider 600 inch solid 278 @ 50...for now, can go alot bigger with a solid roller, but not friendly for the street, this combo should dyno 650 plus on hp and TQ.will find out soon..its sitting on a engine stand waiting for that moment of ignition and instant thunder. KEE  CHOW!!! Kinda excited to get it in Josh's 70 Montego, need CJ 2 1/8 or 2 1/4 headers if you know anyone, then his 500hp Cleveland goes into my 70 w C4, said it will be my last one, but SH's and we always have a disclaimer like, JUST KIDDING....or another idea, a BETTER IDEA......any.....FORD. 

Cleveland's live despite all the efforts of the unknowledgeable, unwilling, and the UN BRAND, to KILL them.  People will do anything to keep from being beaten by a FORD, but will always ask if it is a CHEVELLE??????? COME ON MAN!!!!

I joined primarily because I saw you are on here. So I know it is all good.

Thanks for your friendship,

Dan 

Miller Time                                                              "Retired, doesn't mean DEAD"
72 Formal Roof 351C 2V FMX 2500 Stall 3.89s TL
70 Fastback Mustang 4V 4BLT CC 5spd 3.50 TL
70 Falcon small body project
Fresh built 545 Dyno next month!!!
djmmiller@cox.net
Go Mizzou.
Az, Wi, NV, MO

DM


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DM


Posted By: BackInBlack
Date Posted: 07-February-2012 at 11:34PM
Nice to see more Ford guys around.   Everywhere I go I'm surrounded by Chevy guys.  Growing up I was the only Ford guy in my group of friends.
 
Aside from oil system fixes. I'm trying to figure out the total cost/work involved to build my cleveland.   Money is an object, but willing to invest if the return in value is there (like getting good heads)   I plan on street/strip and want to target in the 500hp range keeping RPMs <7500.
 
Along with oil system...if you have any links information or other forum threads to point me to I would appreciate it.   I'm torn deciding to put a period correct 429 or build up the cleveland.   I'm leaning toward the cleveland because its the original Q code motor, but if it gets to expensive to build it I'll look for a 429.   Thats why I'm researching all the machine work needed for the oil system.  
 
At least the 429/460 wont have to rev that high to get the HP.
 
Very good information on this link about 351C oil system...and some history.
http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5650045562/m/172102126" rel="nofollow - http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5650045562/m/172102126


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-John
1973 GTS


Posted By: Miller Time
Date Posted: 08-February-2012 at 4:40PM
Great comment, If money is an issue,  Start with the Block, do it right. Then add the great heads and intake, carb later. Do it once, do it right.

Taking a basic Q code, 260 hp open chamber motor 72-74 and going to a 71 boss 351 build is relatively inexpensive and nets about 100 -150hp, 350 - 400. 2k

To get up to 500 hp on motor means adjusting up the cam 630-650 solid or roller, parker or strip dominator intake, up the compression to 12-13, modify the oil system to spin more Rs, possible lifter bore inserts,( I don't think they are needed up to 7k) Extensive block and head work with 2.19 to 2.25 valves,Titanium. big oil pan, h beam rods. add another 2-3k.

A bbf will last much longer at lower RPM's for alot less and you can still put a power adder on to go to 700-900 hp in the future.  3-4k. . No replacement for displacement.  A pro built Kaase is about 9-10k, HMMMM.

I like to refer to the Falcon Build David Kee went thru. The build is at the end of their 4 speed tranny web site. Had they decided in the beginning to go all out, it would have saved alot of time and money. BUT,, and A BIG BUTT, there is alot of FUN going thru the process. They made a plan, changed the plan, changed the plan etc.

I have one of the 70 Falcons and plan to do some thing similar with a cleveland and Big Block Toploader....Another project that is on hold and down the road...

Network 54 has a nice thread on 500 hp cleveland from 2002.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/119419/thread/1037946092/1039206622/Recipe+for+500

Will have two nice fresh broke in Clevelands both with roller rockers, forged pistons, balanced, etc, 2-3k miles 72 2v oc 2800, comp cam, headers, or 72 4v 3800, w cc'd hds 4blt sig erson cam, exhaust manifolds, in cars now, can drive and hear run. I plan on putting them on the classified part area soon.

Dan

    "Retired, doesn't mean DEAD"
72 Formal Roof 351C 2V FMX 2500 Stall 3.89s TL
70 Fastback Mustang 4V 4BLT CC 5spd 3.50 TL
70 Falcon small body project
Fresh built 545 Dyno next month!!!
Go Mizzou.
Az, Wi, NV, MO

DM


-------------
DM


Posted By: lynchster
Date Posted: 08-February-2012 at 5:53PM
Threads like this are exactly why I'm going to install the "back up" engine. It could take me an extra year or two just to sort out the original cobrajet.
The oiling system has been one of the my great internal debates. Not that I haven't seen other pro - con articles involving the external line vs. restrictors and bushings, but the back and forth here is infinitely more helpful. I'm now actually leaning toward oil restriction. That and investing in a second set of crank bearings. I do have two questions for anyone.
1. Is anyone currently using modified cam bearings to substitute for installing restrictors?
2. Is anyone using both restriction and the external oil line?
Thoughts?            
 
This is an awesome thread guys, a credit to it's participants. 


-------------
Chuck
72 Gran Torino Sport
08 Taurus (Maytag)
03 Dakota (Rusty)


Posted By: ilyes
Date Posted: 09-February-2012 at 1:33AM
lots of info, I wonder how much i will pull out from mine, 
I thought about having  lift of around 580, I wonder how much the heads can take without mods, if mine are still stock. Gotta crack open that engine soon


Posted By: BackInBlack
Date Posted: 09-February-2012 at 2:01AM
The conclusions that I'm coming to are dependent upon how you use it:
Street use, cruise night, etc (<5500 to occassionally hit 6K playing at the strip):  Stock is fine with the correct lifters and making sure everything is clearanced properly.  Attention to the lifter bore clearances, main/rod bearing clearances, etc.   Use stock volume/pressure oil pump and maybe increase the oil pan volume as insurance.
 
Heavy Street occasional strip(6-6.5K rpm):   Clearanced and correct oil metering lifters prefer solid cam to reduce oil, restricting cam bearings mentioned previously, external oil line, restrictive push rods.   Stock oil pump with increase oil pan (351C boss 6qt, looks stock but has baffling and oil dip stick registered for 6qt) and pickup.  Oil cooler is beneficial.
 
Street/strip Performance (7K + rpm):   Lifter bushings a must.   Oil restrictors for teh cam bearings or use the pre-fabbed cam bearings mentioned earlier on this thread.  Oil restrictor push rods (I plan to use the tapered type with Yella Terra rockers)   Full groove main bearings like the 351Boss, this will require 2 main bearing sets using the halves from each with the groove.  This give oil to the rods through the full rotation of the engine.   Carefull attention to clearances is important but the main and rod bearing clearances are loosened slightly to 0.0020-0.0025 main and 0.0025-0.0030 rod.    Stock or modified for more pressure oil pump with a larger oil pan with improved pickup a must (7qt min prolly best for insurance).   Definitely an oil cooler to boost reliabilty.
 
I think this is a concise summary....without to many details.  We prolly can expand this list
Comments?   Did I get an overall summary list here?
-John


-------------
-John
1973 GTS


Posted By: BackInBlack
Date Posted: 09-February-2012 at 2:08AM
Originally posted by lynchster lynchster wrote:

Threads like this are exactly why I'm going to install the "back up" engine. It could take me an extra year or two just to sort out the original cobrajet.
The oiling system has been one of the my great internal debates. Not that I haven't seen other pro - con articles involving the external line vs. restrictors and bushings, but the back and forth here is infinitely more helpful. I'm now actually leaning toward oil restriction. That and investing in a second set of crank bearings. I do have two questions for anyone.
1. Is anyone currently using modified cam bearings to substitute for installing restrictors?
2. Is anyone using both restriction and the external oil line?
Thoughts?            
 
This is an awesome thread guys, a credit to it's participants. 
If you do the lifter bushings you wont need the external line.   That is my understanding from researching of this topic.   I'm wondering if you connect the lifter galleries at the front of the motor to help balance the oil distribution between the 2 banks....prolly overkill and I didn't see any background info from racers in the past doing this.

-------------
-John
1973 GTS


Posted By: ilyes
Date Posted: 09-February-2012 at 2:09AM
I'm going all out on that engine, I want a power band to start around 4500-5000 and plan to spin it up to 7000-7500.
I'm going with solid flat tappet, bushing on lifters, and everything in between. 
I want to take my block apart to see what the previous engine builder did, it might save me a bit of money.


Posted By: Rockatansky
Date Posted: 09-February-2012 at 5:26AM
Originally posted by lynchster lynchster wrote:

1. Is anyone currently using modified cam bearings to substitute for installing restrictors?
2. Is anyone using both restriction and the external oil line?
Thoughts? 
 
http://www.351C.net" rel="nofollow - www.351C.net member Chris Kelly  http://raceabilene.com/kelly/hotrod/index.html" rel="nofollow - http://raceabilene.com/kelly/hotrod/index.html has/had the cam bearings flipped & drilled for an orifice in his engine, pretty sure it has since been retired or it may be still in service i'm not sure
 
more than a few members there are also running the external line and internal restrictors, here's a link to the Build forum, take a gander and see if anybody lists their mods
http://www.network54.com/Forum/263038/" rel="nofollow - http://www.network54.com/Forum/263038/
 
i have Tim Meyers bearings still not yet installed, block is getting bushed on at least 1 side, maybe i'll go all the way and do both sides not $ure yet. external line can be added/removed any time


-------------
72 GT Ute
   


Posted By: Eliteman76
Date Posted: 09-February-2012 at 6:23PM
Nice to see you here Dan, always good to have another Torino guy in our midst.

{Not to get off topic, BUT does Sam still have the convertible Mark 5? }

See, to be honest, originally I figured I'd just have my CJ bushed, and have the heads cleaned up.
I know Mark are MME caching was suggesting to either find a set of closed chamber heads, or aftermarket heads over my '72 CJ OC 4v heads.
I really do want to build my CJ and put it back where it belongs. I did take your suggestions some time back and had discussed with Scott at MPG, super nice guy over the phone.

It was posed to me "What do you want out of the engine, what are you planning on doing with it" by both Mark and Scott, respectively.

In my case, I just want to have a good, solid street engine. I was asked what sort of HP level I thought I needed, and to be honest, I am not concerned about a monster peak HP number. What I want is something with torque to push your ass into the trunk...even at 50 MPH when I slam it into high gear and hit the go pedal.

To me, if I get a car with 350-400 HP, honestly, I am fine with it. Just want good parts that will last a long time.
As the saying goes...you can have a very bright candle with a short fuse, or have a long burning candle with just the right amount of light.

Personally...I'd love to do a turbo or supercharger build but bah, not for me. I like the KISS mentality.
If I can find some '71 Boss 4v CC 4v heads, I'd just reuse my stock CJ crank and rods, ARP fasteners, and probably an RPM air gap intake and performer carb. I'd love to do a webber EFI setup with 8 stacks. One of those love/lust things I guess.

I'd like to long term, honestly go with a company like Trickflow.
This is something that catches my interest.
EFI intake setup, use a 460 TFI distributor, roller cam setup, and look into a set of good heads.
Back it with a 6 speed and I am good.


-------------
Andrew: Long time Torino guy and GTS.ORG admin


Posted By: BackInBlack
Date Posted: 09-February-2012 at 11:51PM
I want to do something similar as you Andy, but I want to pull more HP out of it.   To do that you either increase displacement or spin the motor faster....or both.   Perhaps a cast stroker kit with I beam rods...Scat 9000 crank and rods, forged pistons, bearings/rings, etc.   I have found for $1200 online.   Compared to all the machine work, shot peening, etc. It seems like a good value trade.
 
Spinning it faster will require those oil mods.  I dont want to risk blowing the motor after making that investment.   Unless your doing a stock rebuild...Its not worth the risk to me to go half way.   I'm going to do all the oil mods (full bushings)  to spin it to 7K+ rpm. 
 
I have the same ideas about EFI...I was looking at the Mass-flo setup since its a turn-key solution.  Time vs money...   I dont have much of either right now.   Other EFI option was using a Ford EDIS system, cam sensor from a 302 Explorer with the housing of a 351C dist.   Taking a 302 Mustang harness/computer and using that trick flow intake.   I dont think that intake will fit under a hood.   Have you done any measurements with that to check?
 
I think the Mass flo setup will be less expensive in teh end and fit under the hood.
 
-John


-------------
-John
1973 GTS


Posted By: Miller Time
Date Posted: 11-February-2012 at 7:42AM
Hi Andy, Sam still has it, love that car. I have the heads, pm.

I like your plan, Most Clevelands with that kind of HP are Rolling Thumpers. like our Montego.

My son Josh, Monte1go, 70 Montego, has a approx 500 hp cleveland, (will dyno along w 545 bbf sometime in the spring) good rods, balanced, stock stroke, parker intake, 950 carb, huge fuel system, 2 in hookers, iron closed chamber heads w the big valves, port plates, Scott's 670 lift solid, ...oil line..., 8 qt pan, c4 w 3500 and 4k convertors, 4.56's. broke in last year, look to run this spring, has not been over 7000 up to this point. Plans are to run 11.51 index, car is without cage.  Up in the air, Changing flywheel, convertor from 3500-4k, taking bent bars off, prob go to South Side bars etc, Track opens April 7th.

put about 1k in fuel system getting it to the point that you can get the HP out of what you have.

Most people have a HP number based on Advertising, when in fact it could be a lot higher with a better fuel system. Trying to get better HP without upgrading the fuel system won't happen.

Back in the 70's I ran 13.6 index with street tires and mufflers, Torker intake, 1 3/4" primaries, small by todays standards, 3/8 fuel line and a little holley elec pump, 4.56s C6 2500 convertor. using a similar setup today with 3500 stall, parker or strip dominator,  2 inch primaries, 5/8 line and with fuel cell, big fuel pump w return line would run mid 11's.  And that is about what your thinking of doing. I can ask Josh if he wants to sell his motor???? I really don't know if he would. He loves to build Clevelands and fuel systems, though, so he might.

http://www.hotrodpitstop.com/tool.php is a calculator to run some numbers, experiment with weight of your car w you and yours in it.  Remember unless it specify's,  HP is measured at the Crank.

I like the fuel injection idea, would like to do that on our 545, but cost is always a big factor.

Dan

"Retired, doesn't mean DEAD"
72 Formal Roof 351C 2V FMX 2500 Stall 3.89s TL
70 Fastback Mustang 4V 4BLT CC 5spd 3.50 TL
70 Falcon small body project
Fresh 545 Dyno coming!!!
djmmiller@cox.net
Go Mizzou.
Az, Wi, NV, MO











-------------
DM



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