More Engine Ideas (was TMeyer 400 Kit)
Printed From: The Ford Torino Page
Category: Powertrain Specific Forum
Forum Name: 335 Series Engine Forum
Forum Description: 351C, 351M and 400 engines
URL: https://forum.grantorinosport.org/forum_posts.asp?TID=4717
Printed Date: 26-March-2026 at 2:22PM
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.06 - https://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: More Engine Ideas (was TMeyer 400 Kit)
Posted By: occupant
Subject: More Engine Ideas (was TMeyer 400 Kit)
Date Posted: 12-December-2010 at 8:27AM
I know Tim is a busy guy, so I wanted to ask this here (and on the busy 335 section of FTE) what else I would need besides this kit...
Balanced 400 Rotating Assembly $1199.00 ...and these bits from Summmit: CompCams Dual Energy 265DEH with lifters, valve springs and seals, timing set ($408) CompCams stamped steel rocker arms, 1.73 ratio ($145) ARP Intake Manifold Bolts ($27) ARP Cylinder Head Bolts ($79) ARP Main Cap Bolts ($33) Airtex Fuel Pump ($21) FelPro Valley Pan and intake gasket and sealant ($34) Milodon Oil Pan Bolts ($7) Mr. Gasket Overhaul Set ($44) Sealed Power Oil Pump (std vol/std press) ($33) Sealed Power Cam Bearings (set of 5) ($28) Summit High Volume Water Pump ($65) ...and these Machine Shop Charges: clean and prep block $75 (incl Magnaflux, honing, freeze plugs) bore 8 cylinders to .030/.040 $80 cam bearing installation $35 hook 8 rods & pistons $48 clean and prep 2 heads $120 Total from Summit $894.00 plus $12.95 shipping Total from TMeyer $1199.00 plus $??.?? shipping Total from Ennis Machine Shop $358.00 plus tax on parts I'm looking at $2460ish already and that's assuming my block, heads, and intake are all good and usable. I'm also not sure if that kit from TMeyer is a straight up 400 or some kind of stroker kit. Either way it's enough bits to turn my 351M into a 400. I would also need soft parts and sensors and such, radiator hoses, filters, fluids, belts, all that. I just want to be sure I'm not missing anything or buying more than I need. It will be what I do with tax refund money in February. My wife gets a few thousand towards her Explorer, the house gets a fat principal payment, the kids will get new summer clothes and a few other things. For now I'm about to drop the hammer on a http://www.lonestaronline.com/listings/details/index.cfm?itemnum=975711781#TOP - 1993 Chrysler New Yorker from an impound auction. It's $250 now and I hope to get it for under $400. I talked to the driver who towed it in and he says it drives fine, guy was hauled in on a domestic violence warrant and he had a handgun in it, violating his restraining order. He's not getting out for a couple years. This ought to get me around fine for awhile and save me a ton of money on oil. I'm definitely taking that purple tint off the one window, though! ------------- 15 Cruze LT, 145K, for the wife 08 Uplander LS, 280K, broken again 08 Explorer EB, 248K, backup work car still looking for another something |
Replies:
Posted By: ilyes
Date Posted: 12-December-2010 at 8:46AM
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gonna need a new torque converter, oil transmission cooler, carburetor, plugs, headers, at least dizzy cap and arrow, break-in oil, 2 oil filters, 10 quarts of oil, assembly lube, loctite, coolant, air filter, fuel filter, ... trust me, be there, done that, parts list is always getting bigger and bigger
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Posted By: occupant
Date Posted: 12-December-2010 at 1:58PM
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And of course as soon as I post this, I come up with something else. Another pipe dream I'm sure, but this one might work if I can get the cash in time...
'72 351CJ complete less carb for $500, 10K into a rebuild with RV cam I'll need a carb, SBF bellhousing for the FMX (found a no good FMX for $25 has the bellhousing I need), and not sure what else. I'm hoping this has the older 70-71 intake on it so I can use any square bore carb (Edelbrocks all over DFW CL for $100ish), or slap a $20 adapter on it and use my 2150 for now. That or I have to locate a usable 4300D carb. Yikes. I'm also hoping the 351M exhaust manifolds will fit it. If not, I may be out another $200+ for a pair of 4V manifolds. Guy claims it runs out nice but he needed the carb for his 351W Fox body Mustang. I just got paid for the Snap-On bits I sold so I have like $160 so far. Friday is payday and I might add $300 to that. I hope it's enough for him, and he said he'll drop it off at the shop in town here. Then I gotta save up for whatever other bits and the $400 or so in labor to install it all. I might have my car running strong by mid-January. Then $400 of tires and I'll be good to make the show in September. So as far as this thread goes. I don't know. Wish I could retitle it. ------------- 15 Cruze LT, 145K, for the wife 08 Uplander LS, 280K, broken again 08 Explorer EB, 248K, backup work car still looking for another something |
Posted By: Regul8r
Date Posted: 12-December-2010 at 2:10PM
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I was gonna say... WTF!?
$2500??
If you had that much money sitting around you could find an already BUILT and RUNNING motor from someone.
NO WAY would I do $2500 on parts to put in your car. Heck that's not even counting all the little things you need!
Glad you found something more resonable! ------------- Carl Corey (Moderator/Event Coordinator) Contact ANYTIME! 1976 Ford Elite "Lola Mae" 97 Suzuki Intruder 1400 US Army Retired |
Posted By: occupant
Date Posted: 13-December-2010 at 5:20AM
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Yeah if I could come up with nearly 3K then I could get a racing kind of motor. Like this http://dallas.craigslist.org/mdf/pts/2084474210.html - Keith Craft 331 short block for $1000 and then a pair of aluminum heads. Or this http://dallas.craigslist.org/ftw/pts/2066619716.html - late 90s Cobra engine complete with ECM and all for $1850.
I think the 351CJ will work. I can change bellhousing to SBF for like $25. Then I think the motor mounts will be the same, if not, I'm sure I can find someone with a Q-code on here who swapped to a 429 or something and buy their mounts. Everything else will be things I'd already be buying, like belts, hoses, plugs, wires, etc. This guy and I are playing phone tag now. edit1: 351C and 351M-400 motor mounts are ALMOST the same and http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Ford-351C-351M-400M-Rubber-Motor-Mounts,8036.html - available in repro for $39.99 a set so I'm certainly willing to spend the $40 to have the right shape and not worry about a third bolt hole not attached to anything. edit2: he's willing to hold it til this weekend so I'm bugging the wife for more work projects we can bill between now and Friday...even if I have to leave it at my mechanic's shop for a couple weeks to save up for the carb, mounts, bellhousing, and his labor, I'm willing to do all that if he has an engine stand available to hold it. QUESTION: would I want to use the flexplate and converter from my 351M-FMX I have now, or pick something else out? I believe this CJ has a flexplate but no converter, and was hooked up to a small pattern C6. So maybe I should put my bits on instead? ------------- 15 Cruze LT, 145K, for the wife 08 Uplander LS, 280K, broken again 08 Explorer EB, 248K, backup work car still looking for another something |
Posted By: lynchster
Date Posted: 13-December-2010 at 5:57AM
If it's a 4 bolt main and not hogged out over .030 it's golden. ------------- Chuck 72 Gran Torino Sport 13 Taurus SHO "Mr Pig" |
occupant wrote:Posted By: occupant
Date Posted: 13-December-2010 at 8:13AM
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He says the rebuild was 4 years and 10K ago and it's .030 over with an RV cam. I think that's going to be appropriate for this car. ------------- 15 Cruze LT, 145K, for the wife 08 Uplander LS, 280K, broken again 08 Explorer EB, 248K, backup work car still looking for another something |
Posted By: occupant
Date Posted: 13-December-2010 at 12:08PM
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OK, guy called back and I managed to catch him this time. It's got an Edelbrock manifold so I can use a regular square bore carb on it. No fruitless 4300D searching! It's only been out of his truck for a month. Ready to drop a carb on and go. He also said if I can come get it when he comes back in town Friday morning, he'll take $400. I'm ecstatic! ------------- 15 Cruze LT, 145K, for the wife 08 Uplander LS, 280K, broken again 08 Explorer EB, 248K, backup work car still looking for another something |
Posted By: Regul8r
Date Posted: 13-December-2010 at 3:55PM
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GOOD DEAL!
------------- Carl Corey (Moderator/Event Coordinator) Contact ANYTIME! 1976 Ford Elite "Lola Mae" 97 Suzuki Intruder 1400 US Army Retired |
Posted By: occupant
Date Posted: 14-December-2010 at 12:45AM
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Local mechanic claims he has a few older square bore carbs and at least one says Motorcraft on it, he thinks a couple are fresh enough to go right on, $50-$100 depending on what he finds on his shelf. Maybe it's a 4150/4160 or something that would look right. Or I can spend about $100-$150 on CL or eBay and get a pretty fresh Holley or Edelbrock. Worst case, a http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EDL-9905/ - reman Edelbrock 1405 carb is $199 at Summit right now . ------------- 15 Cruze LT, 145K, for the wife 08 Uplander LS, 280K, broken again 08 Explorer EB, 248K, backup work car still looking for another something |
Posted By: ilyes
Date Posted: 14-December-2010 at 1:12AM
| i find few companies that sell rebuilt car for the same price or less, they also sell carters, deamon, rochester for 170$-200$ |
Posted By: occupant
Date Posted: 14-December-2010 at 1:51AM
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Wife just informed me our main client is thrilled with our performance for this calendar year. She got a $1000 Christmas bonus which she can invoice for Friday morning, and both of us got dollar per hour raises (so I now make $12/hr and she makes $14/hr). She's willing to share some of it, so that covers the $400 labor for the install.
Anyone want to take bets on when my car will be roadworthy with the 351CJ? LOL...seems to be a recurring theme around here. I'll make a thread about it as soon as I walk in the door Friday after dropping the motor and my car off at Windell's shop. I'll make that dropoff Friday, then I'll have the weekend to gather the SBF FMX bellhousing and a carb of some sort if none of his work, and I could be driving my car without the crazy oil burning by Christmas! I don't need a lot of carb. There's 550cfm Holleys out there, I think one of those would be ideal, or a 600cfm Holley or Edelbrock. I do miss the simplicity of the Edelbrock carbs I had on Strong Bad I and II. The 302 in Strong Bad I was over-carb'd, but I was able to swap to smaller jets in front and make it not too bad. That truck's biggest problem was the choke so I made it manual using the stock choke cable. I don't want a choke cable on this car so I want electric. I think that means the 1406 Edelbrock, which costs a little more new but is the most common used one I see on eBay and CL. One 1406 has been sitting for 3mos and is $80. I think that's fresh enough to just put on and go. I can rebuild it later if it starts leaking or something. ------------- 15 Cruze LT, 145K, for the wife 08 Uplander LS, 280K, broken again 08 Explorer EB, 248K, backup work car still looking for another something |
Posted By: ilyes
Date Posted: 14-December-2010 at 2:34AM
| if only i could pass by, you could save those 400$, but i'm pretty sure i can't come this month, even in january |
Posted By: occupant
Date Posted: 14-December-2010 at 2:55AM
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Oh it's all good, it was either this or spend a ton of money to rebuild my engine. The CJ will be a lot better than the M and it'll still hook up the same except for the bellhousing.
Just dropped Amy's truck off over there and took a look at the carbs he has. He has a bunch of shelf garbage but one of them is in real good shape, 650cfm Edelbrock Thunder AVS with electric choke. He wants $100 for it. I think that will be almost perfect although I'd rather have that 1406 economy Performer carb. Oh well. I'd rather support this guy than drive all the way to Dallas for a 1406, or buy one new. Because if he goes out of business, I'll have to go to Hubbard for mechanical work I can't do myself. ------------- 15 Cruze LT, 145K, for the wife 08 Uplander LS, 280K, broken again 08 Explorer EB, 248K, backup work car still looking for another something |
Posted By: torkair
Date Posted: 15-December-2010 at 6:04AM
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I just saw this, glad your getting a good motor in there! As for the motor mounts, the M block mounts and the 351CJ mounts are way off, a Cleveland uses plain old small block mounts and the M block motors have their own special mounts (a total PITA for sure). Anyhow, I have the mounts you need in good condition as well as a Holley 600 with vac secondaries that are just sitting around collecting dust if you're interested, just let me know.
------------- 72 Gran Torino "sport"- in progress 73 Ranchero GT- Q code-460/C6/3.25 open rear |
Posted By: occupant
Date Posted: 15-December-2010 at 10:49AM
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I might need a pair of those then. Westar sells them pretty cheap, about $10 each plus tax and $9 shipping for $34.20 total. They also sell 429 and 351M/400 mounts. Found them at Racepages.com, in stock and ready to rock. Are these what I need?
Passenger Side 
Driver Side 
I think I'll stick with my mechanic's carburetor since it's Edelbrock, same as the manifold, matching parts will sell better later if I decide to go a different route. I'm thinking eventually I'd want to go back to Motorcraft parts, a stock 70-71 intake and a 4150 or 4160 carb. Torkair, do let me know via PM what you need for your mounts shipped to 76660 and if you'll take PayPal I'll just buy yours and let Windell know it might be a few days before I can get those to him. Incidentally, RockAuto has Anchor branded mounts, the passenger is cheaper ($7) but the driver side is more ($16). Comes out to $39 shipped from them. Not only are they more expensive, they're a non-stock item and therefore suffer from delayed shipping. I bet there's more sources for these since they're being repro'd by at least one company but can't imagine them being much cheaper! ------------- 15 Cruze LT, 145K, for the wife 08 Uplander LS, 280K, broken again 08 Explorer EB, 248K, backup work car still looking for another something |
Posted By: Rockatansky
Date Posted: 15-December-2010 at 11:20AM
| ANCHOR # 2370 & 2371, you can usually find an online discount code for Rock Auto |
Posted By: lynchster
Date Posted: 15-December-2010 at 4:12PM
I have a potential kernal of information to share. I just did a 351M to 302 swap this summer. Different engine same motor mounts.
Judging from the photos above they will be from a source outside the US.
It just so happened we had some "tweeking" to do installing the engine/transmission.
First we wound up opening up the holes a bit where they fit up to block to shift them. Next it was better to leave the bolts loose as we had to shift the engine/transmission a bit to line up the transmission mount. It'll work but it ain't drop in. The worse parts were the headers (couldn't find manifolds) and the plenum for the a/c just sits there mocking you the whole time.
Chuck
------------- Chuck 72 Gran Torino Sport 13 Taurus SHO "Mr Pig" |
Posted By: Rockatansky
Date Posted: 15-December-2010 at 5:13PM
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351M & 400 use a 3 bolt to the block engine mount
289, 302/5.0, 351W & 351C use a 2 bolt to the block engine mount
there's no way either group can use the other mounts and make it work
2 bolt mounts in a 72+ Torino are side specific to set the engine angle in the chassis, many other similar looking 2 bolt mounts are the same for both sides(71- Torino, Mustangs, Montegos...)
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Posted By: lynchster
Date Posted: 16-December-2010 at 12:06PM
I referencing the the fact that he will be swaping to the same style motor mounts I had to swap to when I installed the 302 / AOD.
Chuck ------------- Chuck 72 Gran Torino Sport 13 Taurus SHO "Mr Pig" |
Posted By: occupant
Date Posted: 16-December-2010 at 1:43PM
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Works for me.
It's on for in the morning. Gonna throw a piece of plywood in the back of the Durango, throw a plastic dropcloth on it, hit an ATM, and head for this shop where it is. 351CJ will be in my mechanic's hands by afternoon. Once I get back in the house I have PayPal funds for Torkair and EliteMan76. Sometime over the weekend or on Monday I'll be headed up to Flower Mound to get that $15 transmission with the bellhousing I need. I'll inventory what all the engine has and doesn't have and make a RockAuto cart from there (I'll probably get plugs, wireset, cap, rotor, a few feet of vacuum hose, who knows what else). I'm too excited to sleep. Gonna be hell trying to work in the morning knowing I'll only be a few hours away from repowering my car with something SOLID. ------------- 15 Cruze LT, 145K, for the wife 08 Uplander LS, 280K, broken again 08 Explorer EB, 248K, backup work car still looking for another something |
Posted By: occupant
Date Posted: 18-December-2010 at 6:10AM
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That was easy.
Went down to Lowe's, picked up a plastic dropcloth and some bungees, went to the guy's house, fired it up, sounded good though the carb he had on it was garbage (750cfm Edelbrock, manual choke, missing butterfly and only bolted down with 2 nuts). Then he pulled the T-18 off the back, pulled the clutch and flywheel, put the flexplate on, and we loaded it up. 110-120 on all cylinders. It's a strong motor. But alas, it only has 2V heads on it. It's at the mechanic's shop, he's going to pull the truck manifolds off (one has a broken stud on the pipe end anyway) and get the carburetor changed. I'm waiting on someone to invoice me through PayPal and I'll have mounts on the way, and then I need to locate a bellhousing. The $15 one in Flower Mound might be it, even though I'll spend $30 in gas to go get it. I'll be calling local transmission shops and junkyards to check for a closer one before I go all the way up there. I put the nicer fan shroud from the wagon in the back of the Torino and told my mechanic to toss the one in there now. He'll source radiator hoses and bend a gas line for the carb that won't be in the way of the AC bracket like it is now. And then add an inline plastic filter before the pump. It's a BRAND new fuel pump on there. I'm happy about that and the fact it runs so easily even with a garbage carb on it. So it's on. I won't see the car done before Christmas, but as long as I supply the bellhousing and mounts in time, I'll have it the week after. ------------- 15 Cruze LT, 145K, for the wife 08 Uplander LS, 280K, broken again 08 Explorer EB, 248K, backup work car still looking for another something |
Posted By: stanman
Date Posted: 18-December-2010 at 8:49AM
| I think the 2V heads are better for low-end torque than the 4V's anyway. If you liked driving your car with the old engine you're gonna LOVE driving it now. It'll be a real sleeper, even more so with a better rear end ratio. 3:50's would be ideal IMO, when funds allow. |
Posted By: occupant
Date Posted: 21-December-2010 at 2:34PM
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I'm good with my 2.75, the way I drive I could put a 200cid six in it and still have more pedal than I need. But I will enjoy the power because it's there when it's appropriate to do so. I feel bad because I wanted to dyno the worn out 351M before it came out. I wanted to see how much it could still pull, because it was pretty quick to 50-55 or so and after that it was slow but it kept pulling. I had no trouble hitting 90-95mph a year ago but due to crappy tires I was afraid to see how much more it had in it.
That said, I have some 351C specific questions. This engine has ERSON valve covers. On one side there is a breather filter, big chrome thing. On the other side is a 2-port PCV valve with a fat rubber grommet on the bottom. They look similar to these Pontiac ones I found on eBay: 
Since valve covers from 351C, 351M, and 400 interchange, can I just use my stock 351M valve covers on it? Since I'm bolting this up to an FMX, I need the bellhousing. But since this WAS sitting in front of a C6 at one point, it has a block separation plate for such. So will that one work? Or do I need to find one for a 351C to match an FMX? Also related, do I use the 351C flexplate which was for the C6 or should I use the one from my 351M engine? Also related, will the stock converter work with what I'm working with? I don't want a high stall or anything. I want to use this converter. I just want to be sure it will work with the other bellhousing, the other flexplate if needed, things like that. ------------- 15 Cruze LT, 145K, for the wife 08 Uplander LS, 280K, broken again 08 Explorer EB, 248K, backup work car still looking for another something |
Posted By: Rockatansky
Date Posted: 21-December-2010 at 5:51PM
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V-covers will work
block plate should work as they're both 164 tooth flex's
i've used the FMX flex in a C6 in 2 different swaps so it should work the other way also
stock FMX converter will be fine but check the crank pilot diameter to make sure it correct for the Cleveland crank. i'd test fit the converter to the flex with the flex on the crank to be sure you won't have issues at the wrong moment. as long as the converter has the right pilot & stud pattern you should be good. if there's a drain plug in the converter but no hole in the flex you can make one
forgot to say that the C6 inspection cover holes may not match the FMX
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/FORD-C4-164-FMX-INSPECTION-PLATE-MUSTANG-289-302-351-/160521913580?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item255fda04ec - http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/FORD-C4-164-FMX-INSPECTION-PLATE-MUSTANG-289-302-351-/160521913580?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item255fda04ec
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/FORD-C6-AOD-INSPECTION-PLATE-MUSTANG-289-302-351-FORD-/160519640358?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item255fb75526 - http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/FORD-C6-AOD-INSPECTION-PLATE-MUSTANG-289-302-351-FORD-/160519640358?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item255fb75526
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Posted By: occupant
Date Posted: 22-December-2010 at 1:24AM
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Awesome, thank you, that simplifies things, flexplate and block plate can stay in place and the FMX inspection plate can just go back on since I am definitely using the FMX that shifts great and not the C6 I didn't grab which was dead anyway.
I'll make sure Windell test fits the converter. If it doesn't work, do I just need to find another FMX converter with a different pilot diameter? I wonder if those Erson valve covers have any value...might have to throw those on eBay. I may see if I can get a pair of valve covers from a nice dry junkyard engine that way I don't have to try and sell the 351M without any. ------------- 15 Cruze LT, 145K, for the wife 08 Uplander LS, 280K, broken again 08 Explorer EB, 248K, backup work car still looking for another something |
Posted By: Rockatansky
Date Posted: 22-December-2010 at 5:39AM
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everything has some value... to someone, but i think you can get foil thick chromies for about $18 these days. i'm sure somebody will grab them if you put them up, and they're having a 'no listing fee sale' so you'll save an additional 23 cents!
i'm pretty confident that the converter will be right but yeah, just a correct stock FMX converter for your stud pattern & pilot diameter
might wanna pop a new front seal in while you have access
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Posted By: lynchster
Date Posted: 26-December-2010 at 9:03AM
Are we there yet? Are we there yet?....... ------------- Chuck 72 Gran Torino Sport 13 Taurus SHO "Mr Pig" |
Posted By: occupant
Date Posted: 26-December-2010 at 4:30PM
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Nothing new. Waiting on motor mounts from RacePages and will get the bellhousing Monday or Tuesday. Not much else to do at the moment. My mechanic is kinda pissed at me for not having this ready. He left my hood and driver door open over Christmas Eve and Christmas. I closed them this morning on my way to get donuts when I saw it. *grrr*
Just played around with CompCams software. For 2V heads (2.05int/1.65exh valves), dual plane intake, 600cfm carb, .030 overbore, 9.0:1 compression, the best fit cam is the 265DEH (I knew that somehow, and am not surprised) With a completely stock exhaust, leaving the cats on, stock muffler, pump gas, and nothing else special, this engine should pull 258hp@4500rpm and 343ft-lbs torque @3500rpm. Nice. Way better than whatever this poor 351M was getting, knowing that it was 152hp and 276lbs of torque NEW and it's probably worn to half that. Now when I search for an "RV" cam for a 351C I keep coming across higher duration (282/292) cams but with the same 484/510 lift. I'm not sure what's in there now. I may not know until it needs rebuilt again. But if it's got the same lift and a longer duration, I just hope it has a good idle quality. What I like is armchair racing with it. If I change to short tube headers and no cats, I go from 258hp to 310hp. Torque jumps from 343 to 390! If I switch over to heads that resemble the 4V heads (2.17int, 1.73 exh valve size, ported) it jumps to 385hp and 418tq. Add a little more carb (650cfm) and a high-flow dual-plane intake and it's 415hp and 432tq. So yes, small changes make a lot of difference. What I like is that the 265DEH cam still works well for all those changes above. Just the small tube headers give 60hp. That will absolutely be my first change then. The other things (4V heads, more carb, more intake flow, more porting) don't make as big of difference. Edit: hood is off my car now, 351M is out and on the floor in the shop. I'm headed to go get the bellhousing later this morning and hope the motor mounts show up quick. Everything else is bought (oil, filters, hoses, belts, coolant, clamps, etc) and ready to rock. I have my ad up on CL for the leftover bits I'll have. If all goes well I'll make most of the labor money back selling bits! Edit 2: bellhousing is delivered to the shop, still waiting on motor mounts, hoping pilot diameter whachamacallit matches up... ------------- 15 Cruze LT, 145K, for the wife 08 Uplander LS, 280K, broken again 08 Explorer EB, 248K, backup work car still looking for another something |
Posted By: occupant
Date Posted: 29-December-2010 at 1:58AM
I just got an email from racepages this morning... ...they cancelled my order because they don't have any in stock after I CALLED TO MAKE SURE THEY DID HAVE THEM...
the lousy  lyin' grovelin' cotton pickin' boot lickin' snivelin' no good punks!
Now I have to scrounge around and see what I can come up with on short notice. Pilot appears to be 1.375" on both counts. I should be good to go. ------------- 15 Cruze LT, 145K, for the wife 08 Uplander LS, 280K, broken again 08 Explorer EB, 248K, backup work car still looking for another something |
Posted By: Rockatansky
Date Posted: 29-December-2010 at 3:14AM
| http://www.retailmenot.com/view/rockauto.com - http://www.retailmenot.com/view/rockauto.com |
Posted By: occupant
Date Posted: 29-December-2010 at 4:04AM
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yes and they add several business days to the order, probably because they're not sure if it's in stock, I've already looked there and it seems everyone is out of stock of these things, yet they claim they can get them but in reality they can't...reminds me of vaporware
I'm having a yard pull something asap. The place in Dallas (County line Classics) and they're not in til the 3rd. I just need to find something somewhere... edit: coming from Oklahoma and should be here Friday. Ouch. edit2: they called and cancelled, turns out the yard monkeys torched off the mounts when they pulled the engines...DOH!!! edit3: torkair covered it for me edit4: no snow, but it was raining on Christmas Day for awhile...not sure how he thought an open carb with nothing covering it would not cause a problem when I go to sell the 351M to someone... ------------- 15 Cruze LT, 145K, for the wife 08 Uplander LS, 280K, broken again 08 Explorer EB, 248K, backup work car still looking for another something |
Posted By: Rockatansky
Date Posted: 29-December-2010 at 6:39AM
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so what's this guy's problem leaving your car open?
even in TX, did it snow & get wet inside?
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Posted By: torkair
Date Posted: 29-December-2010 at 6:42AM
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Send me your address, I have 2 sets of mounts and can get them in the mail TODAY. I can send priority mail, that way they should be there by Thursday or Friday at the latest.
------------- 72 Gran Torino "sport"- in progress 73 Ranchero GT- Q code-460/C6/3.25 open rear |
Posted By: torkair
Date Posted: 29-December-2010 at 9:52AM
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Motor mounts are on the way!!!
------------- 72 Gran Torino "sport"- in progress 73 Ranchero GT- Q code-460/C6/3.25 open rear |
Posted By: occupant
Date Posted: 01-January-2011 at 1:55PM
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left Woodway (waco) this morning at 1am, so expect it to be here Monday and I can run it over to Windell's shop. He has the 351M out now, valve covers and oil pans swapped, bell is on the transmission, he's just waiting on those mounts. Mailman should be here 10am Monday. I'll meet him at the curb, run the other mail inside, then walk across town to the shop and I might get the car back Monday afternoon or Tuesday maybe. Not sure how much else needs done but it looked like the mounts were all he was waiting on...
Very excited here, can't wait to not burn a gallon of oil per tank of fuel! ------------- 15 Cruze LT, 145K, for the wife 08 Uplander LS, 280K, broken again 08 Explorer EB, 248K, backup work car still looking for another something |
Posted By: stanman
Date Posted: 01-January-2011 at 3:05PM
| You'll have the motor and install paid for in oil savings alone! |
Posted By: occupant
Date Posted: 02-January-2011 at 4:11AM
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Technically it would take 26,000 miles in oil savings to cover the whole thing, but selling off the extra bits will bring that down some. The 351M engine as a long block, the 2-barrel intake/carb, the big FMX bell, the M-block motor mounts, the Erson valve covers, all that I think I can fetch 300-400 for over time. That takes the mileage to amortize the swap cost down to around 17,000 miles. ------------- 15 Cruze LT, 145K, for the wife 08 Uplander LS, 280K, broken again 08 Explorer EB, 248K, backup work car still looking for another something |
Posted By: torkair
Date Posted: 04-January-2011 at 3:50PM
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I hope the motor mounts got there safe and sound!
------------- 72 Gran Torino "sport"- in progress 73 Ranchero GT- Q code-460/C6/3.25 open rear |
Posted By: occupant
Date Posted: 05-January-2011 at 12:20AM
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They did and they are on and the CJ is sitting on them now. He still hasn't hooked other things up and I'm just hoping he doesn't need anything else at this point. You should have a return package by today or tomorrow. ------------- 15 Cruze LT, 145K, for the wife 08 Uplander LS, 280K, broken again 08 Explorer EB, 248K, backup work car still looking for another something |
Posted By: torkair
Date Posted: 05-January-2011 at 5:56AM
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Ok, everythig should hook up just like it did with the old M block that was in there. I'll let you know when the package arrives as well.
------------- 72 Gran Torino "sport"- in progress 73 Ranchero GT- Q code-460/C6/3.25 open rear |
Posted By: Skinnys Garage
Date Posted: 05-January-2011 at 7:13AM
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If you're running single exhaust, the crossover pipe may need an adjustment. With the taller deck on an M, the width between the manifolds is greater than a Cleveland. If you're running duals, probably won't be a problem. ------------- Scott -'73 Gran Torino Brougham Past Torino's -'73 Q-code GTS, '76 Original PS-122 S&H, '73 H-code GTS, '73 Ranchero '71 Cobra 351 Auto, '70 351C Brougham 2dr HT, '71 351C Ranchero |
Posted By: occupant
Date Posted: 05-January-2011 at 12:30PM
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Awesome. Means I can run open manifolds up to the exhaust shop in Hillsboro and have them cut the Y-pipe out and replace it. Seeing as it's a '72 motor and doesn't need cats and I'm in a non-emission county so no one is going to peek under to look for any... ------------- 15 Cruze LT, 145K, for the wife 08 Uplander LS, 280K, broken again 08 Explorer EB, 248K, backup work car still looking for another something |
Posted By: stanman
Date Posted: 05-January-2011 at 2:43PM
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I think the difference in width should be small enough that you could squeeze it together with a pry bar or similar, or it might take a bit of heat to bend it. |
Posted By: torkair
Date Posted: 05-January-2011 at 6:18PM
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GET STRAIGHT PIPE!!! You know you want to!!!
------------- 72 Gran Torino "sport"- in progress 73 Ranchero GT- Q code-460/C6/3.25 open rear |
Posted By: occupant
Date Posted: 05-January-2011 at 11:47PM
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I'm definitely taking the cats off and replacing them with straight pipe, but I need the muffler and the single exhaust to stay put for now. Can't afford to spend another $300-$400 on this car just for audio. Later on, it'll definitely get done, Magnaflows, duals, H-connector, debating over an exit strategy. I could do turndowns just ahead of the rear axle, that would keep me from banging chrome tailpipes around the yard here. I could do a stock style pair of tailpipes where you can't see 'em but they're just before the rear bumper. I could do big pretty chrome pipes. But for now it'll be stock appearing and single. ------------- 15 Cruze LT, 145K, for the wife 08 Uplander LS, 280K, broken again 08 Explorer EB, 248K, backup work car still looking for another something |
Posted By: occupant
Date Posted: 07-January-2011 at 2:35PM
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CJ is back out. Mechanic noticed the front seal on the transmission was leaking so he wanted to change it before he bolted the engine down. So now it's the weekend and he's gone and my car is in the shop with no engine in it at all.
He thinks there's enough play in the pipe to make it fit, and if not, his helper can weld, and they said they'd match it up somehow, cutting out the cats, replacing with straight pipe a wee bit longer than the cats themselves, and it ought to work fine. He said he had that shop I was talking about charged him almost $200 for a similar pipe change on his truck (replacing the intermediate pipes from the mufflers to where it goes over the axle, only had two bends in it). He doesn't like that shop and says he'll charge $60 for the same work. It may not be pretty, but I'm not concerned about pretty, I'm concerned about function. I can always have something made when I get around to the AOD swap, because I'll want duals by then for sure. ------------- 15 Cruze LT, 145K, for the wife 08 Uplander LS, 280K, broken again 08 Explorer EB, 248K, backup work car still looking for another something |
Posted By: occupant
Date Posted: 11-January-2011 at 12:56PM
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CJ is back in. There's some minor issues but nothing keeping it from driving under its own power at this point.
1) The starter is the one off the 351M and it's pretty dang big. Big enough in fact that it touches the exhaust manifold flange on the passenger side there. So mechanic had to leave off the stud. That was the broken stud and it removed easy enough but he can't get another one in there unless I can find a starter with a smaller case, or a different manifold. It's pretty tight. It's also loud, but not disgustingly so, I like it. But I definitely need to get a non-cat Y-pipe and some other sort of passenger exhaust manifold (or screw the whole thing, get shorty headers and duals with Magnaflows and listen to the music....) 2) The A/C compressor and its bracket bolt on just fine but the idler pulley that keeps the belt from rubbing on the fan pulley won't go on at all. This is a deck height C vs M issue and I need to find a different set of A/C brackets. A/C will be off for now, which will leave me more room to work under the hood for a few months, anyway. 3) The mechanic bolted the bracket for the alternator and air pump on and forgot that the 351C doesn't use an air pump, so there's an air pump there but it's not hooked up and it will have no belt. I'll take the pump off later I guess, it's not in the way, not a big concern, just doesn't need to be there. 4) The support arm for the transmission dipstick is for the large pattern bellhousing and therefore doesn't really attach to anything, but I'm not concerned about this since it's not in the way of anything else. Just need to change the dipstick tube at some point unless I get around to the AOD swap sooner. 5) The top radiator hose won't fit from the 351M so I'm stuck with the flexihose from the 351C for now until I order a molded hose. 6) The carb that came with this engine actually works, but it's a 1405, manual choke, and the butterfly plate is missing. So it'll be REAL cold natured. But I'm ok with that as long as it runs out warm. 7) The oil pan on this engine is the 6-quart model and the drain plug is right there on the cross member. Too late to change it. Oil changes are gonna be messy. I might have a small portion of the crossmember cut out so it'll drain okay. 8) There is no 8. I don't know why I'm still making a numbered list here, because that's it, there's nothing else causing problems. Mechanic is going to kill some time until I get paid again Friday (I have the cash but want to wait for sensibility's sake) with a few minor projects (dash lights aren't working, left rear door handles need hooked up, driver window doesn't roll down, check rear axle fluid level and condition, and find the CVPI center cap he misplaced somewhere in the shop from my right front wheel ;) ------------- 15 Cruze LT, 145K, for the wife 08 Uplander LS, 280K, broken again 08 Explorer EB, 248K, backup work car still looking for another something |
Posted By: ilyes
Date Posted: 11-January-2011 at 2:52PM
i should do a list too  got so much to dodon't worry, it's just some minor stuff, you'd better stay warm inside so you'll be ready for the warmer day
|
Posted By: stanman
Date Posted: 11-January-2011 at 11:15PM
| re: 5) Can you change the thermostat housing to the 351M one so you can use your original rad hose? Or maybe it's easier to get another hose? |
Posted By: occupant
Date Posted: 12-January-2011 at 12:46AM
You know stanman, on second thought, I'm going to run over there in a couple hours and ask him about it...that 351M hose should fit fine if he's not putting the A/C on...and it was kinda sitting high anyway before so it should clear ok...you can see in this pic why it'd be in the way of the A/C hose if it were sitting higher...
Since the A/C mounts lower on the wrong bracket, the A/C hose sits lower, and it's in the way of the radiator hose. You'd think there would be room seeing as the water outlet is lower, but it doesn't work. Another possibility is to cut an inch or two off the end of the radiator hose so the curve starts lower and clears everything, but then I'd worry about fan clearance. ------------- 15 Cruze LT, 145K, for the wife 08 Uplander LS, 280K, broken again 08 Explorer EB, 248K, backup work car still looking for another something |
Posted By: stanman
Date Posted: 12-January-2011 at 1:12AM
| A few years back I put the 351CJ in my '78 F150 (which never came with a Cleveland, only 351M). Bought the T - housing and upper hose for 351M...problem solved. |
Posted By: Rockatansky
Date Posted: 12-January-2011 at 5:43AM
| Air Pump could be a bonus? i've been wondering if a stock air pump could be retasked as a crankcase vacuum pump. racers spend lots of hundo$ for a system |
Posted By: occupant
Date Posted: 12-January-2011 at 6:40AM
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Sure, if I was running a dry sump.
http://www.460ford.com/forum/showthread.php?t=144615 - Jon Kaase has something to say about it. I'm not sure what to do with it just yet, I may PIF it to someone who needs one, sell it on CL/eBay, or just hold onto it in case the Federales decide to bring back emissions testing on older cars. I'm definitely holding onto my A/C stuff, though. ------------- 15 Cruze LT, 145K, for the wife 08 Uplander LS, 280K, broken again 08 Explorer EB, 248K, backup work car still looking for another something |
Posted By: Rockatansky
Date Posted: 12-January-2011 at 7:13AM
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the same principal works just as well on a wet sump engine, better ring seal should make more power and/or efficiency
how hard would it be to run your PCV line into the pump to find out?
those smog pumps also find their way onto small engines as superchargers, they're not just a POS
|
Posted By: occupant
Date Posted: 15-January-2011 at 8:08AM
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Turns out the exhaust fits fine I guess. The engine runs WAY quieter than I expected it to. It was loud before because he wasn't done with it. With new donut gaskets, it's as quiet as my wife's Durango. UNTIL YOU STEP ON IT. This thing revs up really fast. I'm shocked. I can't believe how good this thing sounds tuned up right and running off tank gas instead of a plastic gas can and a few shots of ether. Windell had to Frankenstein up the carburetor. He use my carb, but used parts off his, a couple of gaskets, the butterfly valve, throttle and choke linkages, and some of the other fittings. But it's perfect now. Smooth as glass. Idles good, too, it's ever-so-slightly lopey form the cam, and it just jumps when you hit the gas. Wow.
There's still a few things to do. The old fuel pump from the 351M was leaking, which is what started this whole swap thing when I decided to seriously look for an engine. Well, the "new" fuel pump on the 351C looks great, doesn't leak, but also doesn't pump worth a damn. Windell got it to pump by hand but once back on the engine, it dies after ten seconds. So he put the old pump on for now with a catch tin under the pump to catch the fuel dripping when he shuts it off. He'll change the pump out Monday morning, slap the kickdown rod on the carb, and then put the hood in place and he's done. I will need to get an air cleaner that fits. The 351M one won't go at all without a spacer, and it's probably too tall with one to clear under the hood. So I definitely need something. Can't afford a proper CJ air cleaner. Probably get a regular 351C-2V one and not be flashy for awhile, or use a generic 14x3 setup until I find something I like. I also might need to re-do all the vacuum lines. One goes to the PCV on the driver's side valve cover and then it loops twice to fit on the front of the Edelbrock carb, so that needs cut shorter or something. The brake booster is running off the back of the Edelbrock carb, it's got plenty of vacuum, feels good, so no problems there. And then there's two ports blocked off at the firewall, but surprisingly enough, everything works. Even my dash vents go to the defrost, vent, and floor positions right. It wasn't hooked up right before, evidently. And I have two vacuum ports left over on the firewall tee for whatever reason. I don't know. But if everything works, I won't mess with it. Another thing I need to deal with is the AC stuff. Hoses all over the place under the hood and the compressor is in the trunk. I'd need a 351C bracket to put the compressor back on, but I think I'd rather disconnect the lines from the condenser and the evaporator, plug them up, and put the hoses away until I'm ready to do it all. Probably buy new hoses, new condenser, new evaporator anyway. That will probably wait until after I get an AOD swapped in. The wiring harness is slightly damaged from all the messing around with it. It was rubbing on the AC compressor and wore through so that needed redone and taped up. The ignition wiring from the 351M Duraspark is pretty good except up by the coil. I might need to get a pigtail or two off a junkyard car to make it right again. Also, the temperature gauge still doesn't work, so there must be a problem with the wiring, the gauge itself, or the voltage regulator in the dash cluster. Rockstanksky, I'll think about the smog pump as a vacuum pump thing, but as good as this thing sounds, I don't want to mess too much with a good thing except to polish it up and make a few minor details right. ------------- 15 Cruze LT, 145K, for the wife 08 Uplander LS, 280K, broken again 08 Explorer EB, 248K, backup work car still looking for another something |
Posted By: torkair
Date Posted: 15-January-2011 at 8:22AM
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I've got the majority of the engine wiring harness from a 74 Torino (same car I got my 400 from). I can send it your way if you'd like.
------------- 72 Gran Torino "sport"- in progress 73 Ranchero GT- Q code-460/C6/3.25 open rear |
Posted By: occupant
Date Posted: 15-January-2011 at 8:59AM
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I appreciate the offer but it's all spliced neatly and taped over for now. I may redo the tape and run plastic looms over it later. I have a feeling this will not be the last engine I put in this car since I'm keeping it until I die. If it dies, I can always repower it. If I die, my wife can do whatever she wants with it.
Pics and video to come when I pick it up Monday if weather permits. Been quite rainy here the last day or two and supposed to again tomorrow. The most important thing I'll need to do with it is put an air cleaner on. ------------- 15 Cruze LT, 145K, for the wife 08 Uplander LS, 280K, broken again 08 Explorer EB, 248K, backup work car still looking for another something |
Posted By: ilyes
Date Posted: 15-January-2011 at 11:00AM
| waiting for the pics, happy you got it running |
Posted By: stanman
Date Posted: 15-January-2011 at 11:25AM
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Not trying to be morbid, but if you get buried in your car your wife won't have to figure out what to do with it....only how to get a big enough hole dug to put it in!!
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Posted By: Rockatansky
Date Posted: 15-January-2011 at 7:06PM
| how do know if the bad fuel pump isn't pumping fuel into the crankcase? |
Posted By: occupant
Date Posted: 16-January-2011 at 5:53AM
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Simple. Pull the dipstick out and light it on fire. If it flashes quick then burns, there's gas in the oil. If it just burns, it's just oil. ------------- 15 Cruze LT, 145K, for the wife 08 Uplander LS, 280K, broken again 08 Explorer EB, 248K, backup work car still looking for another something |
Posted By: gpd294
Date Posted: 16-January-2011 at 11:48AM
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Alan, it sounds like you are well on your way! Is Wendell a friend of yours or just a shop you found nearby? Either way, I'm looking forward to seeing the pics of the new CJ!! ------------- Carlos....1975 Gran Torino Squire Station Wagon restored to look like a 1973 Torino Station Wagon my Dad bought new from McAnary Ford on June 6, 1973 in Gary,Indiana |
Posted By: occupant
Date Posted: 16-January-2011 at 3:00PM
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Windell is the mechanic in Malone. He's the only mechanic in this town except for the tire changers up at the co-op. He's worked on all our vehicles (what I don't do myself) since we moved here with the exception of oil changes. It's easier to do it myself at home (on my car) or take it to a quickie lube (wife's truck). His shop is about 3 blocks from our house. If we're stuck at home with a no-start situation, he comes by with a garden tractor and pulls us over to the shop.
It's going to look just like the 351M except for deck height, the lack of the AC being in there, and the different carb. I put the 351M valve covers on it because I don't like chrome valve covers, and the same accessories (PS, alt, smog pump) went right on, too. The driver exhaust manifold is swapped over as well. If I can space the carb/air cleaner up I can even put the 351M air cleaner back on. But I want one of the flatter ones. It's the go-pedal performance that will be the big change and I'll definitely shoot some video and get it up on YouTube to post links here. ------------- 15 Cruze LT, 145K, for the wife 08 Uplander LS, 280K, broken again 08 Explorer EB, 248K, backup work car still looking for another something |