First Time 460 Build Suggestions?
Printed From: The Ford Torino Page
Category: Powertrain Specific Forum
Forum Name: Big Block Engine Forum
Forum Description: 429 and 460 engines
URL: https://forum.grantorinosport.org/forum_posts.asp?TID=5511
Printed Date: 26-March-2026 at 5:01PM
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.06 - https://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: First Time 460 Build Suggestions?
Posted By: 72BoB
Subject: First Time 460 Build Suggestions?
Date Posted: 19-May-2011 at 2:26AM
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Ok, I’m putting myself out on a line here and listing everything I can think of for my 460 build, so sorry for how wordy this is. All input/criticism of my parts list is more than welcomed, and actually, I want to encourage you to pick apart my list and tell me if my money would be better spent elsewhere (Could I save any money here and there using stock or lesser parts, but still retain the survivability factor?)… This is for my 72 Torino, assuming 4000lbs., 3.08 rear highway gear (currently), 2400 stall, C6 automatic w/ shift kit. It needs to be streetable. I’m not looking for anything too radical. It isn’t a daily driver, but I want it to be able to if need be… Around 500hp would be nice… Bottom End: - Standard production 460 block - Machined stock cast crank - Eagle H-Beam rods 6605F3D (or should I save $120 and go for I-Beam 6605FP?) o http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ESP-6605F3D/ - http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ESP-6605F3D/ - Keith Black Hyperutectic Pistons KB138 +22 dish (or should I step up to forged?) o http://www.summitracing.com/parts/UEM-KB138KTM-030/ - http://www.summitracing.com/parts/UEM-KB138KTM-030/ - Comp Cam K-34-247-4 kit (XE274H grind w/ matching springs and hardware, timing chain, lifters, etc.) o 274 int./286 exh. o 0.562 int./0.565 exh. o http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-K34-247-4/ - http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-K34-247-4/ - I need help choosing an oil pump… o High volume, rear sump pickup, hardened shaft - Any suggestions for an oil pan? Top End - Kaase Super Cobra Jet heads (bare) - Stock SCJ sized valves, swirl polished (any suggestions) - Comp Cams Hi-Tech stainless rocker arms 1830-8 (full roller, 1.73 ratio, 7/16 stud) - Ford Racing M-6566-SCJ guidplates for 3/8in. pushrods - Edelbrock Performer RPM intake (or Weiand 8021, or Blue Thunder single 4) Misc. - Summit Street-Strip Ready to Run Distributor o http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-850306-1/ - http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-850306-1/ - Ford Racing High Volume Water Pump o http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FMS-M-8501-C460/ - http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FMS-M-8501-C460/ - Flexplate (suggestions?) - Balancer (suggestions?) So… Any suggestions? ------------- 1972 Torino |
Replies:
Posted By: Psquare75
Date Posted: 19-May-2011 at 3:01AM
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My limited knowledge says this. Get a custom ground cam, it's not any more $. There's a guy, Scott, on the 460ford.com board, who offers this. I think his place is called Re-incarnation Performance. I've read an HV oil pump is a waste on a street car. Performer RPM would be better in this case, I think Why not keep the Duraspark setup? Proven good to 700HP and 7000 RPM. Previously mentioned Scott recurves OEM distributors. I had mine done. For 500 HP a parts store flexplate would suffice IMO. I have one against my stroker engine, anyway. My RPM flexplate was out of round. Balancer? Again, OEM is fine. The CJ oil pan has a built in baffle and fits the Torino chassis. ------------- Paul 77 XR7 460/C6/3.00:1 *SOLD* 78 XR7 523/C6/3.5:1 79 F100 460/TKO500/3.25:1 'I also have some left over potatoes-I understand you can generate electricity from them'- Foote500 |
Posted By: 72BoB
Date Posted: 19-May-2011 at 3:08AM
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Well, I am starting from the bare block, so I pretty much need everything, distributor included.
I'll look into a stock Duraspark unit and a custom cam.
Any other opinions about an HV oil pump vs. standard? ------------- 1972 Torino |
Posted By: orlnslloyd
Date Posted: 19-May-2011 at 8:38AM
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The Super Cobra Jet heads have revised valve angles and locations to reduce cylinder wall shrouding and improved flow. Pistons have to match or be able to accept the machining required. Also need guide plates specific to them, you have listed the correct ones, and custom length pushrods.
------------- '72, GTSFB, 460, C6, 3.70 |
Posted By: madmaxtorino
Date Posted: 19-May-2011 at 11:59AM
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stock rods are plenty strong enough for 500 hp. ive used both oil pumps never noticed a difference on street car
------------- Allan Revelation 6:8 When there is no more room in Hell, the dead will walk the Earth. |
Posted By: lilpanther
Date Posted: 19-May-2011 at 12:10PM
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Here are some build's for you to go off of.
http://www.460ford.com/forum/showthread.php?t=119213 - http://www.460ford.com/forum/showthread.php?t=119213 ------------- Justin |
Posted By: 72BoB
Date Posted: 20-May-2011 at 1:57AM
Oh yeah, trust me, I started off using those guidlines for the basis of my build. I just joined the site so I cannot post this engine build thread on there yet.
I do like what they have in that post, but I really wanted to go more in depth with part #'s and such because I do not want to mess this up. That thread is just basic guidlines. ------------- 1972 Torino |
lilpanther wrote:Posted By: 72BoB
Date Posted: 20-May-2011 at 1:58AM
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Plus, I am also talking to Scott at Re-incarnation about a custom grind cam and matching springs that I might get instead of the Comp Cams kit, but I have been told the cam is going to be one of the last things that I select based on my parts... ------------- 1972 Torino |
Posted By: BackInBlack
Date Posted: 24-May-2011 at 2:55AM
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I've been told/recommended to use a Jon Kaase oil pump. Street is probably not required (<6000rpm), but under stress apparently the oil pump will crack near the mount. The Kaase pump is a heavier casting to remove that weakness. BTW, The big blocks basically have the same oiling system as the clevelands and if you want to rev it high...plan on oil system mods. I prefer forged pistons myself. However, if you never intend to put nitrous, superchargers, or any other power adders on later then KB pistons are a great choice. I've seen people use stock crank and peened/polished rods w upgraded ARP rod bolts and not have any reliability problems in the 500-600hp range. The bottom ends on the 460 are pretty stout in stock configuration. LOTS o torque.
------------- -John 1973 GTS |
Posted By: JimW
Date Posted: 24-May-2011 at 5:39AM
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Gears/usage will determine your build as well. No point in 6000 rpm power peak with 308 gears unless you're into the Maxton Mile.
What are your ultimate goals with the engine? Plan any future upgrades? Racing? staying with C6 trans?
What kind of street use do you anticipate? I drive my car with 4.00:1 gears and with the 460 with 4.33:1 gears as far as 50 miles to the track, annoying on the highway but around town a great gear. Most recently I had a 3.56 gear that was nice everywhere.
A cam in the mailto:230-240@.050" rel="nofollow - 230-240@.050 / .560 lift with those heads and the proper compression/carb/exhaust will be easily over 500hp..
Why not just shoot for the assembled P51's unless you are looking to do head work yourself?
I always used high volume pumps, only thing is they will drain a stock pan at high rpms.
I've run 460's and the 545 to 6500 with only a good oil pump if you want to live/make power at 7000 rpm, you're kind of leaving "streetable" behind..
By the way, by the time you buy rods, pistons and have the crank fully machined, you might be real close to just buying a balanced 514/521/532/545 stroker kit which you can option with the balancer and flexplate.
Just throwing some things out there.
Jim ------------- 1976 S&H Gran Torino 460/C6/4.33 13.05@105.6 545/C6/3.56 11.52@117.8 460/T56/4.00 cruiser www.torinocobra.com www.starskytorino.com https://www.hotrod.com/features/0702phr-1971-ford-gran-torino/ |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 24-May-2011 at 2:40PM
| I may sound stupid asking this question but I am not a mechanic so always wanted to know.Refering to a Camshaft I have seen variations in the duration and still have a simular lift .Some of the cams I was looking at for my 429 have low duration 230 and .530 lift and then have seen a slightly bigger lift like around .562 and have durations that vary from around the 270's to 280's.So when choosing a cam with a lift somewhere in the .560 or slightly higher but below .600 lift what is the better duration a cam with a high lift but lower duration or a cam with simular lift and slightly higher duration?how does the duration effect the hp that the cam produces?I kinda understand that the higher lift cams give you more hp but never really understood what the duration does.Kinda like Bob I am hoping for close to 500 hp but would be happy with around 425-450 hp.I have a 69 429 2v engine and it has an advertised hp of 320 stock.People say Factory Advertised hp is usually lower then what it really has.My engine has 10.5 :1 compression ratio and hoping to keep it close to that to run pump gas.I know bigger cc heads will ad hp but If I port the heads and have hardened seats installed might be all I can afford.Would like to find some DOVE heads but doubt that will happen. I know it is important to match your components and the cam lift size will determine what pistons you can use as the valves have to clear.Not sure what the stock pistons look like and how big of lift I can go without having to change the pistons.I know forged pistons would be stronger but don't know what i will be able to afford.Might just have to keep the bottom stock and get a cam, aluminum 4 barrel intake,600-650 cfm carb,headers and some head work and live with that.Would love to go all out but I know I won't be able to afford it and want to understand more about the cam specs so I can make a good decision |
Posted By: JimW
Date Posted: 25-May-2011 at 5:57AM
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Lift is nice because manufactures can't mess with it too much on specs, they use the factory rocker ratios. Your big concern there is matching it to the head flow characteristics and not exceeding your spring package / valve to piston clearance.
Duration (degrees of rotation the valve is open) is confusing because some manufacturers rate at .006, .001 or other for "advertised" duration, that's like the comp cams 270, 280, 292, 304 magnum cams, that's advertised duration. The duration at .050 is more reliable since it's a set starting and ending point. the 280 magnum, for example is 230 degrees of duration at .050.
Lift and duration results depend on the rest of the package, but the intent is that the more lift and duration (to a point) allow more air and fuel into the chamber for a bigger bang. Adding too much duration can result in losses because of overlap where both are open at the same time and you lose cyl pressure pressure, because of this, duration moves the power up in the rpm band. Lift can make power everywhere, but it can kill parts, and is wasted if the heads don't flow well at high numbers. More lift for the same duration is a better trade off than the reverse for the street, but flat tappet cams are limited by the ramp angle in relation to the lifter diameter, roller cams can go much steeper, but springs (and pushrods and rockers) become a problem.
As far as what's best for your situation? That's best left to the experts, anecdotal stuff will get you close, but you need to know the operating paramters of the engine to get it just right. (it goes way beyond the easy numbers into opening and closing timing, seperation of the two, duration/lift split, ramp angles, etc)
Easy way? Build it just like one someone already did where you can verify the results...
Get Scotty's porting guide (reincarnation high performance), use whatever factory heads you have, (D3VE's work very close to as well as C8, C9, D0VE's). You can use stock size valves and make your hp goals. Try to get a 460 crank and pistons for a little extra displacement too, never hurts.
Jim ------------- 1976 S&H Gran Torino 460/C6/4.33 13.05@105.6 545/C6/3.56 11.52@117.8 460/T56/4.00 cruiser www.torinocobra.com www.starskytorino.com https://www.hotrod.com/features/0702phr-1971-ford-gran-torino/ |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 25-May-2011 at 8:54AM
| Ok now I understand why the duration changed from years ago where they use to designate cams by Duration such as 270,280,292,304 now itks more about the lift at .050 which changes the advertised duration specs.So now it gets more confusing cause you have to figure out how they are listing the duration specs and explains why a cam with .530 lift can have a duration of 230 degrees cause the bigger lift cams use to be specified by the higher duration.Back in late 80's I put a cam in my 351C 2v which was a Erson 292 duration.i don't have the cam card or remember what the lift cause back then cams were listed by duration. My heads on my 429 are C9VE -A , does anyone know what size valves these heads have and what the cc's are? I was figuring on porting these heads to make them flow better cause unless I run across an unbelievable deal on some used heads I think I am gonna have to use the stock heads and do what I can.ULTIMATELY a set of Aluminum heads would be a better way to go but they are in the $2K range for big block Fords.I understand that too big of cam can hurt performance if you don't have big enough head flow.So even though I have a 2v engine what Cast heads should I keep an eye out for that are bigger then what I have now? Don't know if I can afford a 460 crank and Pistons or can even find some good used ones still worth using.When I did my Cleveland years ago for a 73 Torino I had I only did a cam,lifters,springs,pushrods,Performer intake,600 cfm Carter carband headers and kept the stock bottom end cause it only had 50K milesI have no idea of the actual miles on the 429 so should atleast go thru it and put fresh rings and bearings and make sure the pistons and rodss are ok and donKt need wrist pins or anything else cause if I put a bigger cam and 4 bbl intake and doe some head work and not touch the lower end I am gambling and it could break something especially when turning some higher rpms. Right now I can't afford to do anything but certainly want to learn more about the big blocks |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 25-May-2011 at 9:42AM
| Thanks Jim for taking time to explain the cam specs as I have been wondering about that for awhile.I think that is where some people go wrong is they want more peformance out of thier stock motor and buy a cam that has too much lift that thier heads can handle or maybe even have enough piston clearence. Certainly bigger is only better when it works with the other components.I may not be able to reach the hp range I want but certainly want to swap a aluminum 4 bbl intake and carb and go witha bigger then stock cam I guess I need to find out what the biggest lift cam I can go with the C9VE heads and stock pistons incase I am not able to upgrade. I know this is a 460 thread build but the 429 is in the same family and any and all info. Can help others when they want to build a big block Ford.I wasn't trying to thread jack Bob's thread or start another thread cause this info pertains to simular engine just different cubic inches.that is why I like this forum so much cause the members are very helpful with thier knowledge & A like to learn more about perfomance mods on engines as my expertise lies in the autobody field so I appreciate all the info kn this thread. |
Posted By: 72BoB
Date Posted: 26-May-2011 at 1:58AM
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Do yall know if a double sump pan will work in a 72? Or do I need to stick with a front sump? ------------- 1972 Torino |
Posted By: Psquare75
Date Posted: 26-May-2011 at 2:24AM
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Front. Not sure how a double sump would clear. ------------- Paul 77 XR7 460/C6/3.00:1 *SOLD* 78 XR7 523/C6/3.5:1 79 F100 460/TKO500/3.25:1 'I also have some left over potatoes-I understand you can generate electricity from them'- Foote500 |